Can a Muslim be a good American?

[Kevin]

Got this in an email....food for thought.


Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , The great Satan.

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or
autocratic.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. ....

[Kevin]

Can this possibly be true???

Can this possibly be true???

Right From The Qur’an:

“Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Qur'an 2:191

“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Qur'an 9:123

“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Qur'an 9:5

“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Qur'an 3:85

“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Qur'an 9:30

“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Qur'an 5:33

“The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque.” Qur'an 9:28

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Qur'an 22:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Qur'an 47:4

“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Qur'an 8:65

“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Qur'an 3:28

“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Qur'an 8:12

“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Qur'an 8:60

[Pamela]

Hi Kevin...(Hope you are mending well, my friend! )

But wait...

"Food for Thought"? No... I don't think so... How about "Contaminated Food for Poisonious Thought"? Now don't you think that would be much more appropriate? Yeah...I thought so!

I'm frankly a wee bit surprised to read this fear-based copy & paste email on this forum...... one which I have always considered to be a place where intelligence, peace, enlightenment, awareness and truth are celebrated. This email speaks of darkness, separation, ignorance, intolerance and insanity. To me it is simply another age-old, egominded, dog and pony show dance of My God Is Better Than Your God...the likes of which I find not only ubiquitous, but energy-draining and, if I allowed myself to let it churn in my mind, exquisitely stomach-turning. So, rather than giving any more of my energy to something so obviously ignorant, self-rightious, delusional and hateful, I will only say that I hope the other members of this forum who feel the same way that I do will extend their love, compassion and forgiveness to the being who wrote this and to all those who buy into the same insane thought system.

With Much Love and Gratitude,

Pamela

[Pamela]

Oops...

Oh, Kevin...I almost forgot to answer the question you posed...

Can a Muslim be a good American?

Absolutely!

And probably a much better American than the sorry excuse for a Christian who wrote the article you posted! I cannot for the life of me believe that every Muslim in this country is ready to brandish a big sword and start slicing off the heads of "infidels" like myself...That's just plain ludicrous! For that matter, it is highly unlikely that most Muslims living in the USA would even BEGIN to think of me as an "infidel" in the first place... Geesh... Forgive me for being so judgemental about that blithering idiot,(I'll forgive myself later... )but, geesh...I've had just about enough of that insanity to last several lifetimes...

Okay...Im done...

With Much Love & Gratitude,

Pamela

[Aaron]

Muslims Believe in Jesus Christ

Do Muslims Believe In Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him)? « Muslim Woman Speaker Blog



Do Muslims Believe In Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him)? Bismillah (In The Name Of God)
Asalamalakium (Peace Be Upon All Of You),

Do Muslims Believe In Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him)?
Muslims think that Jesus (PBUH) was one of the greatest messengers of Allaah (SWT)- God the Greatest. Islam is the only other religion that believes in Jesus Christ (PBUH), his miraculous birth, and his miraculous abilities. Islam also believes in Moses (PBUH). Allaah (God the Greatest) had sent down the Torah as well as the Gospel. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent as the final messenger to all of mankind.

“Say, we believe in God and that which was revealed unto us, and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob, and the tribes and that which was entrusted unto Moses and Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have submitted”.
(The Quran=n 3:84)

“Jesus was born miraculously through the same power that had brought Adam into being without a father: “Truly the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust and then said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was.”
(The Quran 3:59)

We also believe that Jesus’s mother Mary (PBUH) was one of the purest women in the world. She was chosen to give birth to Jesus (PBUH) without any man ever touching her.

“Behold! the angel said: ‘God has chosen you and purified you and has chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary! God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near to God”.
(The Quran 3:42)

As a matter of fact Chapter 19 in The Quraan is all about Mary (PBUH).

During the time that Jesus (PBUH) was sent on his mission, Jesus (PBUH) performed many miracles. The Qur’an tells us that he said:

“I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, a figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God’s leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God’s leave.”
(The Quran 3:49)

None of the messengers, Muhammad (PBUH) nor Jesus (PBUH) came to change the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it. Jesus (PBUH) is reported as saying in the Quran that he came:

“To attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me.”
(The Quran 3:50)

I hope this post has made it easy and simple for you to understand….

