My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Cornboy 555]

Asking.

Good Onya, Machine, i am so glad you are still living, so i take it that your feed is straight linear?.

If that is so you have some low amp readings there, great, the extra resistance has helped in that respect i think.

I still ask What Russians???

Have you made your brushes adjustable?

Lots a questions, i know, but that's just me!

Warm regards Cornboy.

[Midaztouch]

@machine

Keep fighting Buddy! You can do it!

Use that pulser!!!

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

[prochiro]

Bruches

Hay Machine,
Sounds like your getting there. Can you slightly bent the brush spring and see if that will better seat those things. One other question, do you have the brush assemblies set with two or more tiny and firm bolts such as 4-40.? Any weak spring or lateral holder movement will do that. I will mention this at this point, mostly for the benefit of other readers, Once the motor is assembled, line up one brush on a commutator bar and inspect the other brushes to see if the EXACT alignment is in all four brushes. If one is off a bit, you will see that coil as low output as that is a matter of volts and TIME.

Is your Monster running or not, I hope it is.

@Cornboy
You are full of surprises. I am also aware of the complexity of this task and the interrupt issue. What I am trying to do is use only one number,(average RPM) to send to an external PID control (self executable) program that does all the work and in turn sends only one number back to base Arduino program (New duty cycle). This is as non interpretive as I can get it at this time. A computer is needed then to run the dashboard and let you interact with Machine. A slick deal I think. Any Comments, anyone???
Dana

[machinealive]

@cornboy

I was not pulsing the motor, just trying to tune. I did not make the brushes independent, if things start to get close, I may have to, but hopefully not, I think seating is the answer, or extra spring.
I believe the Russians were L. Mandelshtam, and N. Papalexi, can't remember, I think Garret, or Lamare posted a the Dollard thread.
I was originally building motors with wound stators, was going to get to that setup, but needed a real solid housing. The aluminum rotor I built, I still think needs to be explored, with wound stators. I will eventually, build my dream motor. With aluminum rotor, and big fat wound stators, and caps in the rotors, spark gaps instead of brushes, like UFO was talking about way,way back. I will do that.

@midaztouch
Hopefully I'll get to try pulsing today, or tomorrow. That's great you're getting a motor.

@ Dana
I tried bending springs and exactly like you just said, use gate 1 to align, then wiggled to get them all as close as possible, tested each one individually, they seem as close as I can get them.
The monster needs 1 new fet. I have a pile of 10, 5 of which are toast, just have to sit down and test them, to see which ones are working.
I will get to troubleshooting the monster next. Hopefully I can get this working.

Dana, UFO, or anyone with an imperial, do you guys remember what rpms, and amp draw you were getting at constant 24v dc, single coils, or parallel.

What size wire are you using Kogs? Glad we will see another imperial running/testing soon.

Machine

[prochiro]

@Machine
I can not find my 12 volt test numbers but can find the 36 volt ones. P1 only on 36v does 4100.
Hitby13kv posted at #4345 this
"
The voltage was supplied from 1 to 4 LA batteries in series connected to
1, 2 or all 4 poles in parallel - resulting RPM listed.

- - - - - - 12V - 24V - 36V - 48V
P1 - - - - 660 - 1520 - 2340 - 3100
P1&15 - - 755 - 1615 - 2450 - 3264
P1-15
P8-22 - - 805 - 1625 - 2495 - 3330"
Now after UFO helped me straighten out the wiring order I do get 4100 where hitby got 2340.
Hope this helps in some manner.
Dana

[Cornboy 555]

?

Kogs---Cornboy----Dana, Guess they all sound similar!!!!

Funny Stuff, Regards Cornboy.

[iankoglin]

@cornboy

What size wire are you using Kogs? Glad we will see another imperial running/testing soon.

Machine

G'day Machine
Good to see you at it again
I am working on building the Monster Driver and when I get that done I will us it to drive the small motor I have then the larger 1000w "MY" motor when I modify it. In the meantime I will get my machinist friend to fit the 3 P56 Imperials i.e. turn the armature's down the Epoxy on the outside Fit the bearings some are loose and some are tight straight from the factory also make sure the commentators' fit snugly so I can place/move them in the right position. then I will wire them with 1mm diam. wire.
I am wading through all the posts to collect and read again all the posts associated with the Imperial so I get things right.
If I do not get things going soon I will be left behind

Kindest regards

Kogs Trying to keep up

[iankoglin]

Hay Machine,

You are full of surprises. I am also aware of the complexity of this task and the interrupt issue. What I am trying to do is use only one number,(average RPM) to send to an external PID control (self executable) program that does all the work and in turn sends only one number back to base Arduino program (New duty cycle). This is as non interpretive as I can get it at this time. A computer is needed then to run the dashboard and let you interact with Machine. A slick deal I think. Any Comments, anyone???
Dana

G'day Dana
It's good to see your progress I appreciate what you are doing
it's just that when the discussion started around using interrupts I was just bringing this point up before anyone was getting excited and try to do everything on just one little Arduino board

When I bought my first computer in 1975 I did not know anything about them and as you could not buy an operating system I learned Assembler and started to write my own I would not even attempt to write one today.

