My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

A paradox

Thanks for the welcome Midas.

It should be clear by now that I know next to nothing on this subject other than the basics of a 'classical' 'conventional' school education.

But you seem to be posing a paradox where you reasonably ask if a consequence of this type of motor is more Amp draw...And if the extra torque is worthy of the extra Amps...But as I understand this topic so far, it is recognised by those replicating the motors that there is next to no heat generated or sparking at the commutators...Which is surely a waste of energy in the classical model...Where the corollary of your question is 'the classical model draws less Amps'.

So more Amps creates more torque and no heat...Where less Amps creates less torque and more heat.

I don't think I understand the question. Which is very likely.

mark

[iankoglin]

UFO recommends 'hedges' to close the slots.

I have found these two options -

Slot closures

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

Slot wedges

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

The first one describes what I want to do...the second one sounds like 'hedges'.

The closures look like an OK price considering I'm getting 99m of stuff I'll never use and the wedges are way expensive.

Helpful hints welcome

mark

G'day Mark

I found that I could use some thin strips of fibreglass or fibre board to use as wedges/hedges to hold the wire in the slots here is a pic

I also used the same material in the Imperial P56 motor slots

here
Imperial P56 Slideshow by Kogs1 | Photobucket
I used a copper PCB that was not satisfactory as the copper lifted when soldering so I cut it up into strips and etched the copper off

I hope this is of some use
Kindest Regards

Kogs Still working on his boat

[Midaztouch]

Thanks for the welcome Midas.

It should be clear by now that I know next to nothing on this subject other than the basics of a 'classical' 'conventional' school education.

But you seem to be posing a paradox where you reasonably ask if a consequence of this type of motor is more Amp draw...And if the extra torque is worthy of the extra Amps...But as I understand this topic so far, it is recognised by those replicating the motors that there is next to no heat generated or sparking at the commutators...Which is surely a waste of energy in the classical model...Where the corollary of your question is 'the classical model draws less Amps'.

So more Amps creates more torque and no heat...Where less Amps creates less torque and more heat.

I don't think I understand the question. Which is very likely.

mark

Hello Mark

Don't worry about your level. We are all here to share and learn. (I'm still a rookie!)lol

Top Dead Center(TDC) has a stronger repulsion field. Adding one more pole is closer to the bi-sector of the attraction field. My thought is that being closer to the two magnetic fields will create more torque. ..... But how will it effect "magnetic drag" and will the amps increase.

I like peak performance -vs- efficiency.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Midaztouch]

@Kogs


I hope that the Imperial goes into the boat! I'm sure everyone would really love to see some testing with the Imperial and the Dana JS Monster

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[iankoglin]

@Kogs


I hope that the Imperial goes into the boat! I'm sure everyone would really love to see some testing with the Imperial and the Dana JS Monster

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

G'day Midaz
Nope the motor is an E-Tech 40HP I have had this motor since I started to build 4-5 Years ago
Kindest Regards

Kogs flat out trying to finish his boat

[HuntingRoss]

Further consideration

Hi Midaz

After further consideration and reflection upon UFO's post above -

http://www.energeticforum.com/265579-post7103.html

My understanding is this. With careful design of the asym coil group the amp draw can be engineered to closely reflect the sacrificial sym motor by equalising the resistances.

If I have this correct, it suggests the amp draw would be similar/same with consequent benefits in torque, temperature and output voltage.

Hi kogs

I love the ingenuity of engineers faced with practical problems. This looks like an excellent sollution to low volume motor building.

Finally. My magnet wire has arrived posing the intriguing possibility that I can rebuild this weekend. Something must be aligned in the stars...I have never known the mail service to be SO organised.

mark

[Midaztouch]

Hi Mark

One thing you'll learn about this group is, speculation is fun but testing is definitive. We have some team members with a wealth of knowledge and experience from decades of testing and building. As you dig deeper into asymmetric machines, you will find some very intriguing points. We are establishing the overall system performance "OSP" of Asymmetrical Machines -VS- off the shelf symmetrical motors and generators.

For example the first asymmetric machines we made were in pairs north/south. The north-south winding is very powerful; high torque and high RPMs. So, if you look at the two parameters, torque & RPMs, the north-south windings were superior than the standard symmetrical motor. BUT it had a high amp draw, sparking at the comms and heat... This is part of the learning curve of Asymmetric Machines. A lot of lessons were learned.