Empower Yourself With Knowledge!
Zohra Sarwari


--------------------------


According to the Quran, Muslims believe in and submit to Jesus Christ,
but they aren't Christians.


Last night, I read through some of those chapter/versus in the Quaran
and the ones posted are either abbreviated or taken out of context

for the most part. In several occasions, it is supposed to be God speaking
that he will destroy, etc... and there are lesser commands to the Muslim
to do the same.



There are many violent references, maybe about as violent and brutal

against women as the Christian bible.



There is definitely a war between the Light and the Dark. And people in

different religions are being used against each other by the Light and

the Dark just like there are Light and Dark political forces, mostly dark
in our world and democrats and republicans are used against each other
making it seem like there is some "balance", when they are both working
to the same dark end - global dictatorship.

[lama]

Thank You sweetest Pamela and sweetest Aaron

I am honestly so touched by your replies and happy that there are people in the west who understand what you understand ..

Dear Kevin .. hope you're recovering well ...

as a muslim, I assure you that the email you have received is from a person who's heart is filled with hatred and that it is far away from the truth ... i will write a detailed answer about each and every verse of the Quran that you've listed and I will explain to you what they mean, in which context they have been said ...etc. ...

& of course a good muslim can be a good, loyal american ... I have uncles living in the states and who are good muslims who do good deeds for themselves as well as for others and who live in the american society peacefully and blending with everyone with amazing personal relationships ...

please please don't let this crap fill ur head and lets keep our beloved forum as healthy and loving and energetic as like we've always known it

God bless you all ..

with much Love, Gratitude & Appreciation

[noises]

I've seen passages taken from the Torah and used in a similar way, to spread a message of mistrust, divisiveness and fear about people who follow the Jewish faith.

What's really tragic is, several of America's founding father's were Diests, some were even quite vocally anti-clerical. This assumption that "one nation under god" refers to a Christian god isn't consistent with the beliefs of the more prominent founding fathers. They would have been alluding to a non denominational creator, a supreme being, in line with Diest theology, or they wouldn't have put their names the declaration. Ben Franklin and Jefferson, in particular.

So that email, to me, reads as the worst example of Christianity, a parochial, judgmental and spiteful way of seeing our fellow man, which is imagined as being pardoned by some kind of divine ordination from on high. It's a prime example of why a lot of kind hearted, honorable people around the world take exception to Christianity but not to the bible or the message of the new testament. I firmly believe if Jesus was alive today, he'd be as livid with that aspect of the church as he was with the money changers in his fathers house on his last visit. It's so blatantly contrary to EVERYTHING Jesus spent his life preaching.

[patmac]

Got this in an email....food for thought.


Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , The great Satan.

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or
autocratic.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. ....

@Kevin

Bible & Quran is only written word are not fragments, if you read Quran & Bible in fragments then please read the Constitution in fragments too.

For example look Quran 2:191 but please read 2:190 & 2:192.

But really I support that if a Muslim goes to live in the US then this person must to be respect US laws. But many exceptions was made for Jews in the world because this people did not have their own land.
Regards....
Your rights end where others begin to

[Aaron]

America was Founded on Deism

several of America's founding father's were Diests, some were even quite vocally anti-clerical. This assumption that "one nation under god" refers to a Christian god isn't consistent with the beliefs of the more prominent founding fathers. They would have been alluding to a non denominational creator, a supreme being, in line with Diest theology, or they wouldn't have put their names the declaration. Ben Franklin and Jefferson, in particular.

This is exactly right! I'm happy to see others know this. It has always been
false propaganda that this country was founded on "Christian ideals" as
the Founding Fathers were not Christians! A couple were but for
example the very author of the Deceleration of Independence, Thomas
Jefferson, hated Christianity - he was a Deist.

I'd say more than a few were Diests.

Thomas Jefferson and others DESPISED the Christian churches for their
hypocrisy, murdering millions over the years "in the name of God", etc...
They were against the corruption and self-serving false teachings made
by the "mainstream" churches in their time. Seems like nothing has
changed in the last few hundred years.

