Fuelless Engine Disk Motor & SP500 Generator

[Jim Bromely]

Sky,
Thanks for that information. Very interesting phenomenon. Ill have to look up that kind of motor and get an idea of whats going on , though I think ive got it. It looks like you are achieving a great amount of efficiency. I was thinking of adding another coil on top of my motor after going over unity, and connecting them in parallel. But maybe the way to go is connect them in series, and maybe it will take less than double the voltage for the same torque. If you keep adding coils let us know the results. Thanks.

[forgeah]

A few questions on motor and generator

Sky,
Thanks for that information. Very interesting phenomenon. Ill have to look up that kind of motor and get an idea of whats going on , though I think ive got it. It looks like you are achieving a great amount of efficiency. I was thinking of adding another coil on top of my motor after going over unity, and connecting them in parallel. But maybe the way to go is connect them in series, and maybe it will take less than double the voltage for the same torque. If you keep adding coils let us know the results. Thanks.

Yes connecting them in series is the way to go. Im in the process of making the motor myself and the generator.

Jim I've a few questions for you about your motor and generator.

1. What AWG wire is that coil you made for the motor. It appears to be around 27 AWG but hard to see from the pictures. Course the scale of the picture it could also be 20 AWG. I believe in the prototype they used 27 AWG wire but did suggest using a bigger wire.

2. What is the gap you have between the magnets on your shaft? It almost appears to be 1/2 inch to maybe a full inch. I know the plans suggest adding more magnets to achieve a certain horsepower. And the prototype used somwhere between an equivalent of 8-9 north poles and 8-9 south poles on the shaft, making that between 16-18 magnets and when using thinner ones up to 48-54 magnets. Im wondering if you actually want a closer gap between the magnets. And how many magnets do you really need to generate in the area of 150-200 Horsepower on the engine. The one thing I do worry about is that the prototype and what you show basically magnetizes the shaft, which in turns causes magnetic affects to the bearings being used. And possibly some current as fields collapse. This can play havoc with the life cycle of the bearings. Also is it possible that having the poles further from the shaft (say 2 inches away from the shaft instead of 1 inch or there abouts) would increase the torque and horsepower? Course the trade off here might be very hard to keep the outward force from ripping the shaft apart and the magnets (glued or in holders).

3. On your generator, what AWG wire are the coils made from? I believe the latest plans talk about AWG 18 or even AWG 15 wire for the coils on the disk style generator. I had an idea about the SP500 generator that you could put 10 coils around the outerpart (3 inch diameter coils) of the coil parts and also a smaller ring inside of that and so on and perhaps your disk could hold upward of 20 coils per disk all wired in series. Using AWG 15 wire, this should generate a tremendous amount of electricity at fairly low RPMs, say around 360 RPM. Then to scale it up just add another set of coils and magnet rotors to double what you output without too much effort.

4. I'm building holders for my motor shaft, so that the magnets are not glued to the shaft itself. It will allow me to reuse the magnets if I end up changing the design. All I really need is enough HorsePower to turn the generator at the speed desired to generate my electricity. But am really curious how many magnets it would take to get say 150 horsepower. If the air gap on the coils did not have to be as long as the magnets that are on the shaft, then it would be easy to test using a lot of different magnet set ups with the holders, while using a coil that us much longer inside than the magets being used. Just not sure how much you lose in power by doing that. Because it appears with each magnet set up you need a specific coil design just for that set up. That can get rather expensive when you are testing things.

[Jim Bromely]

Hello Forgeah,

First I want to say Ive done some fine tuning to the motor. Originally I posted it was running at 42 watts no load. Now its running at 23 watts, 1088 rpms. A huge improvement on efficiency. I lowered the shaft as far as possible so the magnets are deep into the coil, removed 2 commutator brushes so it uses only 2, to reduce drag. Then adjusted the timing of the commutator for max effeciency. Last I took the bearing seals off and soaked the bearings with WD-40 to loosen up the thick grease, then added Full Synthetic 5W-30 motor oil. I was surprised at the performance gain.
Ill try to answer your questions........

1. I went with 24 awg, one 11lb spool, about a mile and a half or wire. Just had to calculate the size of coil I wanted and how much resistance, and overall dimensions of the coil shape.

