Proof that HHO is a Scam - Aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml

[stevie1001]

You didn't read the Alchemy Through Vernon Roth's Alchemical Hydrogen Cells. When large mining companies start panicking as young, urban EF hacks begin selling gold-crusted electrodes on a daily basis, it'll be MJ Nunnerly and 'the Roth child' who'll be laughing all the way to their newly formed bank.

You are right that i didnt read that book yet.
Please explain it to me. Dont hold back.
I never seen any gold on my electrodes, so i am doing something wrong, it seems.....

[wings]

related to cold plasma reforming

Plasma Fuel Reforming :: Ceramatec

PLASMATRON Systems - WATER as FUEL - review of available technologies - M.D.G. 2006

[stevie1001]

PLASMATRON Systems - WATER as FUEL - review of available technologies - M.D.G. 2006

82% efficiency till 98%......

[tutanka]

Here is a link to the photo

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Mike

And what is the new? In my reactor I can reach 1200°C using chemical plasma and not electric plasma. I can dissociate also CO2 creating a lot of CO.

[Ein~+ein]

@Stevie: Here's the link for Vernon Roth's Alchemicla Hyrdogen Cells

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Ruggero Santilli has been nominated for a Nobel Prize

... but not for his controversial 'magnecular' theory:

Magnecules have also been invoked as an explanation for a purported "HHO gas", which Santilli claims is "a new form of water" produced by electrolysis.[14][17] The name comes from the supposed chemical structure (H × H)–O, where “×” represents a "magnecular bond" and “−” a conventional molecular bond. This has subsequently been adopted by water-fueled car scams and pseudoscience involving electrolysis machines and water torches.[18] It is claimed that these devices produce HHO gas, with a number of unique properties, instead of the usual oxyhydrogen gas, which is simply a mixture of diatomic hydrogen and oxygen gases.

In 2006, Brown University Professor of Engineering Joseph M. Calo wrote in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy that Santilli's article had "many serious misinterpretations, and misunderstandings of the 'data' presented", provided "absolutely no scientific evidence" to support HHO gas's existence and he described Santilli's Magnecules as “pseudo-science as well".[17] Two scientists, Martin Cloonan[19] and J. V. Kadeisvili[20] have published replies to Calo's article, in support of Santilli's "HHO Gas" theory.

And for those wondering about the 'plasmatron:

The “plasmatron” was invented in Russia in the 1970’s. The inventor, Rabinovich, was able to find a job at MIT and, when H2 generation/fuel conversion/NOx removal was at a rage, worked w/Cohn & Bromberg at MIT on a plasmatron for fuel conversion and generating H2 reductant for NOx removel. Arvin Meritor became an industrial backer of the device, hoping to find a large market for it. People wonder ‘What ever became of the MIT/Arvin Meritor plasmatron?’ – it seemed to work so well. No conspiracy here: the device did work well for short periods of time; however, for reasonable operating times required of industrial/automotive devices, the MIT plasmatron made bunches and bunches of soot – very undesirable to inject into an engine or a NOx-removal system. Discovering this, Arvin Meritor promptly dumped MIT and withdrew funds for subsequent work.
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Although in principle the device could process all of the fuel for a vehicle, the researchers say that it's most cost-effective to convert only a fraction of the fuel into hydrogen-rich gas. That's because even though such gas increases the efficiency of an engine, the plasmatron itself consumes energy. The best results in the recent tests were achieved by converting 25 percent of the gasoline into hydrogen-rich gas.

@Jetijs: Now I understand what you meant when you said it was all about the (fuel) economy. These guys obviously didn't search for, or find that sweet spot.

[wings]

The Ohio University scientists who developed the urine technology found that attaching hydrogen to nitrogen in urine allowed it to be stored without the strict requirements of ordinary hydrogen, and allowed it to be released with less electricity (0.037 volts versus 1.23 volts needed for water).

Your Car and Home Could Soon Be Powered By Urine

[wings]

The Ohio University scientists who developed the urine technology found that attaching hydrogen to nitrogen in urine allowed it to be stored without the strict requirements of ordinary hydrogen, and allowed it to be released with less electricity (0.037 volts versus 1.23 volts needed for water).

