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  • Turion

    Turion:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    If the Upper Comm Motor Input brushes are Positive, then The Generator Brushes for upper comm are Negative, never Positive. Generation is always "dependent" of Input.
    However the connections are not wrong though, so I will try:
    1) Trying to adjust Generator Brushes (if possible, without messing up your Motor Brushes.
    2) Try swapping the Jumper between Gen (-) and Gen(+) as also the Output of Generator, direction of rotation affects which is a better set up.

    I have explained about this Issue on the best Gen Angles for brushes depending on rotation...

    Regards


    Ufopolitcs
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 02:29 AM.
    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

    Comment


    • Vacuums cleaners

      Originally posted by prochiro View Post
      Hi All,
      Hi UFO,

      After thinking about those vacuum cleaner motors, I called my small town vacuum cleaner repair facility and guess what, they had a back room full of vacuum cleaner motors that have been taken out of service. I got three kerbys, a few other types but larger (all in pairs)and some smaller head motors that are about three inches diameter. Thay said that free was a good price and that if I wanted more just come and get there junk. Its not junk to me. All are universal motors and in great shape. Thay said that when a kerby comes in and the customer finds that a new motor costs over five hundred dollars that they just buy a new machine. Now just think of how many small town vacuum cleaner repair stores are arround you. Every where.
      Dana

      Thanks for that. I do electrical service calls for "Godfrey's"(they sell vacuum cleaners in OZ). I'll asked them when i next get a job to do.

      Comment


      • Hey Bob!

        Originally posted by bobfrench@fastmail.fm View Post
        UFO,

        I saw your new winding and have ordered two motors to try it out. It makes perfect sense to me.

        You told me earlier that to get the motor and generator to be self-sustaining I would need a 4 brush, 4 stator motor. If my 20 pole, 40 element, 2 brush, 2 stator Baldor 3330 motor was wound this new way would it still most likely fall short of being self-sustaining. It was manufactured with 18AWG windings. What gauge wire should I use when winding the new way?

        I put a pic of the rotor in Photobucket:

        Pictures by bobfrench - Photobucket

        Can't wait to try the new winding!!!

        Thanks my friend,

        Bob
        Hello Bob,

        Bob I am sorry I did not answer any sooner, I was thinking all possibilities you had there...

        1) You could scale it "linearly", (which is the easiest way) meaning, converting your 20 poles into a Five Poles, just like the small RC Motor, by dividing it into five sections of Four Poles (that would be your Upper "Y"or outer Pentagon of all Norths on Diagram)...then the two poles centered opposed at 180, to each respectively Four Poles would be your lower "Y" Coils or South on Diagram. Then Joining Commutator Elements to divide them in Five Segments above, five below.

        2) Or you could scale it Modular, meaning inserting two or four times that diagram within the armature, depending on your fragmentation of the 20 poles...which will render a very robust Machine...but not "that simple" to scale it Man!...you will have to lay it out on CAD, because there you will have not just Two Opposed Pentagons like in a Five Pole small RC motor...And Bob, am tied up for a few weeks...can't get to help you there right away...sorry!

        As for the wire, I would try a 20 awg in order to fit as much wire as possible there as to also have a decently thick gauge.


        Regards


        Ufopolitics
        Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 04:54 AM.
        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

        Comment


        • UFO,

          Thank you for the info. This gives me the direction I need for now. I will try to do the more robust winding.

          Good luck with everything you're doing and we'll keep on at it!

          Bob

          Comment


          • Asymmetrical Quad Pentagons Design

            Hello to All,

            Here is shown a more robust application for the previous Dual Pentagon Five Poles Design.
            Note I have "bent" the "Y" Pattern in order not to create conflict of being counter at 180 degrees at Motor or Generator Stages.


            [IMG][/IMG]

            Motor Stages on top right occur simultaneously, I have separated them for better analysis, and join them at > right upper. However Generator Stages could be Timed at different Angles-Time...bending this way the Fourth Dimension here...Time.
            Note that Generator Stage "Stabilizes and Assist" the Motor Throw Out Angles making them balanced, based on "Compensated Momentum Weights".


            And here, what I am trying for you guys to do...is also be able to "see" , to visualize those Magnetic Patterns...in order that you could also "play" with them in your further concepts into more clever machines.

            Electromagnetic Patterns are rendered here in a Two Dimensional Graphic...However, in reality they develop in a Three Dimensional world, as also this Patterns are like Distorted and Blurry by Rotation...leaving kind of "Ghost Traces" between them...