2. The gap on my magnets is about an inch. The reason for the gap is the strong repelling force of the magnets when placed side by side like that, something I didnt account for when I first started. I tested the magnetic force in the gap with another Neo magnet and there is a small decrease in the force but still very strong.
I havent had any problems with bearings because of the fluctuating magnetic field on the shaft. If there is current flow on the shaft and bearings it must be small. Ive can touch the rotating shaft bare handed with no shock at all.
One thing I wish I had done is make the magnets 2 inches out from the shaft instead of 1 inch. Would definitely be a huge improvement on tourque.
That would mean a larger coil and maybe the magnetic field not so concentrated in the center. I think the more torque the better for connecting to the generator. You are right about the trade off being the force on the magnets. Would want a solid way of connecting them to the shaft. Im now in the process of making the generator a seperate unit and connecting with pulleys to increase the torque to the generator. Will be a slower rotating generator but more torque.

3. I had a spool of 22 awg, then decided to go with 24 awg for the motor.
So I went with the 22 spool just because copper is expensive! Turned out to be a good choice for the size generator I made. I designed it for 500 rpm to get close to 60 hz. So 8 coils. But now with the pulley reduction Im targeting about 225 rpms, and about 30 hz ac. So I think your idea of more coils and slower rpms is a good choice. That way you can go slower and still generate 60 hz. My output will be kinda strange but at this point if I see over unity on the power Ill be very happy.
I originally had the generator connected directly to the motor shaft, but my best test was 39 watts output and 100 watts input. So about 39% efficiency. My motor just didnt have the torque because the coils of the generator are so far outside on the disk compared to the magnets on the motor. But you need the magnets rotating way out on the disk for magnet speed for voltage. Thats why im thinking now the idea is to create a generator that makes high power at low rpm, which is the right idea that you have, then use pulleys to increase the torque to the generator, and reduce the load on the motor. If I increase my torque by 3x I should be able to get 39watts x 3 = 117 watts, while at the same time my motor is still running at 100 watts. The generator will run slower though so I need to add more magnets and wire in the generator to get that power at the lower rpm. This is my current plan to get over unity.

4. I think thats a great idea to not glue the magnets. Ive had other ideas but I glued mine so they are there to stay I think. I read that Neodyms lose all magnetic strength at around 500 degrees so I cant put heat to the shaft to loosen the glue and get them off without fear of damage.
I see your test dilema. Once you make a coil it stays that way. A larger test coil I dont think will work because I found that for max efficiency the magnets have to be as close as possible to the wire and deep as possible in the coil. As the magnets spin they are producing electricity in the same flow direction as the supply voltage. Say your supply voltage is 100 volts. The motor is spinning and producing lets say 90 volts, so what your motor is really using is only 10 volts. The more you load it down the slower the magnets spin inside the coil, now making lets say 50 volts. Now the motor is using 50 volts. I found this out by lowering the coil from the shaft and it started consuming more power with no load. I suppose you could use a large coil for testing different magnet sets as long as you kept things consistent like distance from the coil and magnets from the shaft.
As far as big HP I really dont know. Im thinking for something like 150hp we are talking huge magnets, wire, and voltage. I think mine will go 4hp with a top coil and a solid 1200 volts.

[forgeah]

Jim,

I am currently using a 4" round rod x 24" long of UHMW Natural plastic to make the holder (cost for the plastic is about $38 from www.onlinemetals.com). That puts my magnets about 1 1/2 inches away from the shaft. Though I'm considering trying a 5" round one to get it 2" away from the shaft. You can get it cut the length you need then all you need to do is use a drill press or a small mill and lathe such as the sherline models to cut the piece to hold your magnets. Then put 1/8" pieces over the magnets to hold them in place. This also gives you the ability to cut the piece so that it can hold four sets of magnets rather than the 2 sets currently being used and also used in the prototype. Dont need to fill all the magnet slots till you have 4 coils though. This gives you a gap between the end of the magnet and the shaft. Use a split tapered bushing to hold the magnet holder to the shaft and steady in place. I suspect if you draw out how the thing should look on one end, you can get a machine shop to do the milling fairly cheap.

Rather than the square magnets that were used in the prototype and the 2 inch long ones you are using, I selected the 1" round cylinder magnets N52 1" long. In my study of magnets, I find its better that the whole magnet does not extend into the coil so that both poles are inside the coil. In essence the prototype has a north pole on one side of the shaft and a south pole on the other side with a normal steel shaft. This essentially creates a long magnet with the North pole on one side of the shaft and the south pole on the other side because the shaft becomes magnetized. So that it does not extend both poles into the coil. Using the longer magnets should also make it so the whole magnet is not extended into the coil.