With the north north(NN) asymmetric machines we have some objectives. ie: No need for a cooling system, less overall system cost, higher efficiency, comparable torque to the north-south pair asymmetric machines, higher RPMs, low amps, etc... So far so good but more testing and building is needed.

As a group we are concerned about making a compact motor-generator all in one. As for me, my eye tends to look towards MAX performance and/or max efficiency! So, from time to time, you will see some post from me that deviate from the motor-generator concept.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[prochiro]

Motor Testing

[/IMG]

Hello All
This is a small program I made to, well, the picture says it all. The problem is that I am not sure how to get it to anyone here. If anyone has an idea, well, you know, let me know.

Dana

[DadHav]

Wow, nice job Dana. I'll use this one too when you figure out how to get it out.
John
You mean you can't upload files here?

[HuntingRoss]

but more testing and building is needed.

Hi Midaz

Needless to say I'm way behind the curve to be useful but I'm glad to be part of it and learn from the shoulders of giants.

Dana. Is that an Excel / MS Access programme ? It looks nifty and simple to use which I immediately like. Maybe the quickest and simplest way to share it is email ?

Good hunting

mark

[Lightworker1]

Hello My Dear Friends,

I am very glad we have a lot of successful replications going on so far, now we need to keep making the Electrical and Mechanical Output testing for all this Machines in order to make sure we have very efficient Motors and excellent Generators within one assembly...

Now, please allow me to introduce this excellent Asymmetrical Pattern...here it is displayed on a Five Pole Configuration (the simplest we can deliver), however it could be scaled up to higher poles structures like a Twenty Poles or more...a Ten, even being multiple of five...will not render the "key" pattern, due to Geometrical Symmetries.

[IMG][/IMG]

The Main Electromagnetic Pattern here per Pair of Coils denotes a "Y" Architecture, it is "very Asymmetric", since One Coil is smaller than the second Coil. In this Graphic I have conceived ALL the South Poles to be in the inner smaller Pentagon, while the Norths are ALL located in the Outer Pentagon.

The way to Wind this Motor is a bit "clever" and more complicated than others so far rendered here...and the reason is due to "Space and Areas" not conflicting when expanding into other Layers.

But the "Outcome" of this Pattern is wonderful, it will Generate excellent enhanced results related to all other patterns rendered here so far, Plus We will obtain readings that are "not possible"...so it is very worth the try...

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

2) We need to mark-number each single Armature pole as 1,2,3,4 and 5, as represented in Diagram, this will be our reference to wind the First Layers of South Poles, then We also mark each Spool of Wire in the same fashion, and we are ready to start winding.

3) We start by attaching end of wire (previously stripped off insulation) of our Spool marked #1 to Upper Commutator Element P1 (Outer Commutator on Diagram) , then start winding Pole 1 CCW looking at front of Pole 1 (marked as P1 in Red on Diagram) Now, very important, Try to go as far in, within pole nearest area closer to shaft as possible when winding, in order to leave room for the Second Layer of Norths to be applied later on.

3a- Now, since the Areas of Pairs are NOT Even, We will try to keep a "Balance" as to have more turns in Inner than Outer Coils, but always keeping in mind a Second Layer still will need to be wound. This Number of Turns we adopt in first South Coil 1, will have to keep it for the whole other South Coils. And for those who marked the "Half Way" of wire, this will not be difficult to do at all...

4) So We do ALL our South Coils with our Five Spools, following exactly same winding direction (CCW Looking at front of Pole) til We finish All Five South Coils. This represents All bottom of the "Y" Pattern are finished.

5) Then We proceed to Wind our Outer Layer of Norths, starting by N1 Coil that comprehends the Two Poles completely opposite to Pole 1 , or Upper Portion of the "Y", with our Spool number 1, We turn ALL this North Layers of Coils, with Pole facing Us at CW Direction. So the same fashion when finished the terminal wire of N1, goes exactly to the linearly aligned bottom commutator element of P1 (Inner Commutator on Diagram).

6) We do ALL Five North Coils the same exact direction and Turns using our numbered Spools respectively ordered. N2, N3, N4 and N5...And We are finished.

PLEASE NOTE THIS SET UP HAVE THE BRUSHES ALIGNED EXACTLY PARALLEL TO STATORS BISECTORS OR DEAD CENTER OF THEIR MAGNETIC FIELDS, NOT LIKE THE RADIO SHACK PATTERN WE DID LATELY AND WE HAD TO MODIFY...NOT HERE!