Kindest Regards

Always trying to be helpful

[Ufopolitics]

Alignment of Brush Housings

@cornboy

I was not pulsing the motor, just trying to tune. I did not make the brushes independent, if things start to get close, I may have to, but hopefully not, I think seating is the answer, or extra spring.
I believe the Russians were L. Mandelshtam, and N. Papalexi, can't remember, I think Garret, or Lamare posted a the Dollard thread.
I was originally building motors with wound stators, was going to get to that setup, but needed a real solid housing. The aluminum rotor I built, I still think needs to be explored, with wound stators. I will eventually, build my dream motor. With aluminum rotor, and big fat wound stators, and caps in the rotors, spark gaps instead of brushes, like UFO was talking about way,way back. I will do that.

@midaztouch
Hopefully I'll get to try pulsing today, or tomorrow. That's great you're getting a motor.

@ Dana
I tried bending springs and exactly like you just said, use gate 1 to align, then wiggled to get them all as close as possible, tested each one individually, they seem as close as I can get them.
The monster needs 1 new fet. I have a pile of 10, 5 of which are toast, just have to sit down and test them, to see which ones are working.
I will get to troubleshooting the monster next. Hopefully I can get this working.

Dana, UFO, or anyone with an imperial, do you guys remember what rpms, and amp draw you were getting at constant 24v dc, single coils, or parallel.

What size wire are you using Kogs? Glad we will see another imperial running/testing soon.

Machine

Hello Machine,

Well, great Machine you've got there now, excellent amperage my friend!

It is unbelievable what a few less micro millimeters in gauge, and a few more turns can do...and yes, it is all about balancing the magnetic fields there, to obtain the "Balanced Interactions"...per gates.

I am sure now...you will "Hit The Fan"...

Now Related to Spring/Brushes Alignment:

Machine, one thing that happened to me also... was related to the plate we have modified.. and the problem rises just because of a couple of mm...then the spring pressure will not be equal in all four gates...and between you and me (please, don't let anyone else know...)...Imperial Brush Springs are not too great either...they are too "soft"...and really do not make a good pressure from brushes to commutators.

So, the way I align them properly is as follows:

Get the Rotor/Armature off the Stator Frame, then get your modified brush plate with brush board on , in a very horizontal (use a bubble lever if necessary), set on a bench vise, get all brushes off the spring and out of housing, then slide rotor on the way it goes...and...loosen ALL Screws (but don't take them off all the way) that Mount Board to Plate.

Try to find or make out of aluminum or a very clean, polished and even metal strips, some fine pieces of equal size, say two inches ...to use them as Gap Filler Gauges, so, get some coarse and some very fine gauge...what you are doing is setting exact distances between the brushes housings ends and the commutator surface, therefore strips should slide between this two surfaces....start with coarse approach first on all four, then start one by one sliding the fine ones (you could also use the real Gap Filler Gauge strips, that is the ideal way...however, for four gaps to fill...you may need -at least- like three sets of them)

At simple sight, it is easy to notice if there is a big difference of this space between them four.

The good thing here...is that the mounting holes at brush boards are not round but elliptical...so it is adjustable...as I know you could always bore the hole a bit to obtain a "Swiss Accuracy"...


I believe your Machine Armature is perfect...what is making some difference in the RPM's and Amperage draw between Gates...I believe is the brush set up...delivering a low pressure on some sides...and too much on others...


Hope this helps you my friend, and great work as always!


Wish you a super duper testing!!


And please...don't be lousy with your cables wiring...set them pretty...use small tie straps...set different colors codes...for wires/straps...get "Artistic"......that way you and everyone will see better what we are all doing here...


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

Questions for ordering wire and bearings....

@ All

WIRE...

1.) Approximately how many centimeters or inches or feet of wire do I need per coil?

2.) I know that the enameled wire is the standard but are there any other wires that are reasonably priced with superior conductance?

3.) 18, 19 and 20.5 wire gauge are being used.
A.) Would you like me to use the 20 wire gauge?
B.) Which gauge will give me the most turns per coil?


BEARINGS....

Some of you bought higher rpm bearings from Grainger.
1.) Which high rpm Japanese bearings do you suggest?
2.) What rpm?

* Remember, at the end of testing, I will use the motor to replace the blown motor in my motorcycle, "The Fire Blade/AMEV1"*

Keep it CLEAN and GREEN
Richie

[iankoglin]

Hello everyone, You are right Machine those prices are incredible.
Will order UFO KIT as well, it will be good practise for me for larger machines, and UFO will supply lots of info for this one.

Thanks UFO and thanks Machine.


Regards Cornboy.

G'day Cornboy
Before I start assembling and wiring my UFO Kit I am reading through all the posts reviewing all that has been done/discussed about the P56 motor.