Your Car and Home Could Soon Be Powered By Urine

test on youtube

Hydrogen from Urine (fire from pee) - YouTube

[Ein~+ein]

The Ohio University scientists who developed the urine technology found that attaching hydrogen to nitrogen in urine allowed it to be stored without the strict requirements of ordinary hydrogen, and allowed it to be released with less electricity (0.037 volts versus 1.23 volts needed for water).

Your Car and Home Could Soon Be Powered By Urine

You'll find a link to a more recent news article and one to Prof. Botte's commercial venture here on this post.

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Unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary, I for one am inclined to accept the 'HHO scam' claim. One such 'HHO Research Site' claims:

With most diesel and petrol fueled vehicles, about 65-75% of fuel is wasted and goes out the exhaust port to be burnt up by the catalytic converter to try and stop pollution.

What is new is that we can now separate the gases in high volumes with much less current than was possible a few years ago because of modern electronics and the availability of exotic metals and other materials to construct the Hydrogen - Oxygen Generation Cells that make them more practical for use.

I don't know about the rest of you. On the one hand I find it reprehensible that such websites/individuals get away with this, but on the other, anyone who's dumb enough to fall for this deserves the lesson (hopefully learned).

[Michael John Nunnerley]

and what does that show?
Promises.
Oh, you forgot to tell that the MIB are hunting you down and forgot to mention some bible texts....

Scam, till proven otherwise.

IF you don't know what that shows, then you should keep quiet and learn something before opening your mouth, this is why I very rarly post anything any more. And what is all the bible text, I'm a believer in science not religous nuts who have caused just about every war that has been "my view", sorry if I offend anyone, all have a right to believe in what or who they want, and as far as MIB's you wouldn't even know one if you saw one and thats not to say if I would unless they introduced themselves

The colouring shows that double AND triple chemical bonds were broken and remade WITH VERY LITTLE ENERGY, "a transformation took place". What was produced at the end in this is of my concern and not yours. If I post something it is fact and tested, I gain nothing from you, my work is my living, or do you want that as well? I sell no books or videos but I do sell to companies who WILL use the end product which will be of benifit to mankind.

The next time you buy a computer or a mobile phone or the future generation of hydrogen battery cell etc etc you just might have put some money in my pocket

best of luck learning, I'm gone

Mike

[Ein~+ein]

Hi All

Well Jetis is totally right, but there are also more things that go on that can't be seen....

Do you mean 'totally right' from an economic standpoint--HHO as a fuel additive can do more than just provide a cleaner burn? I'm not convinced, especially given the controversial (at best) evidence others have provided in support of Jetijs's assertion. Or do you mean that HHO is best suited to applications other than as a gas addititve?

[stevie1001]

IF you don't know what that shows, then you should keep quiet and learn something before opening your mouth, this is why I very rarly post anything any more. And what is all the bible text, I'm a believer in science not religous nuts who have caused just about every war that has been "my view", sorry if I offend anyone, all have a right to believe in what or who they want, and as far as MIB's you wouldn't even know one if you saw one and thats not to say if I would unless they introduced themselves

The colouring shows that double AND triple chemical bonds were broken and remade WITH VERY LITTLE ENERGY, "a transformation took place". What was produced at the end in this is of my concern and not yours. If I post something it is fact and tested, I gain nothing from you, my work is my living, or do you want that as well? I sell no books or videos but I do sell to companies who WILL use the end product which will be of benifit to mankind.

The next time you buy a computer or a mobile phone or the future generation of hydrogen battery cell etc etc you just might have put some money in my pocket

best of luck learning, I'm gone

Mike

And this is exact the problem with Mike.
Lots of talk. Not any scientific prove whats so ever.
So why did you ever come here to this forum? Share all your knowledge with us?????
Some testing papers? Prove of technology tests done by independent testers? Building papers? Schematics? Nothing seen here, Mike.
So, no loss if you leave here. Don't waist my and others time.
If you would come out with some of above mentioned information and you have really something that works, then of course all the credits for you.
Till then, dont ask us to praise almighty Mike.

Peace to all builders and info sharing members.

[Ein~+ein]

I saw a post here earlier today referring to a gov't doc but is it just me that can't access it? Here's a reference to what it says:

In November 2007, the U.S. Department of Transportation published a 94-page report titled, "Guidelines for use of hydrogen fuel in commercial vehicles final report," that was targeted toward safety issues surrounding handling hydrogen. The report also focuses on diesel trucks more than gasoline-powered cars and covers hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, internal combustion vehicles and hydrogen-on-demand technology.

