Transformer Core of Capacitor plates

[madhatter]

Interesting. This reminds me of something I noticed, I think watching some TV documentary on something relating to religion/churches/cathedrals and being cynical of all the "innocent" religious/masonic symbolism and all that propaganda type stuff, they showed a pattern on a floor which I thought through reason of my views on the use of symbolism might make an interesting coil. After some google image search and narrowing it down to the terms "Notre Dame floor" or "Labyrinth Notre Dame":

That is interesting, the design was purely organic to try and work with the magnetic field as best as possible, however now I really question if there is a magnetic field there at all.

[Bob Smith]

Madhatter,
I couldn't help but notice some similarities with Bruce's TPU windings over on the OU forums. It's been a while since I've watched them, but it seems to me that his YT construction videos show he's doing on a toroid what you're doing on a flat surface. I might be wrong, but thought I'd pass it along.
Regards,
Bob

Edit: In addition, would the magnetic flux in your pattern not be basically cancelling itself out with the back and forth winding? I am struck by the similarities to what goes on in the Tesla series wound bifi pancake coil, which, because of its winding pattern, has a large capacitance. If your back and forth windings are cancelling out your transverse EM waves (as in Tesla bifi series pancake coil), then your windings are producing predominantly longitudinal EM (scalar) waves. So, it would seem to me you have
- largely cancelled magnetic flux (via doubling back pattern)
- increased capacitance
- predominantly scalar wave production
Any comments?
B

[madhatter]

Madhatter,
I couldn't help but notice some similarities with Bruce's TPU windings over on the OU forums. It's been a while since I've watched them, but it seems to me that his YT construction videos show he's doing on a toroid what you're doing on a flat surface. I might be wrong, but thought I'd pass it along.
Regards,
Bob

Edit: In addition, would the magnetic flux in your pattern not be basically cancelling itself out with the back and forth winding? I am struck by the similarities to what goes on in the Tesla series wound bifi pancake coil, which, because of its winding pattern, has a large capacitance. If your back and forth windings are cancelling out your transverse EM waves (as in Tesla bifi series pancake coil), then your windings are producing predominantly longitudinal EM (scalar) waves. So, it would seem to me you have
- largely cancelled magnetic flux (via doubling back pattern)
- increased capacitance
- predominantly scalar wave production
Any comments?
B

I will have to look into Bruce's TPU windings, not familiar with them.

That's a very good question, I was chatting with a friend last night who's a radio transmission engineer and he found this interesting as well. capacitive antennae's would directly be affected by this.

it raises the question on self propagating B&E fields. the B field is assumed to be in a circular pattern with a complex flux density curve, the equations used to derive this can give conflicting results. The winding pattern was done to try and transversely cut that field at 90* as best as possible. Here's the problem, it's becoming apparent it's not the 'coil' but the mass of the wire in the field, a flat plate would be just as effective but then it's a 'capacitive' charge and not an inductive charge.

So now it's back to is there really a circular rotating B field in between the capacitor plates? I have some pancake coils I'll be trying next and if the results are similar then it really raises a lot of questions on charge and induction.

[Bob Smith]

Here's the link to Bruce's video on winding his TPU. You can see how he winds it, and at 5:30 onward, he explains basically what I said about the back and forth wires cancelling one another's flux:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-iP...feature=fvwrel
I don't think he's got this TPU design actually working yet, but I think the theory behind the windings is worth taking into consideration.

You can find a fair bit online about the link between scalar waves and bifilar series wound Tesla coils. There's a classic diagram from Tesla's pancake coil patent that you've probably seen many times. E.g., Here (figure on the right):
Tesla Bifilar Coil patent - Bedini Bifilar Coil usage in Schoolgirl Radiant Motor Charging devices | MERLib.org
A few sites will explain the pancake coil's transverse wave-cancelling effect of the series bifi windings and its scalar (Longitudinal) wave production.
Looking forward to seeing your results.
Bob

[madhatter]

Ok I'm now officially confused.....

