My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[JohnStone]

Good MOSFET ideed!
For beginners: When used along coils it will suffer on spikes. Protection required by snubber network or/and overvoltage protection.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello John Stone!

Good MOSFET ideed!
For beginners: When used along coils it will suffer on spikes. Protection required by snubber network or/and overvoltage protection.

Hello John!

Could You design an Oscillator that would provide the Four Phase Signals to the Four MOSFET's Gates like I showed on Diagram?

Probably we need Two IC Oscillators per Two Phase, like one Master and Second a Slave Mirror but ahead on Time...but have not done any diagrams as of now on this.

We do not need a Sensor Phase...nor Sensors for Positioning here...brushes-commutators will do that job.

And sorry, I know this topic belongs to the other thread...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[JohnStone]

Yes well! We will team up

Properties:

• Variable frequency
• Every frequency cycle will be devided into 4 equal time slots
• Every time slot will instantiate on a separate output
• Programmable dead time between end of one time slot and begin of next time slot

Concept:
I (and others) recommend an arduino microprocessor. The cheapest component out of this family is arduino nano.
Alternative: Tosduino (compatible)


@Nico: Will it be possible to modify your existing oscillator program to 4 individual outputs with intermediate dead time?

Program download: Stay cool! Any program shared can be downloaded via USB within seconds. After this procedure the micro can perform without PC connection.
Additional options for later use: LCD display, analog and digital inputs and any future function by program download.

Power for micro: Either from PC via USB or I recommend a socket charger (7...12V) . Keep the micro well separated from you wild beasts of drivers.

The micro ports can source/sink 20mA only. But we can drive optos via a resistor directly.

The optos shall drive the circuit recommended by Lester 444.

Please recall that optos are not fast and in Lesters curcuit the 555 reconditions the signal and at same time the two transistors amplify the current in order to kick the FETs for fast switching.
If you have a FET stage being driven via resistors directly it will not work properly. Add Lester's circuit with 555 in very proximity to gates!

Sorry: No circuit diagram yet because having prblems with my circuit program.

@ALL: It is essential to understand that in datasheets absolut maximum rationgs are meant as ABSOLUTE MAXIUM! No forgiving at all! i.e. Ufo mentioned those fried FETs above to be suitable up to 300Watt heat dissipation each. Right but under the condition of ABSOLUTE OPTIMIZED cooling - any further cooling attempt will not reduce the internal heat. It is the heat those casings can drop to outside environment.
Same at Voltage or amps. Additionally you shuld understand that you are not allowed to operate the components at absolute maximum values all at same time.
You are not allowed to operate a component at absolute maximum voltage. Any intermediate voltage spike (possible at short leads as well - they are inductors!) can damage the component or degrade it causing premature failures.
Same at absolute maximum current for caps (tantalum, electrolitics). i.e. We lost once a whole production lot of a day (700 000€) because a battery of caps were overloaded (pulsed current). The weakest cap died and the others died in a subsequent domino effect. They got hot, dissoldered and short cicuited with power. The whole production lot being in burnin procedure burned to ash! We expected another success from "burnin".
JohnS

[sampojo]

Hello Sampojo,

Ok, make a test on Rotor...
Test first P1, by feeding from top-bottom connecting terminals...and use your compass to check you are getting North-South where they are supposed to be...
Do that with the rest...P2, P3, P4 and last P5...
Mark them as you go ...and make sure you DO NOT TURN the rotor while doing tests, so always same positive side...

You should have problems there...in the Pairs.
Motor is locking up...and no run...

Second tests:

Test for Ground leak on each with continuity meter...one element and ground...on all five.


Let me know...

Regards

Ufopolitics

Ran thru the polarity tests, could not detect discrepancy. I will try to post pics and vid, complete ground test yet to do. But I notice no easy way to communicate precise winding steps and its all in the very first step. I am suspicious if I am off by one pole. Since everything flows from there and looking at the last winding, only one that can inspected with any confidence, I think I need to quantify the jump from the commutator crossing under the shaft to the first winding. I want to number all the poles of the motor, expressing coil pairs N & S by their pole combinations and then label the commutator positions by the poles they are aligned with. Then I think you can tell me if I am off one. but time for some sleep now.