            Regards


            Ufopolitics
            Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 10:21 PM.
            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

            Comment


            • 22 pole info

              Hi All
              I thought that at one time a 22 pole was mentioned and search does not show anything. Does anyone else recall it and if so where is it. If not I am lost about all the 22 pole motors I have. Some are all set for winding now.
              Dana
              "Today's scientist have substituted mathematics for experiments and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
              Nikola Tesla

              Comment


              • Please, don't drawn on Me...in a Glass of Water...LOL

                Hello Prochiro and Turion,

                @Prochiro:

                Hello Dana,

                So far that I recall...I have never heard of a 22 Poles here...

                Now on the 22 Pole, how many Stators, how many brushes?
                I wrote before that just the "# of Poles" will mean absolutely nada...

                Now the P-12 could extend to more Poles, like I did when I designed Turion's Razor Motor based on P-16...As also Sebosfato which is an 18 Poles. (by the way I never heard of Fabio again..?)
                But this designs MUST be taken into a CAD and rotate them, check them out...to "see" any possible conflicts.

                @Turion,

                Hello Dave,

                The 28 Poles is divisible by Four, resulting in Seven (7) Poles on your Quadrant...again, how many Stators?...Would Seven Poles "fit" within Stators?...or will take more Area in the Pattern?
                Now, you could try to expand the P-12 into a P-28 there and see what happens...or apply the BOSCH Motor (Coils in Pairs right next to each others) and see there...
                The Seven Pole that Pmazz has built... is also running excellent...That Config could also be expanded into a 28 Pole...at Four Poles Coils...reminding you that 4X7=28...

                See how many possibilities You had already there...for your 28 Poles?


                And for all others...

                I can not be "dedicated" to solve "riddles" every time someone finds a different type of Poles configuration and start a "process" that anyone of you, could perfectly do...just like Me.
                I am here to set the Basics, the Fundamentals to "Take Off" on your own...I am rendering simple numbers like Three (3), Five(5) and even Seven (7) Poles , as even 12 Poles...configurations...

                And it will be very obvious this basic and primary numbers could be scaled up into "divisible of" bigger "Modular Systems"...

                More "Hints"on Design: Poles in Armatures are DIRECTLY RELATED to the NUMBER and SIZE of Your Machine Stators, You can NEVER wind Coils that are BIGGER THAN Stators...or TOO SMALL that Stators won't even "notice" when Armature coils are energized...so there MUST BE A BALANCE between Armature and Stators Fields, always...Even though in Asymmetrical Systems, You have to also consider that the "Generating Side" Coils are going to be "Compensating" the Rotation.


                That is the WHOLE IDEA Here...


                And so on, and on, and on...(like the Energizer Bunny...)


                Regards to All



                Ufopolitics
                Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 08:09 PM.
                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                Comment


                • A Message of "Concern"...

                  Hello to All,

                  I wanted to share this "incident" that happened last night...

                  I was working on the Quad Penta Design...and when I tried to enter Photobucket...it will not allow me to go into my Albums, completely blocked on me, and nothing like "I forgot my password" or the like...I have them saved in ALL my Navigators...

                  It was a Peer Issue, where My PC was not "communicating" with Photobucket Network Protocol based on a "Certificate Validation"...

                  I know better than that...I program PHP, as also other Programs related to Networking Engineering and Servers Database like Apache, My SQL and the "works"...So there was such a conflict that I had to reset all passwords and STILL, it did not work...

                  Finally this morning was able to solve that "Issue"...and load that Diagram...

                  ALL I wanted to say...is the following:

                  Please, record and save everything written here.
                  Go into my Photobucket and download all you want, is free...as also all my videos in You Tube.
                  Save them in a secure place.

                  Let's "assume" (Thing I don't like to do) that it was a Casualty, some "Population Networking Momentary Breakdown"...but it is better to be in the "Safe Zone"...than be lost for ever.

                  As also it would be great that We ALL, will be able to STILL be "In Contact" ...in the event that everything could be completely "Wiped Out of the Picture" one day in the morning...it could happen Ladies and Gentlemen.

                  You got my email... ufopolitics at gmail dot com, and PLEASE DO NOT write here on this Server Internal Mail, because it is limited and I have to keep deleting very nice messages to keep making space...

                  Thanks and Regards


                  Ufopolitics
                  Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 08:31 PM.
                  Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                  Comment


                  • Hi All,
                    I am back agin in the civilisation. Struggling to follow all posts I missed in the meantime. You were very busy :-) So bear with me - I will be silent for some time.
                    Just some ammendments:
                    A: You discussed the torque and power measurement.
                    1. see The basic idea of this guy is to mount the unit under test on an the flange of an old crancshaft with a bearing. The crank presses a normal scale for torque measurement and an optical meter counts for revolutions per minute. Regard for alternatives mentioned in discussion contained in that page.
                    2. Is there out there a guy being able to program micros? This is a power test stand for an electric bike drive. see

                    B: Your suggestion for a motor from a vacuum cleaner motor is marvelous. They have a long shaft on one side and the bearing / brusch holder can be mounted on both sides.
                    Question: The count of poles needs to be devidable by 3 or 5? Right?
                    Last edited by JohnStone; 08-22-2012, 09:04 PM.
                    Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                    Comment


                    • Great!

