Where is the free energy?

[mbrownn]

Nature reacts not only on energy but also on power! And reaction is frequently different ! So if somebody tell you that it doesn't matter if you release energy slowly or quickly, do not believe !
You can have almost COP=2 with simple transformer with iron/ferrite core ....

I believe you. Could you describe how that would be done?

My thoughts are that you pulse a transformer with DC and achieve an AC output, half of the wave being inductive kickback, is there another method?

Impedance matching only optimizes power transfer. It does not isolate the load from the source.
Anything which is in resonance can only have a relatively small amount of energy withdrawn directly from the resonant circuit without screwing it up (in my experience).
Depending on the device, energy should instead be extracted indirectly. For example: A Milkovic double oscillator does not extract energy directly from the swinging pendulum. It rather extracts energy from the lever attached to the pendulum. It extracts energy at 90 degrees to the direction of the pendulum.
Pulsing a battery at its resonant frequency, or some harmonic, would be another case. The battery goes into resonance and better charging is a result. Energy is being extracted from the environment as a result of resonance, instead of from the circuit itself.
It can be tricky sometimes...

Yes, when 3 coils are on the same core but here we have two cores which are magnetically independent. When the two high voltage coils are in resonance, the magnetic field of the second transformer is at 90 degrees to this resonant current, and independent of the magnetic field created by the input. Drawing current from the low voltage side of this second transformer cannot effect the magnetic field of the first transformer directly, it can only lower the impedance of the secondary transformer. Of course that will effect our resonant circuits frequency but if our impedance is low enough to start with and the transformer large enough, the effect will be small.

As I said previously, caps loose about 50% in their charge/discharge cycle but now we have replaced a cap with an inductance which is much less lossy. It may be that there is much more of the resonance gain available to use as an output.

[Ernst]

I had come to the same conclusion as you when I saw the video but now I'm beginning to wonder. Think of what is happening.

1) When you pulse a transformer with DC, if the frequency is fast enough and the duration of the pulse is short enough, we get an AC output. (its not a sine wave AC but it is AC) One polarity of the AC is a direct transformer action and the second polarity is the inductive kickback.

2) This AC signal is fed into another coil on a second transformer.

3) Maybe the output of the first transformer and the coil on the second transformer act as a resonant circuit. Its like an LC circuit with one coil acting as L and the other acting as C and reversing when the polarity reverses. As there is no capacitor loss of 50% it may be possible that with each oscillation the power increases by as much as 2x. I'm just speculating here but hear me out,

4) This resonant circuit is also added to every cycle by the pulse

5) The oscillations in this circuit cause an AC current in the secondary transformer which we can feed to a load.

Assuming we had no losses that would be a potential COP of 4 or 1x2x2=4

Is this possible? have I missed something? or am I making a pole pig of my self?

If you could create very rapid voltage changes, there is a theoretical possibility that you would tap into an energy source, but that is not what is happening in this video. It is a very simple 50 Hz sine AC generator connected to a pole pig.
Second, a resonant rise increases the energy in the system by adding a previous pulse to the current pulse. As you also supplied the previous pulse there is no energy gain. It is like this: I put 1 coin on the table, I put another coin on top and another one, and another one.
Then I say; "look I put one more coin on the table, and now there are 5!, 1 in and I can take 5 out; COP=5!!!"
Perhaps the swing example could clarify this better.
I have a swing hanging motionless. Now I give it a push, away from me. It moves away from me until all of the kinetic energy that I added is converted into potential energy. Then it stops and starts moving toward me. If no energy was lost it will come the same distance towards me as I pushed it away from me, so I pushed it x meters away but then it moves 2x meters back; COP=2!!!"
In each of these examples there is NO energy gain, the energy in the system is only the energy that you added....



Ernst.

[mbrownn]

If you could create very rapid voltage changes, there is a theoretical possibility that you would tap into an energy source, but that is not what is happening in this video. It is a very simple 50 Hz sine AC generator connected to a pole pig.

I agree and this is my original reason for dismissing the video.