Meaning, considering the "S" of South Pole Stator as 12:00 O'clock, then Brush alignment line runs from 12 to 6, However, to tune for better performance... Brush line could be moved towards 1:00 O'clock until "Firing" N1 right centered between N-S Opening.

I have some working Models of this Magnetic Pattern, one of them is in a Five Pole 550 Body (Bigger than the Radio Shack type), However I will be turning the RS Motor very soon.
The Outcome is excellent as they deliver just in the isolated electrical output more than Input, meaning not jumping the rear terminals...and as always, a very robust torque and speed Machine...
But something very interesting happens here...beyond certain logical and simple explanations...


Regards to All...


Ufopolitics

Hello My Dear Friend UFO, I was working through this video about Part 1 of the Goldmine Y Wind Dual Pentagon Motor, I noticed that you originally specified the following:

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

and my slide for the video is:





But looks like I made a mistake presenting some previous readings, thinking these were the real armature readings.
The keyword that alerted me to my mistake was that this was just the Prototype Exploratory Coil (shown in the picture below),
trying to figure out how much wire possibly could be put on the armature with the Dual Pentagon Y wind asymmetric motor configuration.
Furthermore, this earlier prototype winding was NOT even half way equal between N and S poles, as required by the proposed theory. Sorry about that.





Prototype Exploratory Coil

Wire Gauge #28 AWG and with fresh measurements made

Resistance N Coil (Bigger Coil) 1.9 - 0.6 = 1.3 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Resistance S Coil (Smaller Coil) 1.6 - 0.6 = 1.0 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Eariler on, I had not actually intended to publish this picture as I thought it was not useful.



I also measured the resistance of a 27 ft segment of 28 AWG wire to 1.3-1.4 ohms.
So each of the five coils has resistance of the order of 1.3-1.4 ohms


The motor seems to work OK.
Real data analysis about the performance will be in the part 2 video to follow the part 1.

I looked into some general information so far:

From your video: DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING

DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING - YouTube

In that video, it appears to be radio shack motor with possiblly 30 AWG magnet wire.



Here is a photo of Goldmine Massive Motor (unmodified) and my previous RS Asymmetric Motor.





Now comparing with a different type of Imperial Asymmetric Motor, from

post #6128 from machinealive 01-25-2014, 03:26 PM

Hey kogs

The motors I wound last, had 25 turns of 20.5 ga. I think each coil was like
1 - 1.2 ohms.

Midas it will be interesting to see imperials testing results.
Machine



So UFO, Am I correct on assuming that


"We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs"

was meant for Radio Spare Motor using 30 AWG wire and these Dual Pentagon Motors theoretically can go down to 1.0 - 1.2 ohms, depending on the size and number of poles, for example, 20 poles?



and from post #4171
03-12-2013, 11:56 PM Ufopolitics
...
I had to wind it almost completely twice to get it right. I couldn't get the RS 30ga red wire to fit, even though I shortened it a couple feet from my previous standard winding replication, and I broke a wire due to fatigue as I went for the second layer. No where near 4 ohms. Went to 32ga, fit good, ~12', 2.5ohm. Gave myself more room between the commutator and the rotor, 1/8" total, couldn't reuse my other motor body, hadda make a new one drat


May be, we can generalize the statement to also cover all sizes and poles of Dual Pentagon Motor.

I came back to add more of these thoughts. I hope they are useful.

I will be very appreciative for any suggestions. Many thanks

Once this project is over together with its several very useful facets that needed to be learnt such as Ardunio, Live Data Acquisition and Plotting , I am planning on ALL NORTH IMPERIAL MOTOR as I have said before.
That will be another time.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker

[prochiro]

Mark
No, it is an '.exe' file. I works all by itself. Photobucket will not upload it. The only way I think that I can send it is by regular email as an attachment. I am not sure if UFO has the ability to host the file on his system or not. A private email with your contact information should work.


Dana

[Dfortune]

Sending .exe file are almost always stop and prevented, try to change the extension of the file ,examplerogram.exe to program.exe1 or you might try to compress the file using winrar or another compression program.

Hope it helps

I am following your progress with great interest...

