My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Midaztouch]

The vid finally up on YT. Take a look and tell me what you think.

1.9volts @ 21amps... 40 watts starts RPMs. Start of vid
20Volts @ 21apms... 420 watts vid's peak RPMs at the end(did you hear those RPMs increasing to 20 volts)

Remember, this motor is handmade. It's not balanced and it has a lot of Mechanical drag loses.

If you listen carefully, you can hear a wire scraping under the magnets under low RPMs. It got stuck under the magnets durng transporting.

[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwcPckoSbtA[/VIDEO]




Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

This place is huge. We were in a tiny back office. The front main testing lab is all white with ALL state-of-the-art equipment $$$$$$$$. This is an old picture, it bigger! It covers Almost all of the land.

[Midaztouch]

I note you have corrected the 60W to 40W, which is fair enough...but I don't understand what you're saying about the 21 amps...

What was the power at 20v ?

Presumably it was 420W no load.

Hunting

Before the testing started, the engineers set the machine on 20 Apms... From their test results of thier New EV Switch Reluctant/SR motor, 20amps was the baseline for thier motor.

It seems like they wanted used 20amps for a comparison of their SR motor in RPMs... They didn't want to do the test RPMs test, torque test was out of the question! The CEO of Sales made the staff do the RPMs run. The head engineer didn't bother to leave his desk when the CEO asked him to start the power supply run... Or look at me, when I walked past him and said "Thank you" went starting and leaving.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[HuntingRoss]

Originally Posted by Midaz
Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps... 40watts starts RPMs
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingRoss View Post
I make that 39.9W and 420W respectively.

420W seems high for a no load test ?

Hunting

The DC Power Supply was set on 21 Apms. It was the baseline for amps.

I note you have corrected the 60W to 40W, which is fair enough...but I don't understand what you're saying about the 21 amps...

What was the power at 20v ?

Presumably it was 420W no load.

Hunting

[Ufopolitics]

Excellent Chart!

@All

Here the spread sheets with the results calculated

The Goldmine Benchmark


The North South Radio Shack Winding


The All North Version 1


The All North Version 2


The All North Version 3


A simple note on the averaging method High RPM reading + Low RPM reading /2 = average RPM reading

(High Amps in + low Amps in) /2 = average amps in

Battery was always kept above 12.1 volts during each test while motor was running.

I will try to answer your questions but I think the spread sheet is self explanatory. Read my post above for better understanding of the way the test was conducted.

Cheers

Garry

Garry,

My Friend, according to my experience with Asymmetric Machines, basically in the R/S Motor... I believe I am 'qualified' to say You have done an Excellent Job...when looking at the Old R/S Five Poles North-South Wind, and being able to get those 0.5~0.6 amp draw readings!!

I know that is no 'piece of cake' to achieve!...got to be done with LOTS of patience ...

It is "self explanatory", plus you have high lighted the sweetest spots in green line readings...

So, yes, all this results were expected...at least by me, is what I'm saying...

The AN1 and AN2 Amp draw is impressively low!!

Resuming for what I can see the sweetest spots are found in T#1 and T#2, meaning in Attract Mode, right?...(And I am referring basically to AN1 & AN2, since I am not even looking at N/S nor AN3)


Thanks, excellent job Garry!!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

A Chart...Great!

@All
I have finished pulling all of the information on the video off and putting it into spread sheets. First let's go over the timing settings on the video and how the test's were done. First I set the motor being tested to position one. On the video I showed this as being the thick line in the center of the other four lines. This timing setting is the same setting as the symmetrical motor uses. Remember I marked the brush retainer long protrusion on the brush ring so that I could return the brush ring to it's original location after grinding the protrusion off. This is the oem's timing position that they feel gives the best performance for their motor, and as it happens it is also the best timing position for a couple of the other windings also.