Second, a resonant rise increases the energy in the system by adding a previous pulse to the current pulse. As you also supplied the previous pulse there is no energy gain. It is like this: I put 1 coin on the table, I put another coin on top and another one, and another one.
Then I say; "look I put one more coin on the table, and now there are 5!, 1 in and I can take 5 out; COP=5!!!"
Perhaps the swing example could clarify this better.
I have a swing hanging motionless. Now I give it a push, away from me. It moves away from me until all of the kinetic energy that I added is converted into potential energy. Then it stops and starts moving toward me. If no energy was lost it will come the same distance towards me as I pushed it away from me, so I pushed it x meters away but then it moves 2x meters back; COP=2!!!"
In each of these examples there is NO energy gain, the energy in the system is only the energy that you added....



Ernst.

I agree but this is not the case with a coil, we have inductive kickback provided that the conditions a right.

With LC circuits, the cap used may lower the frequency of the oscillation to a point where we don’t have this gain. With an LL circuit it may be possible as both coils have the potential to add energy.

Im not saying that I know how this double pole pig thing works, I just stumbled into this idea as I was posting. Bouncing Ideas back and forth is a good way of learning.

[Ernst]

Suppose I have a tube that provides water to a distant village. The tube has a 1 m² surface (when cut through) and a length of 10 km, thus a content of 10 million litres.
The water is flowing at a rate of 2 m/s, providing 2000 litres per second.
Now some $mart a$$ comes along and closes the tap on the far end, thinking that would stop the water.
There is a small little thing that this Mr. $mart a$$ overlooked: there is 10 million litres saying "I am not going to stop"; the energy of this water is 20 million joules. If the tap is closed in, let us say, 0.5 sec, then there is a power of 40 MW coming at you. The tap will be blown to bits.
Is there an energy gain in this story? No, because to get the water moving we had to first add 20 million joules, which we may have done over a period of a few hours.

Now compare this to electricity. We have a coil through which 10 amp is running. Now a strange dissimilarity appears, because the energy is not stored in the "flowing current" inside the wire, but in the magnetic field outside the wire. Other than that the story is the same, if we try to stop the current, the energy that we have built up will be released and the more abrupt you try to stop it, the more power you will see released.

Unfortunately, no energy gain here.



Ernst.

[mbrownn]

Suppose I have a tube that provides water to a distant village. The tube has a 1 m² surface (when cut through) and a length of 10 km, thus a content of 10 million litres.
The water is flowing at a rate of 2 m/s, providing 2000 litres per second.
Now some $mart a$$ comes along and closes the tap on the far end, thinking that would stop the water.
There is a small little thing that this Mr. $mart a$$ overlooked: there is 10 million litres saying "I am not going to stop"; the energy of this water is 20 million joules. If the tap is closed in, let us say, 0.5 sec, then there is a power of 40 MW coming at you. The tap will be blown to bits.
Is there an energy gain in this story? No, because to get the water moving we had to first add 20 million joules, which we may have done over a period of a few hours.

Now compare this to electricity. We have a coil through which 10 amp is running. Now a strange dissimilarity appears, because the energy is not stored in the "flowing current" inside the wire, but in the magnetic field outside the wire. Other than that the story is the same, if we try to stop the current, the energy that we have built up will be released and the more abrupt you try to stop it, the more power you will see released.

Unfortunately, no energy gain here.



Ernst.

Well put, I often use the hydraulic analogies myself but they don't work particularly well for coils in all cases, although it seams perfectly logical.

Lets go back to my first point, how we get an AC wave from a pulse in a transformer, I cant think of an analogy for that.

On charging a cap with a 1 joule pulse we find we have only half a joule in the cap except when a suitable coil is in series. It does not matter that the total length of wire is the same, so the inertia analogy does not fit.

Usually I use the flexible hose analogy here ie the hose expands storing some fluid. this being the analogy for the energy stored in magnetism. The problem is we have had to change out perimeters to make it fit and will go back to the old one where it suits. Our magnetism is at 90 degrees to our current, this does not fit the hydraulic analogy. Ok its good for helping people understand but both cant be right, its bad science. Something else is going on.

I am suggesting that inductive kickback is energy from another source, hence my thread. A bit like a leaky pipe in a submarine, every time a particular vibration occurs, you see water comes flooding in .

Now if we apply this to our model we see it works. So what we have to do next it test the theory with real experiments.

Coils can store energy more efficiently than caps, they may under some circumstances add energy to the system.

[Ernst]

Lets go back to my first point, how we get an AC wave from a pulse in a transformer, I cant think of an analogy for that.