Diests for anyone that isn't familiar with it is basically a belief in a
Supreme God based on common sense observation of the world around
them. We just have to open our eyes and all the proof that there is a God is self
evident. Just look at nature. It can be deduced very logically that there
is a supreme intelligence behind everything in the Universe.

This does NOT mean that in their own personal spiritual lives they do not
see and understand the meaning of what it means to be "Christed"
or "Annointed" - which is an evolutionary step in Mankind's spirituality
to come into a consciousness of BEING - "when two eyes become one",
which means to BE without judgment (2 eyes is judgment from "Satan",
which is the primal reasoning mind of man that sees the world around us
and turns it into something other than what it is based on our language
and reason - the illusion). But becoming a Christ (Christ like) is not taught
by the Christian Churches. The same thing has been taught in Hindu and
other major religions. And it is right there in the Christian bible.

It has been said that for a Christian to become a good Christian, they
should study Buddhism!

So the Founding Fathers were very advanced in their spirituality and
understood what Mankind's path is but in no way, shape or form did they
found this nation on Christianity - the institutionalized religion.

It is about as false of a teaching as could be taught to Americans -
just as false as people that are brainwashed that Democracy is good
when it is nothing more than "mob rule" where the majority takes away
the rights of the minority - this nation is a Constitutional Republic - NOT
a democracy, which is indespensible to Socialism > Communism >
then full blown Dictatorship. (Jefferson and Marx references)

So people believing America was founded on Christianity is just as blind
and lost as someone that believes in Democracy instead of a Constituational
Republic.

Both the liberal view of America and the conservative view of America
is so extremely twisted that none of them really know anything about
what America is and where it came from.

Thomas Payne is another - one of the greatest revolutionaries in history
(both for France and the United States).

From WIKI: Thomas Paine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), his book
advocating deism, promoting reason and freethinking, and arguing against
institutionalized religion and Christian doctrines.[3]

In 1802, at President Jefferson's invitation, he returned to America where
he died on June 8, 1809. Only six people attended his funeral as he had
been ostracized due to his criticism and ridicule of Christianity.[7]

And putting Christians and Muslims against each other is a whole other
story. George Washington would spin in his grave at 12,000 RPM if he saw
what the
Christian conservatives were doing these days to insight this hate.

There are extremists in all. There are extremist Muslims, extremist
Jews, extremist Christians, etc... and they're all nuts. But fortunately,
the mass majority of Muslims, Jews and Christians NOT extremists.

Although the primary Founding Fathers were Deists, they fought hard
to establish religious freedom for Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... EQUALLY.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

THIS IS A MUST READ - FROM:
The Founding Fathers and Islam (May 2002) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin
I didn't paste all the paragraphs from that link, but check it out:

In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

In his autobiography, Jefferson recounted with satisfaction that in the struggle to pass his landmark Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786), the Virginia legislature "rejected by a great majority" an effort to limit the bill's scope "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan." George Washington suggested a way for Muslims to "obtain proper relief" from a proposed Virginia bill, laying taxes to support Christian worship. On another occasion, the first president declared that he would welcome "Mohometans" to Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen" (see page 96). Officials in Massachusetts were equally insistent that their influential Constitution of 1780 afforded "the most ample liberty of conscience … to Deists, Mahometans, Jews and Christians," a point that Chief Justice Theophilus Parsons resoundingly affirmed in 1810.

Toward Islam itself the Founding generation held differing views. An evangelical Baptist spokesman denounced "Mahomet" as a "hateful" figure who, unlike the meek and gentle Jesus, spread his religion at the point of a sword. A Presbyterian preacher in rural South Carolina dusted off Grotius' 17th century reproach that the "religion of Mahomet originated in arms, breathes nothing but arms, is propagated by arms." Other, more influential observers had a different view of Muslims. In 1783, the president of Yale College, Ezra Stiles, cited a study showing that "Mohammadan" morals were "far superior to the Christian." Another New Englander believed that the "moral principles that were inculcated by their teachers had a happy tendency to render them good members of society." The reference here, as other commentators made clear, was to Islam's belief, which it shared with Christianity, in a "future state of rewards and punishments," a system of celestial carrots and sticks which the Founding generation considered necessary to guarantee good social conduct.