                      Originally posted by Turion
                      The 28 pole only have two stators, so that seven fours should work.

                      Dave
                      Dave I responded your e-mail and ask you, related to the kind of batteries you were using...but never heard from you there.

                      If you are using Automotive, high cranking amps batteries...they will provide up to 800 Cranking Amps...and there will be No Meter (unless a $5000.00 Snap On) that will measure that value.

                      Do you have the original Razor Scooter Batteries?...Or Gel 12V /15-20 or 33 Amps?

                      For this tests is better to use Deep Cycle Batteries and NOT Automotive ones, which are Short Cycle...
                      Short Cycle batteries tend to "Vomit", Burst all Amperage when they are shorted by any given circuit, in this case a Coil...while Deep Cycle render power in a more "stabilized" and "Soft" fashion.

                      Deep Cycle Batteries are used in ALL Electric Vehicles...Golf and Recreational as also in Scooters and Electric Bikes. They take longer to charge...but since Batteries "have memory" they also render their output slower than Fast Charge, Fast Discharge Batteries...

                      Fast Discharge batteries are used to start Gas Engines of ANY kind, and that applies also to Gas Scooters/Bikes/Jet Ski, and All Marine Batteries, since all they require is a Fast and High "Dump" of Amperage to a Symmetrical Starter Motor, that requires that "Much Amps" to produce enough torque to turn the compressing pistons...in an Explosion Engine......then Alternator-Voltage Regulators Systems recharge them at a Fast rate...in the very first minutes of operating vehicle. And once Gas Vehicle/Craft is running and Battery recovered, then Voltage Regulating System takes over the whole electrical supply, where Battery is almost "disconnected" from System. Actually you can take Battery off and keep going...


                      Regards


                      Ufopolitics
                      Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012, 10:17 PM.
                      Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                      Comment


                      • Welcome again Dear Friend!!

                        Originally posted by JohnStone View Post
                        Hi All,
                        I am back agin in the civilisation. Struggling to follow all posts I missed in the meantime. You were very busy :-) So bear with me - I will be silent for some time.
                        Just some ammendments:
                        A: You discussed the torque and power measurement.
                        1. see The basic idea of this guy is to mount the unit under test on an the flange of an old crancshaft with a bearing. The crank presses a normal scale for torque measurement and an optical meter counts for revolutions per minute. Regard for alternatives mentioned in discussion contained in that page.
                        2. Is there out there a guy being able to program micros? This is a power test stand for an electric bike drive. see

                        B: Your suggestion for a motor from a vacuum cleaner motor is marvelous. They have a long shaft on one side and the bearing / brusch holder can be mounted on both sides.
                        Question: The count of poles needs to be devidable by 3 or 5? Right?

                        Hello MR John Stone!!

                        So nice to have you again around Us here!

                        Great sites there, basically on the very small Motor Torque measurements...that is excellent to be able to measure efficiency in our very small "Toys"...

                        Yes John, divisible by 3,5 and seven...and 12 for bigger machines.
                        Even though, there is always a way to "fool" this symmetrical structures...by jumping even angles-at same poles around the whole 360...
                        Kind of lot of material since you left...but very interesting to see the outcomes that have happened so far...

                        Warm regards dear friend!!


                        Ufopolitics
                        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                        Comment


                        • Poles, stators, brushes.

                          Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                          Hello Prochiro and Turion,

                          @Prochiro:
                          Now on the 22 Pole, how many Stators, how many brushes?
                          I wrote before that just the "# of Poles" will mean absolutely nada...

                          Now the P-12 could extend to more Poles, like I did when I designed Turion's Razor Motor based on P-16...As also Sebosfato which is an 18 Poles. (by the way I never heard of Fabio again..?)
                          But this designs MUST be taken into a CAD and rotate them, check them out...to "see" any possible conflicts.
                          Hello UFO
                          Thanks for the response. I knew you were busy and was not wanting to bother you. I have 22 poles, 2 stators and 2 brushes. I have three different vacuum motor types and all have 22 poles. This may be common for vacuums and these are large rotors with much ease of modification.Dana
                          Last edited by prochiro; 08-22-2012, 11:06 PM. Reason: Spelling
                          "Today's scientist have substituted mathematics for experiments and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
                          Nikola Tesla

                          Comment


                          • Batteries...and Generators...