A swing after being hit with a hammer will produce perfectly harmonious motion.
A transformer is a set of two coupled coils, each can act both as capacitor and inductor or both. In a single resonating coil the ends act as capacitor and the middle as inductor, thus forming an LC circuit. Charges accumulate at the end of the coil (=storage=capacitor) and move back through the middle (current - inductor) to the opposite end etc.
(see my vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEcZxqI2iwE)
This is what happens in your transformer.

On charging a cap with a 1 joule pulse we find we have only half a joule in the cap except when a suitable coil is in series. It does not matter that the total length of wire is the same, so the inertia analogy does not fit.

Not sure if that would always be the case. Where do you think the other half went?

Usually I use the flexible hose analogy here ie the hose expands storing some fluid. this being the analogy for the energy stored in magnetism. The problem is we have had to change out perimeters to make it fit and will go back to the old one where it suits. Our magnetism is at 90 degrees to our current, this does not fit the hydraulic analogy. Ok its good for helping people understand but both cant be right, its bad science. Something else is going on.

It's not that bad at all. Imagine a river with water flowing, fastest in the middle, slower near the edges. A floating object will thus be made to rotate, as the pull nearer to the middle of the river is faster. The same thing happens if you would shoot a bullet through smoke, you would get donut-shaped rotations in the smoke around the bullet's trajectory.
These donuts are our magnetic field line equivalents.

I am suggesting that inductive kickback is energy from another source, hence my thread. A bit like a leaky pipe in a submarine, every time a particular vibration occurs, you see water comes flooding in .

You may be right, but I don't think so.

Now if we apply this to our model we see it works. So what we have to do next it test the theory with real experiments.

True! Please proceed and let me know .


Ernst.

[mbrownn]

A swing after being hit with a hammer will produce perfectly harmonious motion.
A transformer is a set of two coupled coils, each can act both as capacitor and inductor or both. In a single resonating coil the ends act as capacitor and the middle as inductor, thus forming an LC circuit. Charges accumulate at the end of the coil (=storage=capacitor) and move back through the middle (current - inductor) to the opposite end etc.
(see my vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEcZxqI2iwE)
This is what happens in your transformer.

Love the instructional video I will save the link and use if for reference. The bit at 2.32 where you have current flowing out from the centre to both ends, how can this happen without current entering into the centre from the environment?

As I said before, I believe the first part of the AC output is a direct transformer action caused by the increasing flow of current in the primary. Remember this current in the secondary is not the current in the primary, it is a new flow of current. At the moment the supply is cut, is where it gets interesting. Polarity reverses and we get another new flow of current.

My question is how can this be energy stored in the magnetic field when the magnetic field has already done work of almost equal magnitude to the input, in the first half of the wave?

If one joule of energy was expended in the pulse and we get 0.8 joules of energy in the first half of the AC (that’s a normal efficiency), How come we get much more than 0.2 joules in the second half of the wave plus some heat too?

Its an anomaly. I must admit I do look for these anomalies because I believe they can be exploited.

Not sure if that would always be the case. Where do you think the other half went?

Obviously we have ohmic losses producing heat, our current remains proportional to the voltage so in truth we have lost voltage. You are right to ask where it went. I see 2 possibilities

1) Opposite charges attract, so maybe charges of the opposing value have been attracted to the poles from the environment and have cancelled out the charge.

2) Like charges repel, so maybe some of the charge has left the circuit and leaked out to the environment.

I cant prove any of this of course, but many have considered this a possibility, It has been named aether and radiant energy just to mention 2.

How do you explain the loss that is greater than the ohmic loss?

Im sure we could have an entire discussion just on this one point

It's not that bad at all. Imagine a river with water flowing, fastest in the middle, slower near the edges. A floating object will thus be made to rotate, as the pull nearer to the middle of the river is faster. The same thing happens if you would shoot a bullet through smoke, you would get donut-shaped rotations in the smoke around the bullet's trajectory.
These donuts are our magnetic field line equivalents.

I like the analogy although it does not fit model perfectly. Our magnet field around a wire is tangential as well as at 90 degrees, this is easily seen with a small compass. I have no idea whether it is dynamically rotating. The eddies you describe in the analogy are in line with the flow and that is why it does not quite fit the model although the do form a tangential ring as you say.

Another analogy that almost fits the 90 degree magnetic field is the flow of water in a whirlpool or going down the plug hole. The problem is it pulls up in your mind a rotating magnetic field, something we cant be sure of, and a spiralling magnetic field which has the same problem. It could be that the magnetic field is actually doing this as birkland currents do manifest in this way, but is it proven?