[marxist]

prochiro's program for download

Hi all,
prochiro's program mentioned in his posting #7113 on page 238 of this thread
http://www.energeticforum.com/265639-post7113.html
can be downloaded as a zipped file from:
http://www.rivertreestar.net/asymmetric/HP&E.zip

[sampojo]

Pentagon Y vs unipolar style

Hello My Dear Friend UFO, I was working through this video about Part 1 of the Goldmine Y Wind Dual Pentagon Motor, I noticed that you originally specified the following:

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

and my slide for the video is:





But looks like I made a mistake presenting some previous readings, thinking these were the real armature readings.
The keyword that alerted me to my mistake was that this was just the Prototype Exploratory Coil (shown in the picture below),
trying to figure out how much wire possibly could be put on the armature with the Dual Pentagon Y wind asymmetric motor configuration.
Furthermore, this earlier prototype winding was NOT even half way equal between N and S poles, as required by the proposed theory. Sorry about that.





Prototype Exploratory Coil

Wire Gauge #28 AWG and with fresh measurements made

Resistance N Coil (Bigger Coil) 1.9 - 0.6 = 1.3 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Resistance S Coil (Smaller Coil) 1.6 - 0.6 = 1.0 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Eariler on, I had not actually intended to publish this picture as I thought it was not useful.



I also measured the resistance of a 27 ft segment of 28 AWG wire to 1.3-1.4 ohms.
So each of the five coils has resistance of the order of 1.3-1.4 ohms


The motor seems to work OK.
Real data analysis about the performance will be in the part 2 video to follow the part 1.

I looked into some general information so far:

From your video: DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING

DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING - YouTube

In that video, it appears to be radio shack motor with possiblly 30 AWG magnet wire.



Here is a photo of Goldmine Massive Motor (unmodified) and my previous RS Asymmetric Motor.





Now comparing with a different type of Imperial Asymmetric Motor, from

post #6128 from machinealive 01-25-2014, 03:26 PM

Hey kogs

The motors I wound last, had 25 turns of 20.5 ga. I think each coil was like
1 - 1.2 ohms.

Midas it will be interesting to see imperials testing results.
Machine



So UFO, Am I correct on assuming that


"We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs"

was meant for Radio Spare Motor using 30 AWG wire and these Dual Pentagon Motors theoretically can go down to 1.0 - 1.2 ohms, depending on the size and number of poles, for example, 20 poles?



and from post #4171
03-12-2013, 11:56 PM Ufopolitics
...
I had to wind it almost completely twice to get it right. I couldn't get the RS 30ga red wire to fit, even though I shortened it a couple feet from my previous standard winding replication, and I broke a wire due to fatigue as I went for the second layer. No where near 4 ohms. Went to 32ga, fit good, ~12', 2.5ohm. Gave myself more room between the commutator and the rotor, 1/8" total, couldn't reuse my other motor body, hadda make a new one drat


May be, we can generalize the statement to also cover all sizes and poles of Dual Pentagon Motor.

I came back to add more of these thoughts. I hope they are useful.

I will be very appreciative for any suggestions. Many thanks

Once this project is over together with its several very useful facets that needed to be learnt such as Ardunio, Live Data Acquisition and Plotting , I am planning on ALL NORTH IMPERIAL MOTOR as I have said before.
That will be another time.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker

Hi lightworker!

I have done 2 motors of this UFO pentagon Y wiring, one on a dual stator 5 pole and one on a Quad stator 10 pole. This style is noted for having to dangle spools of wires because you have to do 1/2 coil at a time and winding them sequentially. If I remember right I had up to 5 spools dangling (at least on the 10 pole motor) as I overlapped the wiring for each pole. Looking at your pictures I see you seem to have wound both N and S poles at one time for one coil. I went over the winding pretty well and posted some video on the Quad 10-pole that shows the process. Winding one complete coil in one step on the Y Pentagon styles will leave a big air gap in the 2-pole portion of the Y, losing the ability to pack the rotor with copper wire. This is the cause for you having to shorten your amount of wire and will cause power loss and higher amp draw problems.

Although the pentagon Y style may be the most powerful of Ufo's N-S windings (and the most difficult to wind), the Radio Shack cores of this style got about 26000 rpm max, while the unipolar got 44000 rpm in Ufo's videos. Not sure if it was on 9 or 12 volts. Either way, unipolar N-N windings look more powerful and are easier to do.