Based on what size wire you used for your motor coil, I would suspect a larger wire might actually give more horsepower. Course that always comes back to the old dilema. A 24 AWG wire 11 lb spool gives you about 1250 feet or more of wire. A 15 AWG wire 11 lb spool gives you about 200 feet of wire. So you run into the, do I add more wire to get more windings? If so a 15 AWG coil with 1200 feet of wire would weigh in about 66+ lbs and cost 6 times as much. That big of a coil would have more resistance which should take less current to run the motor. Wish I had some way to guesstimate the Horsepower that would generate versus the 24 AWG wire to see if its worth trying. Making the coils is expensive. When you get your second motor coil set up I would be curious to find out how much horsepower that increases your motor versus the one coil you now have. That could make a really big difference in how fast you can rotate the magnets in the generator.

Now the Generator, I'm pretty sure I'm going to use coils using AWG 15 wire but I'm going to make them a bit bigger, (2" long vs 1 1/2" long). What I'm going for is bigger output at lower RPMs, so with the bigger wire I need to make the coil just a bit longer to get more windings in it. I dont see any reason the way the plans are that the coil stator cant be thicker than the prototype. The way I see it, there are 2 viable options for this whole set up. One is to have enough poles (Coils) per stator (say on the order of 20), to be able to run it at low RPMs (Say 360 RPM) and still produce 60 hz AC power output. Then add another stator with sets of magnets to double the 60 hz AC power output. And perhaps a third one that will only be used to fully run the motor once its up and running. Option 2 is to run really low RPMs say 36 RPMs to produce say 12-15 VDC, and build one or more inverters to create the AC power output at the level desired. The really low RPM's would almost guarentee the motor would run for a long long time before it would ever need any repair work. And most repair work on a motor like this would be in the brush system used with the coils, which just happend to be the cheapest part of this motor.

So you were generating 39 watts with 8 coils (AWG 22 wire for the coils). At what RPM were you getting that (500 RPM)? As per the motor you need to have the magnets turning as close as possible to the coils, down to the closest point to generate the most power. What size is each your coils 3" round x 1 1/2" long? And also the size of the magnets you used on the generator? What I intend to do for mine is use a N52 magnet 2" round and 1/2" thick and coils 3" round x 2" long using AWG 15 wire. I suspect from what I see in the plans the size of the wire really does matter on the generator especially at lower RPM's. Right now, you have 8 coils. But do you have magnets only on one side of the coils. If you add magnets with opposite polarity on the other side also rotating in the same direction, you could more than double your output.

You are right about using a pulley system with the motor, its possible to use pulleys to convert 1 to 7 so your plan of 1 to 3 should not be too much of a problem. Most swamp coolers use a 1 to 7 pulley set up, so I know its possible. Then if your motor is running at 360 RPM, its possible to have the generator 7 times that (provided it has the torque to do it). Or say you planned on 500 RPM, then run the motor at 250 RPM and convert 1 to 2, giving you 500 RPM on the generator (which should reproduce your 39 Watt output, if that was he RPM you were running it at?). In fact probably the easiest thing to test would be to have the pulleys needed to get 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 1 to 4, 1 to 5, 1 to 6 and 1 to 7 (oh and the belts too). Then test each one at a specific speed and see what kind of output you get. That is kind of the approach I intend to follow to see if the speed increase produces a uniform increase in power output. Belts are considerably cheaper than magnets at least. I would be curious to see what you get if you try something like that.

Just about done with my holder using the 4" round plastic. Plan on creating a set of pictures to show each item as I get them completed. Will see if I can get them up here so you can see them.

[Jim Bromely]

Forgeah,

The 24Awg 11 pound spool was labeled at 7500'. Took me a good long time to get that coil made with that much wire. The plans said to target about 300 ohms coil resistance. The 24 awg spool has 240 ohms so I went with that thinking close enough for my first motor.
I like your generator idea. I was thinking too to go lower voltage with thicker wire for charging 12v batteries, then using inverter for ac.