How are you going with your UFO KIt Did you buy one?
Kindest Regards

Kogs wanting to Keep up

[machinealive]

Comrades,

More testing, tres cool.

All testing at 36 v constant DC.

Test #1 energize 1 gate, outputs open then add cap and lamps to output

------------------RPM---amps
Gate 1----------2312---8
Add cap/lamps-1882---15
Gate 2----------2220---9.9
Add cap/lamps-1870---17
Gate 3----------2120---9
Add cap/lamps-1775---15.8
Gate 4----------2190---9.2
Add cap/lamps-1835---15.6

Test#2 two gates in parallel

------------------RPM---amps
Gate 1&3--------2605--8.7
Add cap/lamps--2360--15.6
Gate 2&4--------2635--9.5
Add cap/lamps--2450--16

Test#3 four gates in parallel

Rpm--2920
Amps-9.1

Amps are not going up as voltage is increased, nor by adding gates in parallel.

@ UFO, thanks for tips on brush alignment, wow man, I appear to gain 1000 rpm, for an extra 120 watts, if this is a linear relation, I know 2 points are hardly enough data, we can see where this is going. 108 volts @ 10 amps to get to. 9000 rpm.
Say amps double when gen loaded. 2000 watts.

@ midaztouch

What if small wire allows lower amps but more volts/more batteries, not good for a bike race but easier to pulse. But large ga wire allows more amps so lower volts/less batteries, but then you must build the monster, to pulse all four gates. Just thinking out loud.
This motor build you are going to do, is all r&d still, don't be disappointed if you have to rewind several times to get what you want.
Pick in between what's been done, so we get more data. It will help you and us,all more, I bet, if we get as many different ga motors put together as we can.

I still have 2 more days off, tomorrow I am going to hook up 1 monster to output, and try 24 v. Cross fingers guys, I can't imagine amps in going lower and RPMs going higher, but I will flip if it does.

Machine

[Cornboy 555]

Oy, Oy, Oy.

G'day Cornboy
Before I start assembling and wiring my UFO Kit I am reading through all the posts reviewing all that has been done/discussed about the P56 motor.

How are you going with your UFO KIt Did you buy one?
Kindest Regards

Kogs wanting to Keep up

Hey Kogs, no i didn't buy UFO imperial kit, it was tempting, but to scratch build a motor, takes a lot of funds, and i couldn't justify the extra expense.

Glad to see a fellow Aussie back in the game, thanks KOGS.

Warm Regards Cornboy.

[Cornboy 555]

Good job Machine.

Hey Machine, Those RPM and amp draw are fantastic, maybe you had a shorted coil, or two, with most of your previous testing?

I was concerned about the heavy sparking with your previous build, although, it seemed to be very ladylike, those beautiful purples and greens.

You must be feeling very relieved, that your new build is performing, it will be interesting to see what happens when you pulse it, and also when you load it.

How the hell do you get two Days off, i want to order some of them!.

It just occured to me! The other day i was watching a video on the release of a new outrunner toy motor for toy RC planes, and they seemed proud of the fact that, it only drew 18 AMPS with a medium propeller attached, and went down to 12 AMPS with a smaller prop.

This thing was tiny--- WTF.

Also something that happened about a year ago, i called into the machine shop that i get to do machining for me if i can't handle the size or can't afford the time, and parked outside was a 1 ton ute, with a mother of an Electric motor on board.

This motor was gigantic, it had a 2" shaft, and the ute was dragging it's bum on the ground, so when i wen't inside, i had to find the owner and ask Questions. (how unusual).

The owner said it was to replace a motor that was a HUNDRED years old, in a factory, but the new one was three times the size, for the same job, so they needed mods to fit it. he said that it was built to the new EURO standard.

Soo heres me thinking that this massive 2 and a half foot diameter, .5 ton motor must have at least 250 HP, The owner said it was a 70HP motor!!!!

A series wound 11" DC brushed Traction motor is more HP than that---WTF.

Maybe someone more knowledgable on electric motors could explain!.

Seems like there's some Extraordinary Wastage going on out there.

@ Midastouch, the smaller diameter the wire is the more turns per coil pair, and the more resistance, you will achieve.

The same size bearings but with a C3 rating is what you need.

Regards Everyone Cornboy.

[Midaztouch]

Batteries....

@ machine and all

I look forward to winding the motor several times

Battery choices....@ 100 batteries Cylindrical type = Max voltage 370v

1.) Panasonic 18650 3400mah 3.7volts 47.5grams *industry best*

2.) Panasonic 18650 3100mah 3.7volts 46.5grams. *Standard*

3.) Trust Fire 18650 3000mah 3.7volts 46.?grams *Best deal*


I can make the battery pack various sizes. I ONLY want to use a pulsed motor!

The first race is in August. Its a 6hr. endurance race.
Second race is under 25 mins at the end of August.

Wire Gauge suggestion?

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie