My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[sampojo]

Making some progress on Baldor commutators

Sorry pics soon. At intermediate state, 75% of wires on commutator successfully brazed. Put the commutator in a pan of water so it would not overheat. used an acetylene torch. Micro butane not up to the task with wired attached to big-heat sink comm.

Stripping all insulation a slow job on the 80 wires. To be absolutely sure it was all gone on a wire I ended up tinning them with the verbotten (forbidden, by UFO!!) solder. I found that it acted like flux during the higher temp brazing process, and alloyed to probably make a slightly lower temp melting point so I have less of a chance to burn my commutator hopefully. I did not want to chance carbonized insulation interfering with the weld process. After I apply connectors next, that will be the last time heat will have to be applied to the commutator as it becomes completely reusable (Waiting for when I convert the Baldor into a 4 stator, or build a double long generator, )

I had to develop a technique for inserting new wires as one commutator segment that had lost its wires during my haphazard removal process when I thought I was going to dremmel out all wires and redo the slots. I doubled up on the 19ga original wire about 1", brazed it together to make it a little wider and flatter to completely fill the slot after the last manufacturer's piece was removed. I left the wide rounded tip stick out on the surface on the slot. and then I hit it with a flat nosed punch to simulate the manufacturer's process. The protruding copper head of the new doubled wire compressed tightly on one end and the gaps closed up nicely the entire length. Victory!

back to nursing my hips big snow storm coming New Jersey

[µHenry]

Hi there,
went to the only motorshop in the area. They have double coated magnetwire. Comes in 20kg reels. Bit much methinks. They don't do brushed DC no more. Out of fashion they say. They know of no brand which sells bare rotors or separate commutators. So this forum and internet at large will be my only resource I guess, since recycling is a big thing here right now and dumpster diving became all but impossible .
Any chance of doing a transformation with a DCSM or IPM? These are available. I've read here about automotive motors. Does anyone know about the right european brands to look for? (eg long shafts etc?)
Thanks.

[Cornboy 555]

Hi there,
went to the only motorshop in the area. They have double coated magnetwire. Comes in 20kg reels. Bit much methinks. They don't do brushed DC no more. Out of fashion they say. They know of no brand which sells bare rotors or separate commutators. So this forum and internet at large will be my only resource I guess, since recycling is a big thing here right now and dumpster diving became all but impossible .
Any chance of doing a transformation with a DCSM or IPM? These are available. I've read here about automotive motors. Does anyone know about the right european brands to look for? (eg long shafts etc?)
Thanks.

Hello uHenry, welcome here, after being with UFO's threads from day one, if you are looking for the best value for money replication, that can have a practical use down stream, you won't find better than the UFO Imperial kit.

This kit includes a bare, brand new rotor ready to wind and two new commutators, along with everything you will require.

You normally can't even buy a rotor for the price of the whole kit.

Others here that have these kits can give you contact details.

Regards Cornboy.

PS. UFO has made excellent videos on how to wind and build the Imperial on his utube chanel, and his website.

[µHenry]

Hi Cornboy

@Cornboy,
thanks for anwering. The Imperial is definitely on the wishlist, and I sincerely hope they keep the UFO kit available for some time as my household can ill-miss the 500 or so euros at the moment (shipping to the EUSSR comes at a price I gather). But I eventually will go that route,I'd like to. I've seen most vids I think. Very nice most of them, and very helpful/instructive. Myself I think wants to go the slow route, caminando, to take in the scenery as it were. Much to learn and experience, vou see, I'm new at this game. I see you old hands and very much respect and envy your experience, insights and craftmanship. I was like that as a kid, repairing tellies by 12. Then life got the better of me and I kinda buried the play/experiment side of me. This forum reawakened something in me,so, lots of catching up to do.
As of now I only tackled a few crappy toy 3 poles, so my conception of more exotic windings is still hazy. My first goal for real use (down the line would be a modest 250W motor. Low RPM high torque preferably for bicycle. Any tips and leads more than welcome.
Regards. µH

[RandyFL]

DisAssembly and Assembly of R/S toy ( Motor )

Hello All,
I have enjoyed looking at this place from the outside...
Is there a Disassembly and Assembly pdf or video of the radio shack motor...
Do I need a laser cutter or a hack saw or dremel ( tools )...

Oh btw hows the weather where you're at...

Love and peace and Namaste
the other Randy

[Midaztouch]

Motor is on the Dyno test bench

@Team

Our motor is at Imperial. As soon as they get the negatives and positives in order, the testing will begin!

Here is the E-mail I sent Imperial. If I've made any mistakes or missing something please let me know.

.......
Imperial ,

The UFO motor looks good on your bench. Time to explore what our motor is capable of doing in its raw prototype stage.

1.) There are 4 channels/pairs of negative and positive (P1, P8, P15 & P22). Each "Pair" is independent from each other. Let's check for the neg and pos for each pair. Start with P1 then P8... end with P22. Step 1 establishes the Negative & Positive and that each pair is independent.

*Please note the rotation of the shaft. This motor is set up to spin counter clockwise.*

2.) Pair Grouping of P1, P8, P15 & P22.
The groups are set at 180 degrees. Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs ....Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs

Group 1 is ran in parallel. Group 2 can be run in series or parallel.(series=Eco Mode, parallel = full power)

3.) Testing amps, volts, rpms, torque, HP & efficiency. There are many combinations for testing.

A.) One channel/pair testing if for emergency. For example, damage to the motor that causes three channels to malfunction.
Will there be enough power to make a safe emergency stop or get to a service area for assistance?

B.) One group testing independently; Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs ....Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs
Can the motor run efficiently?
Is the motor running smoothly during testing?
Is the non excited group producing a current?

C.) Both groups together; Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs in PARALLEL ...Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs in SERIES/Eco Mode
a.) Both groups excited simultaneously
b.) adding groups. First excite group 1 then "add" group 2(touch and take off repeat)

Does group 2 have a generator effect?
What's the rpm and torque?
Charge back the power supply capability?
When adding, does the amperes decrease?
When adding, does the rpm increase?
Efficiency?

D.) Both groups is Parallel. Full power
a.) Both groups excited simultaneously
b.) adding groups. First excite group 1 then "add" group 2(touch and take off repeat)

When adding, does the amperes decrease?
When adding, does the rpm increase?
Effeciency?

E.) ADD all channels/pairs one at a time.
"Adding" will help you to find peak performance for firing sequence.




I know you and your team will have your own questions and tests. What I've stated above is just a good starting point. Throw your best at the motor and see what it can do? If damage happens, don't feel bad, we can build another one

.... The quad pulser/controller will take you to a new level of efficiency and performance for the Ufo motor.... That's later

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[sampojo]

RE: Imperial asym at Imperial dyno; Truly Exciting

what will be the reaction of this corporation when they see you using all their components and beating the snot out of all their configurations?

So all balanced at Imperial's subcontractor I assume?

Hows your Monster controller? Any plans to introduce it? That would be a real eye-opener for the engineering department!

I am on the edge of my seat!

you da man Midaz!!!

[RandyFL]

Radio Shack Motor

Hello
UFO/All
I have seen most of the videos of the various stages of the Radio Shack motor except the video ( or procedure ) on taking the motor apart...
or is that part of the learning curve...
I have studied the motor drawings of the windings and you're using Tesla's original patent drawing as Tesla wanted it to be used... efficiently.
If there is a post or redirect towards the beginning stage please point me to it... (anyone).

Have a great day
RandyFL

[Midaztouch]

what will be the reaction of this corporation when they see you using all their components and beating the snot out of all their configurations?

So all balanced at Imperial's subcontractor I assume?

Hows your Monster controller? Any plans to introduce it? That would be a real eye-opener for the engineering department!

I am on the edge of my seat!

you da man Midaz!!!

@Team

How are you? I'm glad to see your still pushing forward.

Imperial is always looking to improve on their product line up. Their bottom line is "manufacturing cost effectiveness and future growth".

Specialty motors can be bought at a "Premium Price". Meaning, they can upgrade any motor; neodymium magnets, aluminum case, redesigned brush housing...etc.

Luckily our motor is the same dimensions as their "workhorse" 56 frame, Imperial can get upgrades from their vendors and make a finished product frame relatively easy. ... Coil winding automation = price & performance = value.

Our motor has not been balanced. It must be tested in it raw state first. It's a working prototype!

Dana put his magical touch on the JS Monster. It's a Masterpiece!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

PS. Sampojo, you are da man!

[sampojo]

watch the little insulation washers

[QUOTE=RandyFL;250740]Hello
UFO/All
I have seen most of the videos of the various stages of the Radio Shack motor except the video ( or procedure ) on taking the motor apart...
or is that part of the learning curve...
I have studied the motor drawings of the windings and you're using Tesla's original patent drawing as Tesla wanted it to be used... efficiently.
If there is a post or redirect towards the beginning stage please point me to it... (anyone).



on the shaft at each end. needed in the asym build too. don't lose them. use small screws thru the endplate holes as brush retainers when putting the motor together. tough to measure what exactly the overall length of the motor body will be after assembly with whatever b rush to armature spacing you use. Redo the calculation a few times. If you get it wrong you will need to build a new motor body. 1" copper pipe has the right ID. (USA)

Welcome to the replication club

[RandyFL]

Welcome to the replication club

Thanx Sampojo

I was looking at the radio shack motors ( online ) to see what all the commotion was about...
How do you cut thru them?
hacksaw
Or how did you cut thru yours...


All the Best
RandyFL

[GChilders]

RS Motor

@RandyFL
There are probably many different approaches represented here. I used a 12 inch miter saw with a carborundum blade to cut the body of the gold mine motors into pieces. The result was quick and the cuts were relatively square. I own this saw so it was already in my tools. I used a dremel to cut the slots and the castle looking ends to give the ability to adjust the timing on the brushes independently of each other. Then I used a mig welder to weld the pieces back together. I only spot welded them in four positions for each section. I had these tools in my tool shed. If you examine some of the work you will see that some of the replicators used the bands to hold them together, I presume with epoxy. My first two replications were wired together to keep the end caps on. The amazing thing is that they actually worked and were much stronger than the original motors. Take what you have and work with it. If you have woodworking tools don't be afraid to use them for metal working, I have found that they can be used very well. If you have metal working tools use those. You can do this work with hand tools but it will be easier with power tools. But if you just want to prove the concept and make an inexpensive project use hand tools if that is all you have. It can be done that way. It has been said before, if I can do it anyone can. Just work safe and enjoy the path. You will learn a lot and have fun too.

Cheers

Garry

[RandyFL]

Metal cut

Thanx Gchilders/All
Since its early Saturday and I will have breakfast with the guys...I will head over to my local Home Depot and see what instrument for cutting.
What size thickness is these little motors / and since I'll be cutting thicker sizes ( Imperial 56 ) and various other projects... I don't mind using a hacksaw and a vise but I want something easier and more precise...
If anyone has a better system or a better way please post

All the best
Randy
ps even tho I am forbidden to go to Home Depot (wife )

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Randy FL

Thanx Gchilders/All
Since its early Saturday and I will have breakfast with the guys...I will head over to my local Home Depot and see what instrument for cutting.
What size thickness is these little motors / and since I'll be cutting thicker sizes ( Imperial 56 ) and various other projects... I don't mind using a hacksaw and a vise but I want something easier and more precise...
If anyone has a better system or a better way please post

All the best
Randy
ps even tho I am forbidden to go to Home Depot (wife )

Hello RandyFL,

First I want to say that I did not like your interest about me revealing my Real , Personal Name, exclusively to You, just like that, in your first mail or Private Message to Me on this Forum. I don't think it is necessary, in order for you to learn how to wind a Five Pole Radio Shack Motor...nor for an Imperial. So far I have been doing it for more than a year and a half...without any inconvenience in communication...

It will be completely on my end, when, in time, to say who I am...and so far am not interested.

Getting back to winding and assembly of the Five Pole RS Model:

Cutting

I cut the frame with a Dremel Carbide cutting disc, prior I set the casing in a small Bench Vise Grip, using wood paint sticks as to prevent to contact metal with metal, I highly recommend to find an old, small , short ratchet Socket that fits pretty tight inside the housing, to prevent from bending it as also to rectify that it is perfectly round.

Before cutting housing you will need to do some measurements and put some guiding tape (I use masking ) always leaving at least a millimeter gap for the cutting tool thickness to go through. Measure then Mark first, different points, at 0º, 90º, 180º...to run the tape through those dots.

Attaching Housing Rims

To attach both rings together I used my 175 Watts Soldering Iron...and it works perfect, also mounted on a vise, and of course, making sure you have removed magnets before cutting or welding...to prevent from De-magnetizing the PM Stators. You have to solder by spots areas, then cool them, then go to the opposite end at 180º of the casing to solder other side.

If you have a small Lathe, it would be awesome, because it will help you to align the cuts perfect, in order not to have any mechanical drag. And, of course, I would check first that alignment is well by "pre-bonding" both rings first with crazy glue or any FAST DRYING and strong glue.

If you do not have a lathe, then the process takes longer time by filing both connecting rims by hand, then checking both rings ends attached with rotor and magnets attached. I use a small square

About winding ways:

[IMG][/IMG]

On picture above, notice the distance (on Original) from commutator side shaft length...then compare it with the Asymmetrical one...notice it is shorter?...well, in that post I explained about using a small socket(s) to push shaft a bit more in than factory, when setting in a vise grip, this way you will have more end at the "power take off" side of shaft.

Originally I used the red wire, about 28 awg from Radio Shack, they come in a Three Spool package, Gold (22awg), Green(26) and Red(28). And around Fifteen turns per Coil, totaling around 30 turns in Pair.

I now encourage You to use a finer wire, say 32-33 awg (not available in RS) to obtain much lower Amp Draw rates...As finer wire will allow more turns ...


Originally I suggested to keep resistance per coil at One(1) Ohm per Pair...NOW I encourage to use a finer gauge and to go ABOVE 1 (One) Ohm, up to two(2) or even Three Ohms per Pair.

Originally you will find a lot of criticism on this motor on previous posts, due to its high amp draw...of course!...since Amps draw is completely dependent on Resistance of Coils, according to Ohm Law..., and the original RS Motor is wound with 32-33 awg...and about sixty turns per coil... It would be clearly understood then, the Original would draw much less amps (Duh!)...


Kaptain Kneemow have quite a few videos on his You Tube channel , dedicated to the 5 Pole RS like:

Asymmetric DC Motor - Winding Question - YouTube

I have almost all videos of previous members replications on my site page:

UFOPOLITICS » FIVE POLE REPLICATIONS

All CAD's and Diagrams as timing settings are below:

UFOPOLITICS » FIVE POLES-P5

There are many posts at the beginning of this Thread related to that RS Motor...as also many more explanations, guiding, videos and even more CAD's

Do not get confused with the Five Pole Pentagon style which is a different one, so the simple one and the useful to know in order to go later on on Imperial is the P5 or P SERIES kind.

...and since I'll be cutting thicker sizes ( Imperial 56 ) ...

You do NOT need to cut Imperial Frame, nor replace shaft, everything fits perfectly well from factory, and that is the reason I have chosen this particular Machine. This kind of Motor have many applications for small EV's, big sized Scooters/Motocycles as also running generators, etc.

I recommend you to watch all videos, all CAD's Diagrams...but mainly, locate the section on this Thread, (I believe this motor was discussed in detail at different times, not only in the first part of this Thread) where We go over the whole construction of this Motor, so, read carefully and save into your own file all info you could gather together.

Thanks for your interest on this Machines.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial Asymmetric Motor at Imperial Electric...

@Team

How are you? I'm glad to see your still pushing forward.

Imperial is always looking to improve on their product line up. Their bottom line is "manufacturing cost effectiveness and future growth".

Specialty motors can be bought at a "Premium Price". Meaning, they can upgrade any motor; neodymium magnets, aluminum case, redesigned brush housing...etc.

Luckily our motor is the same dimensions as their "workhorse" 56 frame, Imperial can get upgrades from their vendors and make a finished product frame relatively easy. ... Coil winding automation = price & performance = value.

Our motor has not been balanced. It must be tested in it raw state first. It's a working prototype!

Dana put his magical touch on the JS Monster. It's a Masterpiece!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

PS. Sampojo, you are da man!

Hello Midaz!

You and Dana are doing an excellent work on getting this Motor over to Imperial Electric to be checked properly...

I know many Members here, working, or planning to work on Imperial conversion into Asymmetric...will appreciate all this work you two guys are doing...

Thanks for sending me the picture below...where they are conducting the Torque tests with "A" professional Dyno...

[IMG][/IMG]

Yes, definitively it would be "SHOWTIME" very soon!!...

At Imperial Engineering end, they know very well the Spec's from their original Symmetric Model...(and I must say they did an excellent work on the winding spec's...because motor runs smooth and great from factory)

It is just that using same amount of voltage input (24V) our Asymmetric one will beat up easy the 2400 RPM's established from factory on original...as well as the 100 Amp draw at 4 HP of Torque...

And that was not including the Sir John Stone, Monster Quad/Arduino Pulser Controller Systems...

Could you imagine the performance with Neodymium PM Stators on this Beast?!

As the weight reduction and stator magnetic field increase by using an Aluminum Housing?!


Please Midaz, keep Us All updated of all Operations/Testing at Imperial Electric!...heck of a job Guys!!


Regards


Ufopolitics


Post Data: Midaz...eventually, after they complete this testings...and decide to go for a "Glorified,Upgraded... P56 Model"...then We will drop a Full Video and CAD to make the Dual Rotor P56...then see if they could get a couple of "samples" to test them in our Racing CBR's...