I made a quick flat spiral pancake coil, not bifilar nothing fancy. Single lead out to full diode bridge. 60.8VDC.

some notes:
charge time for capacitor 1.5uF 250V, charge to 52vdc
no resistor: 30sec avg
50 ohm R: 31 sec avg
1.98k ohm R: 25 sec avg, peak voltage 53vdc
98.5k ohm R: 23 sec avg, peak voltage 55vdc
1M ohm R: 20 sec avg, peak voltage 59vdc

Anyone have any clue as to how a spiral coil parallel to the supposed B-field is to induce the charge of the E-field?

scope shots and coil pic.



This is the measurement at the bare lead of the 'star' periodic coil

dial settings, unchanged between either coil

This is the spiral coil at the bare lead

[Bob Smith]

If you put "flat spiral pancake coil" into a search engine, you'll find out more about the properties of this kind of coil you're using. It behaves differently from the bifilar wound, for obvious reasons. There flat spiral coil inductance calculators online. FWIW, here's an interesting comparison of the 2 types:
Comparison of Tesla Bifilar and Pancake Coils | Tesla News
B

[madhatter]

If you put "flat spiral pancake coil" into a search engine, you'll find out more about the properties of this kind of coil you're using. It behaves differently from the bifilar wound, for obvious reasons. There flat spiral coil inductance calculators online. FWIW, here's an interesting comparison of the 2 types:
Comparison of Tesla Bifilar and Pancake Coils | Tesla News
B

My use of the spiral coil was simply to put the windings in parallel with the supposed B field, if there was a circular magnetic field that was responsible for the inductance then the resulting voltage should have been naught, but it's not.

From more testing it's the charge field, now how that 'translates' into current...

I decided to plug directly into 120VAC from the mains, as expected the voltage and current go up. trying to read any amperage draw off the main feed to the plates results in zero measurement, even when charging MFD caps.

So I had an idea and put a large capacitor on the neutral leg to the cap and put the meter in series and read the voltage between the capactor and the neutral.

with no load on the coil the voltage is roughly 5vac, loading the coil with a charging a cap the meter will jump to 20vac and slowly drop to the original 5vac.

So a load on the coil seems to impart an instant voltage on the capacitor that draws down, the question is from where? even with that setup and trying to read an amp draw between the cap and lead it's still naught.

I really didn't expect to find such fascinating results.

[Bob Smith]

So a load on the coil seems to impart an instant voltage on the capacitor that draws down, the question is from where? even with that setup and trying to read an amp draw between the cap and lead it's still naught.

If I understand your config right, you're dumping from one cap into the coil, and into another. If your coil is producing scalar (longitudinal) waves, it will go into the 2nd cap as radiant energy. I don't believe scalar energy can be measured with a volt meter. If this is indeed the case, then your meter reading is going to be different from the voltage actually showing up in the second cap as RE.
My take anyway.
Bob

[madhatter]

here's a quick and dirty drawing of the schematic layout. the charge between the cap from the neutral vac line and the capacitor plate is where the instant voltage shows when a load such as charging a cap off the coil and diode bridge. the voltage spike is interesting as it's FAST, faster than the micro second ability of the scope. then it matches pace with the charge rate of the load till it drops to it's initial value and stays, even though say for a example a large cap is being charged and will take longer as it's final voltage will be easily 3 times that of the measured voltage.

The interesting thing is that there is zero amperage draw reading. anywhere in the circuit, even when charging a cap.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[jake]

here's a quick and dirty drawing of the schematic layout. the charge between the cap from the neutral vac line and the capacitor plate is where the instant voltage shows when a load such as charging a cap off the coil and diode bridge. the voltage spike is interesting as it's FAST, faster than the micro second ability of the scope. then it matches pace with the charge rate of the load till it drops to it's initial value and stays, even though say for a example a large cap is being charged and will take longer as it's final voltage will be easily 3 times that of the measured voltage.

The interesting thing is that there is zero amperage draw reading. anywhere in the circuit, even when charging a cap.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Finally a schematic. Woo hoo. ....
Very intresting indeed.
I need to do this. Keep it going.