You may be right, but I don't think so.

I could say the same The thing is to keep an open mind and not get irate when someone disagrees Lets keep this chat going, there is much I can learn from you

True! Please proceed and let me know .


Ernst.

I was thinking about putting together a couple of ignition coils in a mini experiment but the Ohmic resistance of the secondaries is way too high which will lead to high losses masking any phenomenon that could exist. Even the high voltage side of portable welding transformers may be a little high. I don't know what the ohmic resistance of pole pigs are but they are way beyond my budget.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion and simple explanations, its a breath of fresh air.

[boguslaw]

Look at chobi car thread

[TheoriaApophasis]

Look at chobi car thread

at least anti-gravity exists, even if "free" energy does not.

[mbrownn]

Look at chobi car thread

I see four induction motors, maybe 1 hp each and some type of inverter, performance consistent with that amount of power and what appears to be a 72v 7Ah battery. Sorry I cant read Russian. I also see what appears to be a normal car battery under the hood. What are the claims?

I would expect it could reach about 35 Kph but obviously it wont be able to go very far with such a small battery, but maybe it has many of them.

[Ernst]

The bit at 2.32 where you have current flowing out from the centre to both ends, how can this happen without current entering into the centre from the environment?

You are talking about the first harmonic. Let's first take one step back to the fundamental.
In the fundamental oscillation charge moves from one end of the coil to the other, it gets 'compressed' in one end until the pressure is so high that it stops the current caused by induction (or inertia as Tesla sometimes says). At that moment all energy in the coil is potential energy stored in the ends of the coil that act as capacitor. But now we have the middle part of the coil experiencing an electric tension between its two ends and a current will start to flow, converting this potential energy into kinetic and building up inertia.
Thus when the electric potential on both ends is equal, there is no more potential energy, all is now kinetic (or magnetic). This now acts as the running train that does not want to stop (inertia) and thus it overshoots, in exactly the same manner as a swing that does not suddenly stop when it has reached its lowest point.
This continues until all energy is lost as heat, radiation or whatever other losses.
Now if we raise the frequency of the field that sets the coil in motion we get to a point of the first harmonic. What happens then is, the charges from both ends move to the middle of the coil where they meet and create a high voltage point, until this tension/voltage/pressure is high enough to stop the current. We now have a high pressure in the middle and low pressure at the ends, no movement; all energy is potential energy. Next it will start flowing back to both ends from the middle.
It is exactly the same as the fundamental with a mirror image on one end.
So to answer your question in a more compact manner: the charge flowing from the middle to the ends first moved from the ends to the middle.

As I said before, I believe the first part of the AC output is a direct transformer action caused by the increasing flow of current in the primary. Remember this current in the secondary is not the current in the primary, it is a new flow of current. At the moment the supply is cut, is where it gets interesting. Polarity reverses and we get another new flow of current.

If the current in the secondary does not perform any work, no energy is lost. It is still in your transformer and can be reversed, to go back to the primary.

My question is how can this be energy stored in the magnetic field when the magnetic field has already done work of almost equal magnitude to the input, in the first half of the wave?

The primary builds up a magnetic field which is (partly) converted into an electric potential in the secondary. If this potential is not used otherwise, then it will flow back just as it does in my single coil example, creating a magnetic field that in turn induces an electric potential in the primary. This process will continue in an harmonic oscillation until all energy is spent on losses.

Anyway, that is my guess.

I was thinking about putting together a couple of ignition coils in a mini experiment but the Ohmic resistance of the secondaries is way too high which will lead to high losses masking any phenomenon that could exist. Even the high voltage side of portable welding transformers may be a little high. I don't know what the ohmic resistance of pole pigs are but they are way beyond my budget.

In most ignition coils the iron core is just a rod, open on both ends. So you lose a lot of magnetic energy.
A welding transformer is made to be shorted, if it were a perfect transformer the primary would respond as if it were shorted too, blowing your fuses like pop corn. So welding transformers are made to leak most of their magnetic field. It would not be a good transformer for your experiments.
A MOT may be better after you remove the shunts (which cause magnetic leakage). It can be done if you are very careful.
But by far the best would be a distribution transformer or pole pig. They are made to minimize losses of all kind.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion and simple explanations, its a breath of fresh air.