I forgot to mention my 8 pole generator right now only has 2 coils installed. I did lots of testing with the 2 coils and different load resistance to find the optimum power output, then get an idea where to go from there.
I decided to make everthing 7/8 inch. I got a good deal on 7/8 x 7/8 round magnets so I made the coils 22 awg, 7/8 thick, 7/8 air core, and 7/8 x 3 wide. Coil resistance about 7 to 8 ohms. Everything 7/8.
Instead of 1 magnet passing on each for a total of 2, I made it with 2 magnets passing on each side for a total of 4 magnets, for max output. Another reason to make everything 7/8". Seems to work well.
The 39 watts I can get with one coil at about 700 rpms. I think that is the optimum efficiency my motor is running at. One coil with 4 magnets loaded down really slows down the motor. Alot of magnets, 16 on each disc.
At 225 rpms one coil will produce about 15 watts. So 15 x 8 would be 120 watts, while my motor runs at 700 rpms at close to 100 watts.
Yes a slow running system would be great. My brushes are about worn through, using brass brushes and copper commutator. I have plans to make steel on steel. I have some old dirtbike fork tubes that will be perfect for replacing the copper commutator. Just need to find some flexible steel for the brushes.
I had the same idea, to get different pulleys for testing different ratios.
I found a belt called a "link belt" on Amazon.com. Looks like a good way to go and has high ratings. Its like a chain for pulleys, with links you can remove or add for desired length, and looks like it would have a lower resistance for the motor than a thick belt would. Expensive but Im going to go with it to save as much energy as possible. Probably be a while before I get to that point. Id like to see your pics when you get them. Sounds like you are doing your homework on this and planning ahead.
Happy motoring

[forgeah]

Jim,

Hmmm, yep I read the specs on the wire wrong. Lets see since those 11 lbs spools could be anywhere from 9-12 lbs, and AWG 24 is listed at 790.5 feet/lb, then 9-12 lbs would be 7114.5 feet to 9486 feet. And the AWG 15 wire is listed at 99.6 feet/lb so it would be 896.4 feet to 1195.2 feet. Guess I need to check the resistance of the AWG 15 wire and see what it comes out at.

Interesting 7/8 x 7/8 magnets are not too bad strength wise. Brass brushes, hmmm thought the brass would have lasted longer. Check out Online Metal Store | Small Quantity Metal Orders | Metal Cutting, Sales & Shipping | Buy Steel, Aluminum, Copper, Brass, Stainless | Metal Product Guides at OnlineMetals.com I suspect you can find some sheet or rectangle stock there that might just solve the problem. They have a really good selection. I have been using them for a while now on most of my metal working projects.

[Jim Bromely]

Very cool website. Thanks for posting the link.

[abrec]

Scroll back to my post for a link for it.



EDIT:
I poked around and found one of many discs,
it has 109 files you can go through yourselves.

Get a copy while you can,
share with all you know,
sort them yourself ...

"Creative Science & Research.RAR"

Single-File Win-RAR Archive:
116-MB (122,360,340-bytes)

Unpacked Archive = 109-Files:
171-MB (179,841,527-bytes)

Get It Here:
Download Creative_Science___Research.RAR

Or here:
Creative_Science___Research.RAR]Mozillashare - Easy way to share and deposit your files - 116.7 Mb

Note:
They takes all the spaces and special characters out and replace them with underscore's...

excuse me,
did not manage to get the files there by the links in fireFox and IE as well.
could you repost them at some different place&
thank you

[lucsogo]

Please, re-up

The link do not work, please re-up to another server.

tnx!

[RangerMikey]

update?

Jim, I had been reading your progress and noticed that you had not post in a long time. What were the results from your build in the end?

[TheStone]

Any updates ?

I was wondering if there anyupdates on this thread, as I am planning to buy the plans, I know there are all over the web, just want to do things right. Any COP > ?

Thanks!
The Stone

[TheStone]

Dont bother...

I have bougth both pdf's the The SP500 generator, and the Fulless Engine, to do things right, even they are all over the web, I been trying to get support from this guy asking simple questions, and nothing!!! no even one question.

IT is a fraud!!!

I will try to get my refund from Paypal.

But dont bother to buy, from my point of view there is no visible working prototype from this, you have to gather other info from the web to make something useful, better download it from the web, than pay this guy.

The Stone

[TheStone]

C.S. Files

excuse me,
did not manage to get the files there by the links in fireFox and IE as well.
could you repost them at some different place&
thank you

Here is a place in the web you can download all of them.

Creative Science & Research.rar | Ulož.to

[abrec]

Here is a place in the web you can download all of them.

Creative Science & Research.rar | Ulož.to

Thank you!
But there are no such plans like this - SP-500!
SP-500 is here:
Download 500 - Spiral Coil Generator SP500.pdf for free - Ebookbrowse.com - Ebook Search & Free Ebook Downloads

[ajmax2017]

SP 500 Generator project

Hello guys i have been working on that project for a wile and like to share the results https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6amYNHJVDI&t=21s the thing is I am not getting desirable results even i purchased the gold kit from Creative Science, lets discuss