"A Mahometan," wrote a Boston newspaper columnist, "is excited to the practice of good morals in hopes that after the resurrection he shall enjoy the beautiful girls of paradise to all eternity; he is afraid to commit murder, adultery and theft, lest he should be cast into hell, where he must drink scalding water and the scum of the damned." Benjamin Rush, the Pennsylvania signer of the Declaration of Independence and friend of Adams and Jefferson, applauded this feature of Islam, asserting that he had "rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammed inculcated upon our youth than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles."


That ordinary citizens shared these positive views is demonstrated by a petition of a group of citizens of Chesterfield County, Va., to the state assembly, Nov. 14, 1785: "Let Jews, Mehometans and Christians of every denomination enjoy religious liberty…thrust them not out now by establishing the Christian religion lest thereby we become our own enemys and weaken this infant state. It is mens labour in our Manufactories, their services by sea and land that aggrandize our Country and not their creeds. Chain your citizens to the state by their Interest. Let Jews, Mehometans, and Christians of every denomination find their advantage in living under your laws."

The Founders of this nation explicitly included Islam in their vision of the future of the republic. Freedom of religion, as they conceived it, encompassed it. Adherents of the faith were, with some exceptions, regarded as men and women who would make law-abiding, productive citizens. Far from fearing Islam, the Founders would have incorporated it into the fabric of American life.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So we can see that evangelical preacher way back then, causing hate
in Christians towards the Muslims. And that comes from a Christian

and it can be clearly seen that the Founding Fathers were not only

tolerant of Muslims, but welcomed them and foresaw their continued

existence as a part of America and did whatever they could in order
to secure their rights to practice the Muslim religion.



So, America was never founded as a Christian nation - ever! It was
founded as a FREE nation, FREE from any specific institutionalized religion
being the foundation of anything, but rights were guaranteed for anyone
to practice what they want. If anything, America is founded on Deist
ideals and absolutely not Christianity.


There were some Christian Founding Fathers but they played lesser roles

compared to the monumental positions of the masterminds behind the
founding of this country - the Deists.

[Mad Scientist]

Can this possibly be true???

Right From The Qur’an:

Unfortunately I would say yes. Of course it can be argued these statements are taken out of contest and if they were the only ones then that would be a reasonable argument. But I have seen literally page after page after page of similar quotes. So as unpleasant as it might be for some at what point do you say maybe this isn’t being taken out of contest, but is actually what is being called for? I am all for freedom of religion but that is not what this is.

Now does this mean that every Muslim is a bad person and a terrorist? No of course not and most are not. But in the eyes of the Koran it calls these good people bad Muslims because they are not truly following their religion. The Koran calls these peaceful Muslims hypocrites and says it is OK for a good Muslim (as in a terrorist) to kill them and take their property. Perchance do you think that might have something to do with the fact that many peaceful Muslims seem reluctant as a group to criticize the terrorists?

It has been stated that the Koran is a clear and concise record of the life and teachings of Mohammad. Yet when independent researchers review it they find that it to be anything but clear and concise. Translators frequently had to add missing words to sentences just to make them make sense. Is it too much to expect that the writings supposedly portraying the thoughts of a god would be somewhat grammatically correct? Also while the Koran is basically the story of Mohammad’s life there is no chronological order to it. The individual stories where originally handed down orally for many years but when they were finally put into writing they were written down in the order that they were received and not in the order that they occurred. Thus making it difficult at best for someone to read it and fully understand what is actually being said.

Yet when the different stories Koran are put into chronological order the true pattern of Mohammad’s life becomes much clearer. Unfortunately it is not a picture of peace and love.

There are a number of writers who have carefully studied the Koran and have all came to the same conclusion.
Craig Winn is the author of Profit of Doom and is one of the better ones. He used a composite of 5 different translations (seems the translators could not agree on one single precise translation of this clear and concise document) he then placed the Koran’s stories in chronological order and went pretty much went through it page by page. He also compared it to other writings from that time. For those willing to take the time to read the whole thing (over 950 pages) he doesn’t appear to have missed much and it is quite an eye opener into this “peaceful religion”. Prophet of Doom - Islam's Terrorist Dogma in Muhammad's Own Words

[Nadda]

Personally i truly dont understand any religion nor do i know much about any religion. I support christanity and do occasionally attend church because it does encourage peace and well being for everyone. As far as the bible i really have no desire to understand it. I cant understand how people abide by everything that comes from a book that was written long ago by who knows how many different people. That goes for the quran as well. How can anyone really know who wrote what?