[Ufopolitics]

Video Guides...and PDF...

Ran thru the polarity tests, could not detect discrepancy. I will try to post pics and vid, complete ground test yet to do. But I notice no easy way to communicate precise winding steps and its all in the very first step. I am suspicious if I am off by one pole. Since everything flows from there and looking at the last winding, only one that can inspected with any confidence, I think I need to quantify the jump from the commutator crossing under the shaft to the first winding. I want to number all the poles of the motor, expressing coil pairs N & S by their pole combinations and then label the commutator positions by the poles they are aligned with. Then I think you can tell me if I am off one. but time for some sleep now.

Hello Sampojo,


Take a look at this video...

Asymmetric DC Motor - Winding Question - YouTube

He starts at 2:00 to simulate the winding (and He is got it correct), the only problem He had was the Brushes positioning were wrong.

I was looking for the PDF that Member Interdesign (Alvaro) created...but no luck...can not find the link...

Please IF Anyone have it could they post it here?


EDIT 1 : I FOUND THEM ALL

PDF by Member Interdesign (Alvaro) is here:
ASYMETRIC WINDING.pdf

PDF by Member Anoop is here:

UFO MAEM part 1.pdf



Thanks and regards


Ufopolitics

[JohnStone]

Four phase oscillator posted for discussion on the other thread.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello to All,

Hello to All,


This is basically of Main Concern and very IMPORTANT to all Replicating the Imperial P-28...

Like I wrote before this Motors have a small draw back...mechanically...and that is their rear bearing design, originally comes with a very cheap Chinese brand...IT MUST BE REPLACED by a Faster Rated and better built bearing.

I got a Japanese/Canadian Made, that will go up to 18,000 RPM's...

HOWEVER, I got it "a bit too late"...when I was testing it against the rear aluminum housing(after mounting it on shaft)...found out it had too much play at outer housing walls...

What happens with cheap bearings...cheap steel, bad craftsmanship...is that even not looking bad...or having any play...when taken to above their spec's ratings...they tend to lock...therefore turning the router ring also...and wearing out the housing walls.

Imperial uses this small and cheap rear bearing design on this motor...cause it simply will only go up to 2500 RPM's...But We will be spinning it at 7500 to 9000 RPM's...serious speed here guys!

Imperial Machining of their housings is some how a bit loose from factory...so it does not need to be pressed in at front or rear Caps...making the assembly easier...NOT GOOD FOR US EITHER!

But everything have a solution...and it is always GOOD, to take care of it before turning your Machines On at High Speed

I had another Rear Housing...so I compared play...and is nothing like the one I have been using...normally is pretty tight...but could be pressed in by hand.

Now, what I recommend to do...is to drill at the Bearing Housing Walls(without the bearings on, of course)...a small hole positioned at 180º apart...and make thread for a small locking Allen bolt (like the ones they use for the Key locking at pulleys)...and once we have the Rotor Mounted, we could tighten them on EQUALLY numbers of turns at each time...securing the Bearing Outer Ring from turning...and of course...not tightening THAT MUCH...so we bent the bearing ring...

Now the SECOND IMPORTANT thing here is...

Once you mount this motor and tighten both long bolts...IF You press the front shaft in...it will move towards the rear.

Under operation, when coils get energized...Rotor will move to rear...but every time it stops...it comes back out...meaning, rubbing inside rear bearing housing in and out...not good

This effect happens because badly aligned Permanent Magnets related to Armature Core...so Magnets, since they are not glued in...could be pushed back just a bit...to avoid this forward rear play.

That is why they come with an expansion/spring washer...but again...for our New Asymmetrical Motor Performance...this washer will NOT work...is too thin...

So...besides aligning Stators (Permanent Magnets) in perfect place...what we do is, before turning on those Allen Bolts we installed at rear housing...WE MUST PRESS THE FRONT SHAFT IN towards the rear and hold it...then tighten the Allen-Rear Bearing Locking bolts.