Next I ran the following tests in a Clockwise motor rotation. All in this timing location. 30 seconds for the Motor Brush Pair, switched it off, and then switched on the generator brush pair and ran it by itself for 30 seconds. Finally while the generator brush pair was running I switched on the motor brush pair and ran the two pairs together for 30 seconds. As I went to the video rather than having all of the test I cut the center 10 seconds out of each run. That is the order all of the video's are presented in. MBPSetting 1, GBP Setting 1, BBP Setting 1. I then reversed the wiring and ran the same three tests in reverse. I did not include the CCW tests because I thought it would lead to more confusion.
Now after I videoed these tests I changed to timing Position 2 on the motor. In this location the brushes are rotated towards in the clockwise direction I have called it 5 degrees although it is actually closer to 7 degrees. It is the width of the long slot on the motor that locks in the brush ring. This rotates the brushes to a point to favor attraction. This would in auto lingo give a retarded timing setting of 5-7 degrees, not from the center of the stators, because I have not calculated that measurement, It is simply retarded 5-7 degrees from the oem timing location. After conducting the six tests that were conducted in setting one. The timing was set to position 3. This location retards the timing an additional 5 to 7 degrees towards the attraction side of the stators.
So keep this in mind : Position 1) is what the oem considers the perfect timing for their motor, Position 2)and 3) FAVORS THE ATTRACTION MODE by rotating the brush retainer clockwise, by moving the brushes in that direction the rotor will receive the electrical charge that generates the magnetic field later in the rotation of the rotor. Being closer to the southern pole of the motor it should enhance the attraction of the electromagnet to the south pole. 3) moves it another 5 to 7 degrees in that direction favoring the attraction mode even more.

In the next two positions the brush retainer is returned to it's original position and then rotated in a counter clockwise rotation THIS FAVORS THE REPULSION MODE by turning the brushes into the direction of the rotation we are advancing the timing of the electrical charge so that the magnetic force comes earlier in the rotation of the rotor.
4) is advanced 5 to 7 degrees towards the North Pole stator. This creates stronger repulsion in the interplay between the two opposing magnetic forces. Just as UFO has said all along. 5) is advanced another 5 to 7 degrees towards the North Pole to give possibly a stronger interplay in the repulsion of the rotor. This does not always happen in either direction because the sweet spot seems to give the very best combined totals with the very least drain of resources. Moving in either direction from the sweet spot performance suffers.
And our limited supply, Battery Charge suffers in a big way.

Cheers

Garry

Great Garry!,


So, I think We all could resume your time settings...

You used the Neutral Timing (same as OEM Symmetric)...as Timing #1

From there, favoring Attract Mode you did the other two timings T#2 & T#3, by a difference of like 5º - 7º diff between Timings

Then T#4 & T#5 were done towards Repulse Mode, moving firing towards North Stator also about 5º - 7º between each Timing

So, more or less where was your "sweetest" spot located between...?

And please, let me propose a couple of things and see if You All agree with me:

To take out of this testing the AN3...It is a Motor We have never done here in the 5 poles...and each pole circumference is way too small compared to Stator Magnet size...so, it could never get even close to the AN1 or AN2 performance.

And also the North South Winding...since a while back I did this video, where I compared both Machines...as I explained this All North were far superior...

So,please, I believe We should do this in order to save time, work and less confusing readings.

About Timing into the "Attract Zone" of All Norths...

I will repeat this again...even though I touched this issue before and for a long while...but I consider it is CRITICAL for Attract Mode Timing.


Whenever We time towards Attract Mode...We MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER TO CONSIDER TWO Pairs (AN1), or even TWO Single Coils(AN2) by their TWO respective Commutator Elements making contact with both Motor Brushes, then we must look at the Coil or Pair that is leaving the contact according to rotation, following its 'last' points of contacts until is completely OFF,...making sure NONE of its Bisectors passes the South Stator Bisector while is still ON.

As this will KILL performance completely.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[GChilders]

SpreadSheets

@All

Here the spread sheets with the results calculated

The Goldmine Benchmark


The North South Radio Shack Winding


The All North Version 1


The All North Version 2


The All North Version 3


A simple note on the averaging method High RPM reading + Low RPM reading /2 = average RPM reading

(High Amps in + low Amps in) /2 = average amps in

Battery was always kept above 12.1 volts during each test while motor was running.