                            Originally posted by Turion
                            UFO,

                            I have some 2.5 amp hour batteries
                            some 18 amp hour batteries
                            I have some 12 volt car batteries
                            and some 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries. I had planned on using the two brand new 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries for the test...if my amp gauges ever get here. I am going to take a video and send YOU the link, and then you can help me address any issues or problems before I post the link here. Fair enough?
                            Use the 18 Amps if you have two...to make up the 24 Volts Total, and then try what amps My Machine gets at In-Out?...

                            And ...DO NOT USE the "Deep Cycle Marine Batteries"...they belong to the "Dual Purpose" Operating Batteries, meaning they are "Hybrids" of the two Worlds...Deep and Fast...However, and again, if you short them with ANY given Coil, including a Symmetrical Starter Motor...they will Blast, Dump High Amperage...and You do not want that ...right?

                            I have another issue that is confusing me. You referred to the generator output on these motors as positive and negative. I thought this was AC output, so IS THERE a positive and negative I need to be concerned about? I haven't been up to this point.

                            Dave
                            Dave, AC Generators have a "Sine Wave" Winding, completely different to what we are doing here...they run on Continuous Slip Ring Contacts...never on an element divided commutator...those are DC Generators.

                            If We get in...DC and get out AC...without a Diode Bridge Rectifier...it will be a "Miracle"...

                            Your Digital Meters are reading AC, just because there are Spikes and Coarse High-Low Volts Signals (non rectified, filtered, clean waves) in that output...

                            So, yes Dave, they are DC Output, as THERE IS also a Positive and a Negative terminal to "have in mind" at Generator Output...


                            Regards


                            Ufopolitics
                            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                            Comment


                            • archive

                              Hi All,

                              Found the UFO threads late. I wish to read up but I can stay online while reading, cost.

                              Please has anyone archived this thread in pdf complete with text and images.

                              Please share

                              Regards

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                                ...
                                Great sites there, basically on the very small Motor Torque measurements...that is excellent to be able to measure efficiency in our very small "Toys"...
                                ....
                                Hi Ufo,
                                Ok my friend if we exceed the "Toy State" - i'm shure we will - then listen to a more serious concept.
                                • Get a shaft out of quality steel i.e. 1/4" diameter and 20" length. (i.e. valve plungers from American big block engines)
                                • Support the shaft on both ends with bearings.
                                • Connect the UUT on one end and the break system (whatever you choose) on the other end.
                                • We are going to measure the torsion of the shaft under load.
                                • Add a disk (i.e. from PC hard drives) or pulley on each end of the shaft.
                                • Apply a reflective marker on both disks being aligned.
                                • Add a photo interruptor to each pulley (Alternative: magnets and hall sensors)
                                • Add a microprocessor. (i.e. Arduino / Teensy)/

                                The concept is highly scalable and can start from a 3mm shaft and go up to heavy rods. The length of the shaft needs to be adjusted in order to get suffitient torsion for a given torque.
                                Calibration is possible with a prony brake or Peter Lindemann style. Calibrate by positioning the second pulley along the shaft or by program calibration.

                                Given we have the corresponding program the jig performs:
                                • Measure the time for one revolution and calculate: frequency, angular velocity -> RPM
                                • Measure the time shift between the markers and calculate: phase shift, torsion angle, angular force
                                • Calculate power being transmmitted over the shaft
                                • Transfer the values to a PC via USB in an excel file
                                  Alternative:
                                  Get raw date from micro to PC and do the calculations at will on Excel level.


                                Known problems:
                                - Shaft oscillations depending on the smoothness of the drive or brake.
                                - Use of fast photointerruptors required in order to operate in high rpm range.
                                - The graph of torque vs. torsion might be nonlinear. Is there a mech expert out there?
                                - Minimum time slot of 30Ás detectable for standard arduino micros. This might impact resolution at small torque values.


                                Unfortunately my programming experience ended 30 years ago. We need the help of a person being able to modify the public C-codes from the E-bike test stand mentioned above.
                                The program download into the teensy will be performed via USB as well! Power will be supplied by USB as well.
                                The electronic part is basic and requires lower skills.

                                Further options (see E-bike test stand mentioned above):
                                • volt / amp measurement for generator output along Watt calculation
                                • same for input power

                                The electronic skills required are moderate again: see 4. Hardware. The chance to get a chart with overall energy input/output is intriguing!l

                                Is there an arduino expert out there? We can do excellent work if we share :-)
                                rgds John
                                Last edited by JohnStone; 08-23-2012, 02:06 PM.
                                Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

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