When this Rotor gets the FULL BLAST RPM's...whether 7500 or 9000...its rear end vibrates too much, In-Out...and wobbling...hitting the magnets...and braking the wires basically at outer Pairs...P28/P27...IF You do not do what I am writing here.

I mounted Motor today...and tested for the 48V Battery Bank (8900-9000 RPM's)...and I did not like the noise...so I stopped...just in time P28 North Coil was about to brake...it only got scratched heavily to almost making it a flat plate...on three wires...but they did not touched nor broke...thanks GOD!(It would have been a REAL Nightmare...to rewind it now all covered with Epoxy... )...and I was able to re set re epoxy the damaged wires ...

So I will keep you posted of further fixes/patches...


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[prochiro]

UFO
I was at our motor shop today to get the rotor dip done as everything checks out. I mentioned the potential RPM and they shook there head saying that we need ceramic bearings. I have not had time to follow up on this but any bearing that is not rated for the speed we are doing will drag and slip. Even with the screw stop, wear and damage to motor will result if one goes over rated level. I do know that those bearings are not cheap. I will check for prices on Saturday. Granger will have what we need.
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

UFO
I was at our motor shop today to get the rotor dip done as everything checks out. I mentioned the potential RPM and they shook there head saying that we need ceramic bearings. I have not had time to follow up on this but any bearing that is not rated for the speed we are doing will drag and slip. Even with the screw stop, wear and damage to motor will result if one goes over rated level. I do know that those bearings are not cheap. I will check for prices on Saturday. Granger will have what we need.
Dana

Hello Dana,

Yes Dana, They are right...but as you said, ceramic bearings are like "Superconductors World"...

Grainger may have them...just don't hold your breath when they tell you the prices...they are too expensive...for everything. Lastly I have checked for a universal fixed joint...Two Parts with key...they wanted $161.00...
Then the Shunt I've got...they have it for like 50.00...I got it for 35.00 and same brand/same spec's...Simpson 100 A.

I know the speed is too high for this Motors...but realize we will not be operating them at that speed once they engage with Mecc Alte...or when we will be pulsing them...

The front bearing is holding on great so far, as the front cap is steel...and not aluminum...the main illness is the rear one and aluminum housing...so may be just find price on that one..


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Donald Haas]

Hello Donald,

You have a Ten (10) Pole Rotor...right?
So You have two ways to wind it Asymmetrically...
1-Dual Pentagons
2-P10 Configuration

The Pentagon design requires less wire...10 Coils.
The P10 takes 20 Coils Total...

So, it does depends...the Pentagon you could afford to use a coarser wire...not on P10 Format.

Dual Pentagon is not as fast as P10 is, but it has great Torque.

So You decide there...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi UFO,

I decided to go with what I had on hand.
P10 winding with 24 turns of #28 Per side.

avg 1.5ohm per pair.

The winding is finished.

I'll probobly use super glue in the slots to meake sure the wire stays in.

I cut the case on my lathe and I have a friend that worked in a fabrication shop for 20 yrs. He'll weld it for me.

There's no way to see the brushes when putting the motor together.

I'll probobly make some holes so I can see the brushes and and get them in place. The springs behind the brushes fly out if the brushes are not held in place. Need a plan to hold them in place until they are held apart by the comm.

Any hints?

Couple days and she'll get the smoke test.

bro d

[Ufopolitics]

Not Super Glue!

Hi UFO,

I decided to go with what I had on hand.
P10 winding with 24 turns of #28 Per side.

avg 1.5ohm per pair.

The winding is finished.

I'll probobly use super glue in the slots to meake sure the wire stays in.

I cut the case on my lathe and I have a friend that worked in a fabrication shop for 20 yrs. He'll weld it for me.

There's no way to see the brushes when putting the motor together.

I'll probobly make some holes so I can see the brushes and and get them in place. The springs behind the brushes fly out if the brushes are not held in place. Need a plan to hold them in place until they are held apart by the comm.