I refuse to believe any animal should ever be a sacrifice or that anyone should spend their lives worshiping any god. I believe some form of god created this place but we are here alive to experience it not to spend our lives worshipping someone for it. Those just feel like cult behaviors in my mind. I love and appreciate my parents but i dont worship them.

Personally i believe in inner peace and self enlightenment which i think relates closer to buddism than anything else.

As far as your post kevin, i dont think you can apply any specific criteria to any large group of people. Every person is different, hopfully most are enlightened enough to co-exist with diversity. At the same time personally i understand the hatred some christians have considering the amount of terrorism that is happening everyday. Radical christians may have done much evil in the past but all that everyone see's is the evil radical muslims are doing today.

[noises]

re, the founding fathers, The majority of them were Protestant. However, for Jefferson to have signed his name on that document, he would have been adamant the wording recognising the primacy of the creator(s) be clearly non-secular and non-denominational.

I haven't done too much study into the backstory of the kinds of discussions and debates that would no doubt have happened as the Declaration was composed, I'm jumping to a huge conclusion, of course, about Jefferson, I couldn't cite one piece of evidence. But it just seems logical. The guy wrote his own bible. Franklin wasn't big on "The Church" either.

Anyway, to me, the most interesting part of the preamble is not the wink and the nod to "the creator," but the part where it says the government's just powers come out of the consent of the governed. Maybe all it takes to be a good American is to not consent to unjust government. Maybe that was the whole point of freedom.

The part where it says 'all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,' almost alludes to it being OK for every man to have their own relationship with and understanding of what their creator is. If I was a muslim and an American, to me, to me that would read as I was endowed by my god to have the same rights as any american christian created by his god, any American new ager and his or her god or goddess, an American evolutionist and his or her DNA and dumb luck. It's deliberately and enticingly ambiguous wording for such an auspicious document.

[noises]

Some of the (1787) delegates had no religious affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to those of deists

I think it's true to say those most instrumental in constructing the document's syntax were deists who intended it to be inclusive, respectful and intentionally religiously ambiguous, to implicitly allow for freedom of religion without creating any division in their own multi-theological ranks by explicitly offending anyone's "my god is the one true god" sensibilities (for want of a better word.) There's so much virtue in that, so much integrity and pragmatism, let people believe what they want, as long as they're good people and the work hard, who cares who they pray to, or if they do at all. I agree, you could power a small town if you attached magnets to the toes of the founding fathers and let them spin in their graves over what's happened there since they've passed. Their vision is a long way from Jesus being with the troops in the 'Stan, more about people from the 'Stan who don't like it there because it's oppressive and backward and mean spirited having somewhere better to go, where they'd be welcomed as long as they lived within the law and respected their fellow man's rights.

You've heard the phrase "I don't like that guy, I think I'll have to get to know him better?" That's how I felt about America in general for a while when I was younger. So I did some study, came to understand the principles the country was founded on and found a lot to love about America in that. Somehow the best of the country got lost in the buy and sell, razzle dazzle and gung ho mentalities. All it needs is leaders today to push it back in the direction the nation chose for itself at birth.

[Aaron]

religion and propaganda

re, the founding fathers, The majority of them were Protestant. However, for Jefferson to have signed his name on that document, he would have been adamant the wording recognising the primacy of the creator(s) be clearly non-secular and non-denominational.

I haven't done too much study into the backstory of the kinds of discussions and debates that would no doubt have happened as the Declaration was composed, I'm jumping to a huge conclusion, of course, about Jefferson, I couldn't cite one piece of evidence. But it just seems logical. The guy wrote his own bible. Franklin wasn't big on "The Church" either.

The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine - Free eBook

That is a quick read and gives a good view of the mindset of the Deist
by Thomas Payne. I'm not saying I agree with everything in that book,
but it is necessary to read these things if we want to get into the mind
of those that associated with each other back then. Some of the points
I'm not sure about and others, no Christian can debate with any
rationality whatsoever.