I will try to answer your questions but I think the spread sheet is self explanatory. Read my post above for better understanding of the way the test was conducted.

Cheers

Garry

[Midaztouch]

Ufo's original comparison P214 post#6420

Windings used:



The first is the original Radioshack winding, and the second is Ufo's 5-pole unipolar I doctored a little, that I think Gary used too.

Not sure which was which on Gary's, If I come up with something based on his descriptions I will post.

AN-3 was a 5-pole wound like a 3-pole, singular poles per coil, like Midaz's A-1MoGen approach, correct? no diagram. To get generator and motor brush placements I should look at a 3-pole diagram?



AN-2 ??



Trying to analyze the winding design of AN-1 and see about applying it across other armatures... gotta see these side by side...

Sampojo

My design is the Singular Coil that is the same size as the magnet or a little bigger than the magnet... (NOT a one pole coil, like AN3)...
One pole coil is only for the 3pole motor/no choice .

AN2, my design, the coil was the same size as the magnet. The singular coils covered two poles per coil.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

From the original image below, the singular coils are the same size as the magnet On repulsion mode... Highest TORQUE with high RPMs

[Midaztouch]

Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps... 40watts starts RPMs
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps

I make that 39.9W and 420W respectively.

420W seems high for a no load test ?

Hunting

The DC Power Supply was set on 21 Apms. It was the baseline for amps.

The company builds IE3 Switch Reluctance motors. SR motors are the foundation of their company. Around the time I went there the first time, they had a prototype EV car motor strapped to the test bench. As you can see, now they have completed two types for production. That's why the head engineer want nothing to do with my motor. His pride is on the line.

小型EV用SRモータ | æ*ªå¼ä¼šç¤¾æ˜Žå’Œè£½ä½œæ‰€
It's in Japanese plus a little English
(Check thier company profile on the English side)

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[GChilders]

Calculations

@All
I have finished pulling all of the information on the video off and putting it into spread sheets. First let's go over the timing settings on the video and how the test's were done. First I set the motor being tested to position one. On the video I showed this as being the thick line in the center of the other four lines. This timing setting is the same setting as the symmetrical motor uses. Remember I marked the brush retainer long protrusion on the brush ring so that I could return the brush ring to it's original location after grinding the protrusion off. This is the oem's timing position that they feel gives the best performance for their motor, and as it happens it is also the best timing position for a couple of the other windings also.

Next I ran the following tests in a Clockwise motor rotation. All in this timing location. 30 seconds for the Motor Brush Pair, switched it off, and then switched on the generator brush pair and ran it by itself for 30 seconds. Finally while the generator brush pair was running I switched on the motor brush pair and ran the two pairs together for 30 seconds. As I went to the video rather than having all of the test I cut the center 10 seconds out of each run. That is the order all of the video's are presented in. MBPSetting 1, GBP Setting 1, BBP Setting 1. I then reversed the wiring and ran the same three tests in reverse. I did not include the CCW tests because I thought it would lead to more confusion.
Now after I videoed these tests I changed to timing Position 2 on the motor. In this location the brushes are rotated towards in the clockwise direction I have called it 5 degrees although it is actually closer to 7 degrees. It is the width of the long slot on the motor that locks in the brush ring. This rotates the brushes to a point to favor attraction. This would in auto lingo give a retarded timing setting of 5-7 degrees, not from the center of the stators, because I have not calculated that measurement, It is simply retarded 5-7 degrees from the oem timing location. After conducting the six tests that were conducted in setting one. The timing was set to position 3. This location retards the timing an additional 5 to 7 degrees towards the attraction side of the stators.
So keep this in mind : Position 1) is what the oem considers the perfect timing for their motor, Position 2)and 3) FAVORS THE ATTRACTION MODE by rotating the brush retainer clockwise, by moving the brushes in that direction the rotor will receive the electrical charge that generates the magnetic field later in the rotation of the rotor. Being closer to the southern pole of the motor it should enhance the attraction of the electromagnet to the south pole. 3) moves it another 5 to 7 degrees in that direction favoring the attraction mode even more.