[Bob Smith]

I tried to replicate your experiment with what I had.
- 9v battery
- Digital multimeter
- Series wound bifilar pancake coil (single strand telephone wire)
- Two 4" x 4" x 1/8" plates
- Two small electrolytic caps (4.7uf 50V)
- One leg of second cap to ground (tried both)
- Did not use rectifier

I wish I had a hand held scope to see what was going on (did this on deck outside so I could connect to a ground rod).

Voltage readings changed for the better when I lifted top plate about 1/8" from the coil. Not sure what this means. I also had the impression that I was drawing voltage out of the ground. My readings didn't go any higher than 9.5V. They were actually lower across the coil. I just don't know if there was more going on that I couldn't measure with the DMM.
Bob

[madhatter]

I tried to replicate your experiment with what I had.
- 9v battery
- Digital multimeter
- Series wound bifilar pancake coil (single strand telephone wire)
- Two 4" x 4" x 1/8" plates
- Two small electrolytic caps (4.7uf 50V)
- One leg of second cap to ground (tried both)
- Did not use rectifier

I wish I had a hand held scope to see what was going on (did this on deck outside so I could connect to a ground rod).

Voltage readings changed for the better when I lifted top plate about 1/8" from the coil. Not sure what this means. I also had the impression that I was drawing voltage out of the ground. My readings didn't go any higher than 9.5V. They were actually lower across the coil. I just don't know if there was more going on that I couldn't measure with the DMM.
Bob

The real fun starts if you use AC power. I don't have a pulse setup running yet, ideally a pulsed tube or electrostatic source would be best.

I've come to the conclusion that this really exemplifies that there is no current in the wires or a propagating B field. As Heaviside said "Now in Maxwell's theory there is the potential energy of the displacement produced in the dielectric parts by the electric force, and there is the kinetic or magnetic energy of the magnetic induction due to the magnetic force in all parts of the field, including the conducting parts. They are supposed to be set up by the current in the wire. We reverse this; the current in the wire is set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it...."

[Bob Smith]

That's interesting about using AC. I actually pulled out a relay switch and wired it backwards so that it would self-oscillate, and pulsed DC thru the setup. Very interesting, and a little baffling, because I didn't really get decent voltage readings like I was expecting. ... Then tried pulsing a few different configurations until I was totally on to something else. I just didn't think it was worth mentioning.

I'll need to scope it to see what was happening. I know that the bifilar pancake coil will produce scalar (longitudinal) waves. I don't know about the single strand spiral pancake coil. You'll get more current out of that one, I think, and less out of the bifi because of the cancelled magnetic flux. Again, I need to scope it, because I really don't understand what was happening. If you have another identical bifi pancake coil, it should be able to pick up the energy from the first, and you can set up as many identical coils to draw power by scalar induction as needed, without losses - that's the theory I'm told, anyway. I think this is what Tesla's magnifying transmitter and wireless electricity was all about. Very a propos choice of quote....

Do you think you were pulling in electrons from the ground to get your voltage spike? (ie., via the ground off your diode bridge?) Do you think it's possible that if this is the case, the 3 plate capacitor with an AV plug to ground from Zilano's schematic in the Don Smith's Devices thread might increase your voltage? (that is, if you're looking for RE in your system).
- Just a thought.
Bob

[jake]

We reverse this; the current in the wire is set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it...."

I have 30m of 1/4" copper tape. I have been Looking for a reason to make it a pancake. If I was going to try this do you think I should make it bifilar or not?


Also have you tried AC across the coil wth the scope across the plates?

[madhatter]

I have 30m of 1/4" copper tape. I have been Looking for a reason to make it a pancake. If I was going to try this do you think I should make it bifilar or not?


Also have you tried AC across the coil wth the scope across the plates?

the scope I'm currently borrowing only has one probe, this makes it a bit difficult to measure multiple wave forms.

Not sure on the bifilar or not, I'm at the understanding at this point that the magnetic field is only a result of the geometry. I'm after not trying to induce the TEM wave.

I'm working on a new set of calcs to take into account the time varying Psi field of flux and it's interaction with the 'directors' or wires.