----------------------------------

Many Christians (free thinking ones) didn't believe in institutionalizing
their own religion. Payne (Deist) said his own mind was his church.
And many of the Christians considered their HOME (husband,wife,kids)
to be their church - any group of 2 or more.

And seeing that most if not all were Freemasons, the common bond is
that they all believe in a Supreme Being - the GAOTU (Great Architect
of the Universe) - not where each person has 'their' own Creator
in a sense that each has a different God, but
is one singular Deity that created it all and each person is encouraged to
practice their own religion since it is their own cultural way of learning
about the one and same GAOTU. Meaning, God obviously speaks to each
person based on their own language, traditions, etc... and it is recognized
that it is all the same God.

But with the topic of the forum, from the standpoint of the Founding
Fathers, Muslims were not only tolerated, they were welcomed by
Washington, Jefferson, etc... and there is incontrovertible proof in
the post I made with the references. So being that this is what the
Founding Fathers of this country intended - any American today that
spreads hate against Muslims (almost totally fueled by propaganda) -
are un-American and completely disrespects the Founding Fathers.

I get liberal propaganda by my liberal friends and conservative
propaganda from my conservative friends. The emails I get from my
conservative friends are mostly about spreading hate and most are
from Christians. I get bad taste jokes about lynching and hanging
Muslims, etc... and it is overwhelmingly obvious that very few even
make a distinction between radical extremists and the general masses.
And I get these video links from them where Obama is supposed to be
saying that he was not born in the United States. I do believe he was
born in Kenya - but those videos are obviously faked/edited and for
them to be so naive to spread that stupidity is amazing.
And I can see that some know that they are fake but spread it anyway
because it supports the mindset they want to spread.

Bottom line is that sort of Christian propaganda is garbage and is
completely hypocritical because it goes contrary to what Jesus Christ
is supposed to have taught. So if I were to judge Christians by their
acts/works without knowing anything in the bible, I'd have to say it
is a religion that is about teaching people to hate others that don't
believe the same, about killing them and spreading the message of
hate to other Christians. (the far right wing Christians that is)

Seeing that the teabaggers (who would be lost without their socialist
security and medicare) blow around like leafs in the wind and don't have
the guts to simply not file their IRS forms at tax time to be true to
their cause, they listen to Glen Beck and other comedians that
spread stupidity and hate on a non-stop ongoing basis - the spreading
of hate isn't isolated to just a handful of "Christians" - MILLIONS of
Christians listen and go along with Glen Beck and the other extreme
right wing wackos DAILY - therefore meaning that there are Millions of Christians
that condone and support that fear and hate mongering meaning they're
all a bunch of hypocrites because they are doing ANYTHING BUT living
the teachings of Jesus Christ. There ARE millions of Christians that go
along with that garbage because that is what their audience is
composed of - MILLIONS of them.

So as Mad Scientist said - if most Muslims are "bad" Muslims because they
don't carry out the violent commands - IF that is what the Koran teaches
it is equally true that most Christians are "bad" Christians since they
don't live and preach the teachings of Jesus but spread messages of
hate and violence against the Muslims.

I know all Christians aren't like this - thankfully - but it is a minority from
my observation that are very level headed and don't buy into the
propaganda and do live the teachings of Jesus - not 100% (they have
credit cards and mortgages supporting banks that make usury fees,
which goes against both the Old and New Testament - so they are
supporting a system that violates God's commands and what Jesus
upheld). Things like that but they're not going out of their way to
spread messages about killing Muslims - not that kind of extreme defiance
of what Jesus taught.

I'm not a fan of my extreme liberal friend's propaganda either - almost comes
down to holding hands in a circle, sing Kum Ba Ya, smile and the world
will be a Utopia in the blink of an eye if we were all brain dead and numb
to reality and just pass all our problems onto those that know what is
best for us. lol - I still love them but Man! Obviously not all liberals are
that naive but the airwaves for the liberal media are filled with just
as many liars as the conservative media.

When the general public wake up and see that they're nothing but
pawns of the same dark force (liberals & conservatives), we'll make progress.