Can you feel the warmth in this thread?







Ernst.

[mbrownn]

You are talking about the first harmonic. Let's first take one step back to the fundamental.
In the fundamental oscillation charge moves from one end of the coil to the other, it gets 'compressed' in one end until the pressure is so high that it stops the current caused by induction (or inertia as Tesla sometimes says). At that moment all energy in the coil is potential energy stored in the ends of the coil that act as capacitor. But now we have the middle part of the coil experiencing an electric tension between its two ends and a current will start to flow, converting this potential energy into kinetic and building up inertia.
Thus when the electric potential on both ends is equal, there is no more potential energy, all is now kinetic (or magnetic). This now acts as the running train that does not want to stop (inertia) and thus it overshoots, in exactly the same manner as a swing that does not suddenly stop when it has reached its lowest point.
This continues until all energy is lost as heat, radiation or whatever other losses.
Now if we raise the frequency of the field that sets the coil in motion we get to a point of the first harmonic. What happens then is, the charges from both ends move to the middle of the coil where they meet and create a high voltage point, until this tension/voltage/pressure is high enough to stop the current. We now have a high pressure in the middle and low pressure at the ends, no movement; all energy is potential energy. Next it will start flowing back to both ends from the middle.
It is exactly the same as the fundamental with a mirror image on one end.
So to answer your question in a more compact manner: the charge flowing from the middle to the ends first moved from the ends to the middle.

I always, without thinking, considered current flow as incompressible. Now I have thought about it I can see that that does not make sense. Of course if a charge is applied to current it makes sense that it could be compressed or stretched to some degree

Tesla did say electrical phenomenon had gas like properties.

This could also to explain some of the "built in capacitance" of some electrical components

If the current in the secondary does not perform any work, no energy is lost. It is still in your transformer and can be reversed, to go back to the primary.

Yes, if the secondary is open circuit and the primary has continuity.

The primary builds up a magnetic field which is (partly) converted into an electric potential in the secondary. If this potential is not used otherwise, then it will flow back just as it does in my single coil example, creating a magnetic field that in turn induces an electric potential in the primary. This process will continue in an harmonic oscillation until all energy is spent on losses.
Anyway, that is my guess.

But what if the secondary is powering a load?

n most ignition coils the iron core is just a rod, open on both ends. So you lose a lot of magnetic energy.
A welding transformer is made to be shorted, if it were a perfect transformer the primary would respond as if it were shorted too, blowing your fuses like pop corn. So welding transformers are made to leak most of their magnetic field. It would not be a good transformer for your experiments.
A MOT may be better after you remove the shunts (which cause magnetic leakage). It can be done if you are very careful.
But by far the best would be a distribution transformer or pole pig. They are made to minimize losses of all kind.

For different but equally valid reasons we are both agreed that ignition coils and welding transformers would not make good doners for such a test. That leaves the MOT, I will see if I can lay my hands on some. I must admit I find these a little scary as they have the ability to bite with lethal force.

Can you feel the warmth in this thread?







Ernst.

Yes, for sure.

You have given me a lot to think about with this post. Your first point, although I don’t know how it can be proven, makes a lot of sense now. Using the pneumatic analogy could be more straight forward than the hydraulic one in some cases. Of course it cant be used to explain magnetic effects but it is better.

[Ernst]

But what if the secondary is powering a load?

Energy is being removed from the transformer to the load....

That leaves the MOT, I will see if I can lay my hands on some. I must admit I find these a little scary as they have the ability to bite with lethal force.

I have got two pole pigs coming... Talking about deadly bites...

Can you feel the warmth in this thread?

Yes, for sure.

There is your free energy!


Ernst.

[mbrownn]

I have got two pole pigs coming... Talking about deadly bites...

Im jealous

Can you feel the warmth in this thread?

Yes, for sure.

There is your free energy!

Ernst.[/QUOTE]

[boguslaw]

I see four induction motors, maybe 1 hp each and some type of inverter, performance consistent with that amount of power and what appears to be a 72v 7Ah battery. Sorry I cant read Russian. I also see what appears to be a normal car battery under the hood. What are the claims?

I would expect it could reach about 35 Kph but obviously it wont be able to go very far with such a small battery, but maybe it has many of them.

On one charge this 72V 7Ah battery (probably a set of 6x12V 7Ah UPS batteries) inventor claimed to ride 800km