In the next two positions the brush retainer is returned to it's original position and then rotated in a counter clockwise rotation THIS FAVORS THE REPULSION MODE by turning the brushes into the direction of the rotation we are advancing the timing of the electrical charge so that the magnetic force comes earlier in the rotation of the rotor.
4) is advanced 5 to 7 degrees towards the North Pole stator. This creates stronger repulsion in the interplay between the two opposing magnetic forces. Just as UFO has said all along. 5) is advanced another 5 to 7 degrees towards the North Pole to give possibly a stronger interplay in the repulsion of the rotor. This does not always happen in either direction because the sweet spot seems to give the very best combined totals with the very least drain of resources. Moving in either direction from the sweet spot performance suffers.
And our limited supply, Battery Charge suffers in a big way.

Cheers

Garry

[HuntingRoss]

Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps... 60watts starts RPMs
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps

I make that 39.9W and 420W respectively.

420W seems high for a no load test ?

Hunting

[sampojo]

Trying to get a handle on windings used in regards to Gchilders tests BOTW p7511

Ufo's original comparison P214 post#6420

Windings used:



The first is the original Radioshack winding, and the second is Ufo's 5-pole unipolar I doctored a little, that I think Gary used too.

Not sure which was which on Gary's, If I come up with something based on his descriptions I will post.

AN-3 was a 5-pole wound like a 3-pole, singular poles per coil, like Midaz's A-1MoGen approach, correct? no diagram. To get generator and motor brush placements I should look at a 3-pole diagram?



AN-2 ??



Trying to analyze the winding design of AN-1 and see about applying it across other armatures... gotta see these side by side...

[Midaztouch]

Ran my motor on a DC Power Supply today!

After a long ride with many big bumps and going over many curbs, a wire came loose and got lodged under the magnets. I heard something scraping when I was running the motor in their lobby but I had to play it cool and didn't want touch/adjust the motor. I just let it spin and smiled.

The engineer staff drag me up 2 long fights of stairs and all the way across the warehouse at top speed! I was carrying the 45lbs A1MoGen. They said 5mins that's it... I was a little upset with their treatment but hey, beggars can't be choosy. Anyway, I only needed 3 mins and the A1MoGen got checked on a DC Power Supply.

The results from the Vid( will post soon, can't upload to YT for some reason)

Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps... 40watts starts RPMs
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps

I had to stop going up in voltage. I heard a loud "PING" in the motor. I thought about, going up in voltage after the loud ping but I decide to live and fight another day ... The "ping" was the wire lodged under the magnet. When I got home, I pull the wire out and it ran smoothly/no scraping... Instead of using all 28 coils, I will have 27 coils, for now...

Conclusion: The A1MoGen was a success on the DC Power Supply.
In my opinion, Asymmetrical Motors are VIABLE high-performance electric motors!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[bistander]

Hey bIstander what is the model of that forklift anyway?
......
Bistander, did you say the stators were wound electro magnets?

Hi Sam,

I don't know what forklift. But I think it's an ADC motor. Most of those look about the same on the inside. And yes, it has a 4 pole wound field stator using 4 salient steel poles each having a coil around it. Total resistance of the motor would be on the order of 10 milliohms.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

The Real Magnetic Circuit...

The flux pattern in that 2 pole stator is completely different from what it will be with the rotor core in place. Removal of the rotor core distroyes the magnetic circuit essentially leaving two separate magnetic circuits, one around each magnet.

Bistander,

Below is the REAL MAGNETIC "CIRCUIT" taking place within Stator...

[IMG][/IMG]

On prior Diagrams , both poles for each segment were NOT represented...so the "REAL THING" is laying above...and each Arc Segment Magnet has its OWN Dielectric Wall, which is "OFF CENTER" because it is influenced by the Iron-Steel Housing, which is NOT Displayed here that polarization on outer casing...but it DOES EXIST as well, not to complicate even more this interconnections diagram.

ALL THREE Dielectric three dimensional planes DO INTERCONNECT as shown above and below through the intermittent green curves. As they are the ones "IN CHARGE" to bring/fuse together all Field Polarizations into an EQUILIBRIUM.

