Opening a window on self running motors

[mbrownn]

This is just a thought experiment that I put in the simulator.

Circuit Simulator Applet

I put John Bedini's window motor in the simulator and wondered why no one has ever bothered to add a generator to it. The problem has always been you need to match the generator to the load, so I replaced the window motor with a transformer and added a 12v 100w motor and a 24v 50w generator

The bulb is there to add a resistance and indicate when the circuit is oscillating. The small capacitor across the transistor may not be needed.

The motor is running at about 58w with the generator giving around 30w, of course we have no iron losses in this but provided the motor/generator combination is around 60% efficient or above it should work.

To increase power lower the resistance of the 400 ohm resistor.

[stargate22]

Window motor...

Add a "Muller" to it and ya got a winner

[dustyrusty]

Thanks for the Circuit Simulator Applet

Mbrownn,
That simulator is great. I can use it to virtually experiment with my Bendini motors without burning up the components. (Often happens in late night experimenting.)
Thanks,
Russell W.

[mbrownn]

John gave us that motor and circuit years ago and we haven't done anything with it His motor, not having iron in it, does not waste energy like most other motors do but it is low on torque so we need a high speed low torque generator. using a standard motor like I have suggested is likely to be less efficient but there are ways to improve it including using coreless motors.

@dustyrusty, yes the sim is useful.

[alvarohn]

I also don't understand why no one hook up a generator to the window motor,.... ...

[mbrownn]

All you would need to do is place a disk on the shaft with a number of magnets on it then place a group of coils in front of the magnets so that there is one more coil than there is magnets. if they are equally spaced there will be little cogging and you would have a reasonably efficient generator.

Alternatively fit a motor like I suggested.

[gene gene]

mbrownn, I left a post for you @ Imhoteps Lab.
Sorry for off topic. Gene

[nasirsultanaasi]

All you would need to do is place a disk on the shaft with a number of magnets on it then place a group of coils in front of the magnets so that there is one more coil than there is magnets. if they are equally spaced there will be little cogging and you would have a reasonably efficient generator.

Alternatively fit a motor like I suggested.

i was also thinking about vawt rotor and stator to add with this

[mbrownn]

@gene gene

I replied in the shoutbox on the other forum.

@ all

I hope someone will give the window circuit adaptation a try and post some results, I am happy to help anyone that tries, I am not able to do practical work at the moment but what I know comes for free.

[ZeropointEnergy]

Agree

John gave us that motor and circuit years ago and we haven't done anything with it His motor, not having iron in it, does not waste energy like most other motors do but it is low on torque so we need a high speed low torque generator.

Hey Mbrownn,

Good point and that was what limited Tesla's efficiency in his time with the materials available.
Pulse motors tuned correctly do not create heat and waste additional energy.
Interested to see the designs of these high speed, low torque generators and more importantly
the output compared to just adding generator coil/s on an independant circuit

Regards
Zero

[Matthew Jones]

If your really good you'll use a 12 - 24 volt DC to DC converter between the 12 volt power supply and isolate and jack the voltage up so you can run it through the motor and back to the primary battery or cap.
you could build your own isolated boost circiut or buy one...
VHB75-D12 Series | DC-DC Converters | CUI Inc

You can use the output from the window motor and cap to control field windings in a pulse style generator and short the coils on a peak to peak bases.
And feed that back to a battery or cap on the front end.

But 6x time more out than in is a hard thing to see. Don't fool yourself and think that simulator is actually going to consider all the facts, it just a fancy calculator.

Matt

[ren]

Hi Guys,

Ive been tinkering away at some similar ideas, except my generator is a little unorthodox. I have it nearly ready to attach to my SG and/or my window motor. Some pics are below. Some of you may recognize the design from Johns pages here IDEAS AND MOTORS

The best part about it is no back emf, and you can fine tune it by adding or removing magnets. My single coil unit driven by a DC motor shows some potential. I have a 3 phase build underway.

Regards

Photo Album - Imgur

[mbrownn]

Its nice to see you guys here giving valuable input

Don't fool yourself and think that simulator is actually going to consider all the facts, it just a fancy calculator. Matt

Agreed, there is nothing like building and testing because no simulation can take into account all the factors and this particular one cannot give you losses caused by air gaps, iron etc.

The Idea is that off the shelf components can be used with this circuit and so it is simpler to construct. Of course standard motors and generators have their efficiency losses which may result in an overall loss in the system but I think people will get my point. If using standard components our combined motor/generator will have to be very efficient.

In the real world it is not the power you put into the motor that gives its output, but the current. The simulation shows the motor to be receiving 5.5A peak which works out at 33w continuous power as it is a 12v motor, this is about the same as what is being drawn from the generator and that is without Iron losses. If we had a 24v motor of the right design this would give us 66w output on the same current and voltage and we would be back in business.

I was speaking to a researcher who put a high efficiency generator on his window motor but the losses were too great to self run, having said that using flat faced magnets and the large air gap on his motor will not have helped the situation. The window motor itself could be improved in that respect and this makes it a better candidate. The reason for the window motor's poor torque is its poor construction, although it will always have less torque than a conventional iron cored motor of the same size.

Standard motors and generators are better as far as the construction is concerned but we now have iron losses to contend with which the simulator does not take into account.

I do believe that the window motor and its circuit could be used to produce a self running device if we get everything correct.

[ren]

Its nice to see you guys here giving valuable input



The reason for the window motor's poor torque is its poor construction, although it will always have less torque than a conventional iron cored motor of the same size.

Standard motors and generators are better as far as the construction is concerned but we now have iron losses to contend with which the simulator does not take into account.

I do believe that the window motor and its circuit could be used to produce a self running device if we get everything correct.

Im not sure I agree with you on the poor torque comment Mr Brown. Have you ever pulled apart a brushless motor, like the ones found in RC cars etc? I was quite surprised to find it near identical to the window motor, with just a steel case completely shrouding the motor. But no stator laminations or cogging when turned by hand (might be worth doing some tests to see if the steel shroud around the outside makes more torque?)

I think peoples perception of the window motor being low torque is because no one has built it properly yet. How many window motors do you see with more than one coil? Or phase? There aint many out there. Heck its hard enough to find a good replication that uses hall sensors. Next, do the math on the power flowing through most of these replications. In most cases its less than 24 watts. Heck, my 20 kilo rotor with a single 6 filar coil only drew 500ma @ 36v when up to speed. I would love to see a good replication with mosfet Hbridge and completely encompassed in copper windings.

Anyway, no disrespect, just my 2 cents

[erfinder]

Im not sure I agree with you on the poor torque comment Mr Brown. Have you ever pulled apart a brushless motor, like the ones found in RC cars etc? I was quite surprised to find it near identical to the window motor, with just a steel case completely shrouding the motor. But no stator laminations or cogging when turned by hand (might be worth doing some tests to see if the steel shroud around the outside makes more torque?)

I think peoples perception of the window motor being low torque is because no one has built it properly yet. How many window motors do you see with more than one coil? Or phase? There aint many out there. Heck its hard enough to find a good replication that uses hall sensors. Next, do the math on the power flowing through most of these replications. In most cases its less than 24 watts. Heck, my 20 kilo rotor with a single 6 filar coil only drew 500ma @ 36v when up to speed. I would love to see a good replication with mosfet Hbridge and completely encompassed in copper windings.

Anyway, no disrespect, just my 2 cents

Ren,

I built one..this is a pic of it running on a

Input 230V, 1-5A

12 circuit SG, got another pic of it somewhere running on a hall based circuit...

We got to talk about this wave form this thing generates.


Regards