Gray Tube Replication

[Electrotek]

Grid Bias

I did what I could to increase the gradient of my 5/8" grid. I have some control over the effect by how long I charge the cap. I'm going to have to restrict what I release.



"Don't feed the trolls"

[nat1971a]

thats quite a spark you have got going there!!!

[Electrotek]

Thanks. I kind of like it.

[Beshires1]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. Ignition coils are quite hearty little buggers and can be abused a little. A capacitor is only as good as the dielectric between the plates, and the breakdown rating is usually pretty accurate. The problem is, I can't find any voltage specs on any automotive condensers, so I'm just guessing. I have found some text which says that auto condensers need to handle a few hundred volts of back EMF from the primary coil. But if I'm switching 100-150V on the primary, I would expect a back EMF of at least several hundred volts.

OK Some condensers can handle up to 400 volts (Back spikes from the primary) If your getting plenty of spark then I wouldn't worry about it. I was only suggesting their use because they are designed to work with the ignition coils. With a condenser and my 12V battery I am able to easily able to produce strong sparks that will Jump 1" and some can reach out two and a half inches seeking a ground. I would still recomend their use in addition to your regular system capacitor. Maybe use diodes to block the larger spikes from the condenser. Just a thought.

[What The Flux]

OK Some condensers can handle up to 400 volts (Back spikes from the primary) If your getting plenty of spark then I wouldn't worry about it. I was only suggesting their use because they are designed to work with the ignition coils. With a condenser and my 12V battery I am able to easily able to produce strong sparks that will Jump 1" and some can reach out two and a half inches seeking a ground. I would still recomend their use in addition to your regular system capacitor. Maybe use diodes to block the larger spikes from the condenser. Just a thought.

Wow that's pretty impressive! That means you should have on the order of 30KV. I think I'm getting around 8-10KV from discharging 100V from 330uF. I did take your advice and put some mylar caps across the relay and it helped reduce the sparking a bit. But I need to get some slightly bigger caps.

Yesterday I also moved my spark gap inside the grids (carbon still outside). Didn't have much time to test after that, so I'll let y'all know later.

@electrotek
Also very impressive, that ball of lightning you created. Where have you documented your circuit? I'm starting to lose track as all these forums get larger.

[Electrotek]

@What The Flux:

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: pufftubesm3.jpg

That's my basic circuit, except I've deleted the bottom cap, for now, and some other minor change. The cap will move to the right of the diode, in parallel across the Tube's arc.

Speaking of circuits, I've figured out how to extend your circuit to conform with the patent. Just extend the top and bottom lines on out towards the right and connect another spark gap and capacitor in parallel, between the top and bottom lines. This additional spark gap across the new cap should arc all the time, similar to a Tesla Coil primary.

Then, you need to extend the line from the gird on out, to a 'third electrode' for this additional spark gap. That's what my circuit is. The only difference is I have the third electrode close enough that it arcs all the time, while the patent has it farther away. It's up to you how to put it.

The HV cap doesn't have to be very big, without a heavy load like a motor. A couple of sheets of foil with several sheet protectors (from the office supply) should be enough, with the plastic sheets between the foils. Just so you have both a cap and a spark going through the CSET.

[Guest]

@all, did you check the first Gray patent from 1975? I tend to forget that one all the time and when I checked it I realized the sparking is probably central in all his patents because he came from cap banks and spark gaps and then added the Gray tube and redesigned the circuit a bit. Maybe all beginners should start out without the tube, it sems much simpler if you ask me.

However the basic concept is the same in the first patent, discharge multiple caps across sparks gaps to an inductive load and the load is described in detail in this patent. It seems some of you are right on track with your work anyway, this patent is just something that made me look an extra time..

PS: Gray only applied for 3 patents then health got really bad...

[Electrotek]

@Gauss:

Yes, it's interesting that the first patent used a large number of capacitors, each with it's own ignition coil/transformer. With the CSET circuit, Gray was able to eliminate all of the caps, except the three which supplied the Power Conversion Tubes.

Gray's early circuit was based somewhat on the '71 Phinney circuit from the jet engine ignition patent (#3619638). That circuit used dual transformers and pulse forming techniques, which Gray simplified.

The key to the early motor was the magnetic harness, which was wrapped around the outside of the motor, in the middle. These two coils are called the delay line, as well as the floating static field coil. The way Gray explained it was that one magnetic effect cannot occur inside another. In other words, the delay line was a choke, and what it delayed was the passage of the pulse through the motor coils. This caused the pulse to bunch up, or compress. Pulse compression is the key to getting large amounts of power from a pulse motor.

And you are correct about the importance of the spark gaps. Hackenberger reverse engineered the EMA-6 motor, using solid state electronics rather than sparks. His motor only put out a dismal 2HP. It might have been different if he had been wise enough to use vacuum tubes, which can closely simulate an arc discharge.

Gray also maintained that the floating static field was what caused the motor coils to ice up. And he was able to demonstrate Over Unity using these two coils on a plastic form, without a motor in the circuit. He was very shrewd - even brilliant - when he designed the CSET circuit, since this circuit incorporates the same effect without the delay line.

And, yes, Gray did pay the price for his heavy smoking. He might not have had his heart attack when he went downstairs that night to confront a possible intruder, if he had taken his oxygen tank.

It's also unfortunate that he lost control of the rights to the CSET. His only somewhat impressive coil popping demonstrations had to rely on Ignitrons, and the circuit was somewhat cumbersome. (Circuit attached)

[Guest]

Magnetic compression sounds interesting to me.

Did you compare that with the late VICs of Stan? There you have the exact phenom if you ask me. All the great EEs seem to be able to integrate transformer, inductors and caps into one brilliant component. It seems like integration is key to success but that is just my take.

Thanks for your info, very useful. How about Frits Lens, dead?

[Electrotek]

@Gauss - I seem to be unfamiliar with the terms "VICs of Stan" and "Frits Lens"?

[Guest]

I mean Stanley Meyer and the late Voltage Intensifier Circuits with multiple spools for node generation. I even have a rather clear pic of how to improve his configuration, letīs see if itīs possible. But I now believe anyone doing the WFC should forget the first VIC, it is no good even if the result is there in a small way.

For Lens I believe he was key engineer fro Gray.

[Electrotek]

I haven't delved into Stanley Meyer's stuff too much. I think it's workable, but there has to be a simpler way. I am happy to see there's a lot of his information here on this forum. I'll see what I can find out about Lens. Thanks.

[Guest]

So I checked and found out he is not around...

Pls check the late VIC, it is real simple and should do a lot good although not perfect I believe... . Turns out the late VIC is probably a much better generator(Transformer, Ind, R and cap in one piece) than the simple Gray tube although Grayīs receiver is far superior, try to combine them.

[Guest]

I meant the HV-LV generator of Gray compared to the late VIC(magnetoelectric wave generator), sorry. His tube is probably just fine.

[Aaron]

measuring HV at the cap

Re measuring high voltage; you can just use two resistors in series, one a tenth of the value of the other, and take your measurement off the two sides of the smaller one. That'll give you a reading of 300v if it's 3000v

Here's some links

Voltage divider circuits : DIVIDER CIRCUITS AND KIRCHHOFF'S LAWS

Voltage divider calculator - loaded and open-circuit damping volts potentiometer - sengpielaudio

Great idea Inquorate! I didn't even think of it at the time. It would be more accurate to since the HV probe does 50kv I believe so it would be hard to see really where it is as.