Below Image is of a Two point Five Millimeters (2.5 mm) thickness, Neo Arc Segment (N-35)....screened under Viewing Film...the Dielectric Plane could be seen clearly defined at the EXACT CENTER dividing both polarized fields.

[IMG][/IMG]

Every single Magnet, screened under Magnetic Viewing Film, will reveal this internal, center located, dielectric wall plane with high accuracy...like an X-RAY to any Magnetic Field.

All Magnetic Fields are RULED by this Three Dimensional Dielectric Plane...they are the ones that really "command" each movement the polarized fields make.

Therefore, learning FIRST how they "OPERATE"...will lead Us to learn how to "control" or "manipulate" this dielectric plane (not the fields itself, which is what we all have been doing so far...) this knowledge could make any electrodynamic machine design...something "completely out of this world"...

[IMG][/IMG]

Above is just a FRAME, from an Attraction sequence that was filmed in slow motion...between Two Ceramic Rectangular Magnets coming together under Viewing Film...

Dielectric Planes are the "Start" and the "End" Source to both Polarized Fields...Counterspace, where they fly from into space to then return back to that same source...in a constant dynamic state.

Taking the "Hint" yet??


Regards to all


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Negative...

The flux pattern in that 2 pole stator is completely different from what it will be with the rotor core in place.

Bistander,

Completely NEGATIVE!

It don't matter whatever FERROMAGNETIC MATERIAL you insert within that Stator, the Stator Magnetic INFLUENCE GEOMETRY will NEVER CHANGE, Just EXPAND, taking over the iron!

Removal of the rotor core destroys the magnetic circuit essentially leaving two separate magnetic circuits, one around each magnet.

NEGATIVE AGAIN!!

Old School from the 1800's...and it seems to be pretty well stamped in your brain.

The North and South Poles NEVER, read me well...NEVER "BLEND", "CONNECT", "FUSE" or whatever "adjective" that means North and South have ANY relation between them works here...!

There is a WALL between them...that Green Wall, would be there until they disappear completely when making final contact, then BECOME JUST ONE WALL between both Poles.

[IMG][/IMG]

That Stator there with Magnets GLUED/STOCK to the Housing are in a TEMPORARY "PAUSED AND APPARENT" BALANCE because they are being FIRMLY attached to steel casing...the minute you UN-GLUE them...they will do stick together which is the final VOIDANCE ACTION, after that those two Inner Poles at Attraction die, are gone, good bye!

If you insert a ROTOR, or a Steel Cylinder within that Stator...the MAGNETIC INFLUENCE will take over the cylinder drum FERROMAGNETIC MASS like shown on Right Image, and STILL, there would be TWO SEPARATE POLES, You could also add within Stator Hole two pounds of iron loose particles...and still, HALF Particles near the North Pole WILL BE NORTH...as HALF Particles on the South End Pole WILL BE SOUTH, NO MATTER IF THEY ARE "MECHANICALLY BRIDGING" TOGETHER. HOWEVER, when We screen by Viewing Film...there would STILL BE A GREEN LIGHTER WALL DIVIDING BOTH POLARIZED FIELDS, no matter which kind and shape of ferromagnetic mass would be within Stator.

ANY MOTOR OUT THERE...Anyone, Symmetric, Asymmetric, Brushless or Brush operated...no matter which one...WORKS BASED ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE:

EVERY SINGLE MOTOR OUT THERE, OPERATES BASED ON JUST ONE METHOD,THE PRINCIPLE OF GENERATING A MAGNETIC UNBALANCE WITHIN STATOR WHEN WE PROVIDE ENERGY TO THE ROTOR COILS, IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE ROTATION

Removal of the rotor core destroys the magnetic circuit

NEGATIVE.

The Motor ACTION is the only one that "TRIES" every second of Rotation to UNBALANCE (not "destroy") the Stator Magnetic "Circuit" and NEVER GETS TO ACHIEVE THIS DESTRUCTION ...IF IT EVER DOES...ROTATION IS FINISHED, OVER, GONE...This could happen whenever stator magnets come loose, for example.

Hope you understand this facts.


Ufopolitics