Any hints?

Couple days and she'll get the smoke test.

bro d

Hello Donald,

Nope, Super Glue dries as a crystal...but can not stand heat...then it chips off taking the enamel insulation off...plus it "smokes" bad fumes..

Try any epoxy resin, even Non Metallic J&B Weld will do...

Ok, related to brush alignment...look at drawing...it shows the best positioning for Motor Input related to P-1...It is the neutral position, meaning Repulse/Attract are balanced there.

[IMG][/IMG]

You could move brushes CCW and set it for more Repulsion Mode (stronger)...or CW for attraction...
Look at Coils Bisectors related to Stators Bisectors (Dead Center)...that gives you the idea...and the closer you get North P1 to center of North Stator...the stronger motor will run based on repulsion...AS LONG AS YOU do NOT pass that line to the other side of stator center bisect.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[iankoglin]

Kogs ZY1020F 1000 watt motor Build

G'Day UFO
I have stripped down one of the 2 Chinese ZY1020F Motors I bought
I am also trying to purchase the endcap with the Brushes and Brushholders and an extra commutator.
It Is much the same as the one John stone purchased
It has 10 poles 4 stators and 4 brushes I want to run this motor in a Tricycle I am going to build
I have built the larger coil to use with the controller just like the Happy motor you displayed on MMGMIRE List I have on order the parts to make the controller with the mods John stone is showing us that is the caps and extra 555 timer circuit to drive 2 or 4 mosfets each and am going to do a test with both motors by having them physically mounted in the Trike and therefore I want to run this motor forwards and backwards

As you had the bosh motor in a scooter and they need to also run in Reverse I imagine it is just a matter of reversing the wires from the controller to the motor.
I do not want so much the speed as the torque and am also wondering as on most of your wiring diagrams you show the direction the motor is to run is it OK just to reverse the wiring to reverse the motor on these motors.

I really appreciate all your effort and all the input from all those contributing in helping us to do these motors.

Kindest Regards


Patiently waiting for parts

[magnetO]

Hello Ufopolitics,

may I ask you a questions, please?

[In a symmetric DC-Motor there is one pair of commutators brushes (+-) for each pair of stator poles (N-S). In every slot of the commutator are two wires inserted. So the stator consists of a endless loop of wire, a endless loop of coils. In every moment of the running rotor, one half of coils (say 0°-180°) are series connected, the other half of coils (180°-360°) are series connected. Both series circuits are parallel between +brush and -brush, all the time.]

In your Asymmetric DC-Motor there are TWO pairs of commutator brushes for each pair of stator poles. Motor brush pair is (fires at) upper commutator(+) and lower commutator(-) (say top dead center ~0°), and Generator brush pair is upper commutator(-) and lower commutator(+) (~180°).


How many wires run in each commutator slot?
(Symmetric DC-Motor has two wires in each commutator slot).


Best Regards
magnetO

[JohnStone]

My understanding is that the timing of a motor can be optimized for one turn direction only. It is essential for max effitiency to account for exact angle, rpm, load .... This includes that reverse turn will be much more ineffitient.
For your application the reverse action needs not to be effitient because of rare use.
Ufo will tell you if optimized symmetric motors turn reverse at all. I have no such motor being ready for test now.

Please post if you have a source for extra parts for MY... motors.
I have one 1020 (1000W) and one 1016 (300W). The brush plates are the same. Unfortunately the shaft at front differs in diameter (12mm vs. 10mm)

[iankoglin]

G'Day UFO
I went to the local 100K away Motor rewind firm today to get some insulation paper for lining the armature on my 1000 watt motor also to see where I could have my armatures balanced and as I was explaining the mishap with the speed of the motor you had to drive the Mecc Alte head he questioned me about the speed so high and when I got home I looked up the specs and it showed

The Mecc Alte S16W 2 pole specs say that for 230v 50 Hz the revs need to be 3000 and for 129v 60Hz the revs need to be 3600

Please explain why we need the motor to go so fast

Kindest Regards


Always thinking and learning