In 1995, God revealed to me the real spiritual war going on between the
Light and Dark on the other side of the "veil" - "in the Heavens".
Between August 2001 and
June 2002, even more was revealed to me about this same battle and it
is not hypothetical or even theoretical - it is actually happening and it
even crosses the boundaries of time, it includes beings from both
Light and Dark and even involves technologies virtually unimaginable
by the human mind. In the summer of 2006, I was given more validation
of this war and a vision of it's progress. What we see happening on this
planet is a mirror image of what is happening in the heavens.

My personal spiritual belief would be Deist with the acknowledgment
that a human being can become Christed through the application of various
principles. It is taught plainly in the Old and New Testament. I believe
that Jesus the Christ (or whatever the name of that special being really
was during that time, whether it was Jesus, Apollonius, etc...) - doesn't
matter to me - there was someone that was the last great Master to
teach the world by example the path to Divinity. It starts in the "Garden
of Eden" and ends in the "Garden of Eden" but with CHOICE in the end.
It is hidden in plain sight and is the riddle of riddles.

Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing Lama's follow up on addressing those
particular versus that Kevin posted from the perspective of a Muslim.

Someone close to me lived in a small grass hut in a little village outside
of Tambacounda, Senegal - a Muslim country. For 2 years the people
in the village took her in as family. They're Muslim, pray to Mecca
multiple times a day and are very reverent to Allah, and are some of
the most peaceful and hospitable people she'd ever met. She was a
health educator. Most of them CANNOT even read the Quran. So
perhaps they are unaware of the claim that they should have slaughtered
this "infidel" instead of treating her like family. If they cannot read it
and are unaware of that - (most Christians do NOT understand or study
the entire Bible) - then they CANNOT be "bad" Muslims because they
are NOT defying something that they are not aware of.

And that is IF the Quran is really teaching what is claimed in the proper
context.

It is the same case for MILLIONS of Muslims in many
countries for example that CANNOT read but they practice
the daily Muslim rituals. AND, they RESPECT & ADMIRE
Americans. They like to wear American clothes, watch American television,
listen to American music, etc...

My own mother lived in Saudi Arabia in the 4th grade. Her dad (my
grandfather) worked for Aramco - he worked on oil rigs, flew
cargo planes, was a genius with mechanical jobs and made really, really
good money. They all lived on an American compound there. They
weren't serious church goers but were Southern Baptist.

My grandfather became fluent in Arabic and he had a LOT of Arabs
as friends including one of the King's personal guards. I bet you
he knew the Quran quite well! Was he risking getting beheaded by
associating with my grandfather "an infidel"?

Anyway, they'd all 3 (get in the car and go out exploring to places they were "not
supposed to go" and when going by, some homes, the people would come
out, flag them down and invite them into their homes and fed them.
They were very hospitable and were happy to make the acquaintance
of these non-Muslims (my grandparents and my mother). These were
not West African Muslims, these were Saudi Muslims.

[Aaron]

great post!

I think it's true to say those most instrumental in constructing the document's syntax were deists who intended it to be inclusive, respectful and intentionally religiously ambiguous, to implicitly allow for freedom of religion without creating any division in their own multi-theological ranks by explicitly offending anyone's "my god is the one true god" sensibilities (for want of a better word.) There's so much virtue in that, so much integrity and pragmatism, let people believe what they want, as long as they're good people and the work hard, who cares who they pray to, or if they do at all. I agree, you could power a small town if you attached magnets to the toes of the founding fathers and let them spin in their graves over what's happened there since they've passed. Their vision is a long way from Jesus being with the troops in the 'Stan, more about people from the 'Stan who don't like it there because it's oppressive and backward and mean spirited having somewhere better to go, where they'd be welcomed as long as they lived within the law and respected their fellow man's rights.

You've heard the phrase "I don't like that guy, I think I'll have to get to know him better?" That's how I felt about America in general for a while when I was younger. So I did some study, came to understand the principles the country was founded on and found a lot to love about America in that. Somehow the best of the country got lost in the buy and sell, razzle dazzle and gung ho mentalities. All it needs is leaders today to push it back in the direction the nation chose for itself at birth.

GREAT POST!