Here are some excerpts from the document:

"Today, virtually all commercial trucks are powered by diesel fuel, while private cars are fueled by gasoline. Supported by our National Energy Policy, a new generation of technologies is currently being developed that allow the use of hydrogen as a fuel to power cars and trucks. In the future, hydrogen may be used in one of three ways to power vehicles:

. To produce electricity in a fuel cell

. As a replacement for gasoline or diesel fuel used in an internal combustion engine

. As a supplement to gasoline or diesel fuel used in an internal combustion engine

"Several fuel cell buses have been demonstrated that reform, or extract hydrogen from, liquid methanol onboard (Georgetown University, 2003), and there are fuel cell APU systems under development that will derive their hydrogen from onboard reforming of diesel fuel or gasoline (Delphi, 2005). In addition, there are several commercial hydrogen injection systems available for retrofit on diesel engines (CHEC, n.d.). These systems produce small amounts of hydrogen by electrolysis of water carried on the vehicle, which is injected into the diesel engine along with the diesel fuel.

"A hydrogen injection system for a diesel engine produces small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen on demand by electrolyzing water carried onboard the vehicle. The electricity required is supplied by the engine's alternator or 12/24-volt electrical system (see Section 1.5 for a description of electrolysis). The hydrogen and oxygen are injected into the engine's air intake manifold, where they mix with the intake air. In theory, the combustion properties of the hydrogen result in more complete combustion of diesel fuel in the engine, reducing tailpipe emissions and improving fuel economy (CHEC, n.d.).

"A hydrogen injection system for a diesel engine produces and uses significantly less hydrogen than a hydrogen fuel cell or hydrogen ICE, and does not require that compressed or liquid hydrogen be carried on the vehicle. The system is designed to produce hydrogen only when required, in response to driver throttle commands. When the system is shut off, no hydrogen is present on the vehicle."

Anyone know whether this tech is standard on commercial (diesel) vehicles yet, or at least in the R&D stage? Keep in mind that report is now 6 yrs old. The 4% I saw quoted in that post would be a significant annual cost saving for long-haul trucking operators or bus lines where fuel is by far the largest expense. If a rig's driver could simply unroll a 'solar blanket' over the top of their trailer, how much more efficient could such a system be? Seems there's real potential here.

Even Wikipedia's: Hydrogen Fuel Enhancement page supports the claim:

There has been a great deal of research into fuel mixtures, such as gasoline and nitrous oxide injection. Mixtures of hydrogen and hydrocarbons are no exception.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] These sources say that contamination from exhaust gases has been reduced in all cases, and they suggest that a small efficiency increases is sometimes possible.

...while cautioning:

To date, hydrogen fuel enhancement products have not been specifically addressed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency, as no research devices or commercial products have reports available as per the "Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program."[10] They do, however, point out that installation of such devices often involves illegally tampering with an automobile's emissions control system, which could result in significant fines.[11] Environment Canada does have a research paper on the subject. In tests done in their laboratory in 2004 they found no improvement in engine efficiency or fuel economy.[12]

...and adding:

Hydrogen fuel enhancement from electrolysis (utilizing automotive alternators) has been promoted for use with gasoline-powered and diesel trucks,[13][14][15] although electrolysis-based designs have repeatedly failed efficiency tests and contradict widely accepted laws of thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy). Proponents, who sell the units (often called "HHO devices"), claim that the dynamics are often misconstrued, and due to the chemical properties of the resulting mixture, it is possible to gain efficiency increases in a manner that does not violate any scientific laws. Many tests by consumer watch groups have shown negative results. This technique may seem appealing to some at first because it is easy to overlook energy losses in the system as a whole. Those unfamiliar with electrodynamics may not realize that the electrolytic cell drains current from a car's electrical system causing an increase in mechanical resistance in the alternator that will always result in a net power reduction.[16][17][18] [19] Since it requires more energy to separate hydrogen from oxygen than would be gained from burning the hydrogen produced in this method, the concept of such a device is often stated to be in direct violation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.[20][21][22][23][24][25] Monetary prizes have been offered to sellers or promoters of these devices to demonstrate their claims of increased fuel economy are true (see US$1,000 Water Car Challenge), with very few sellers taking the challenges and no device passing the challenges.

WHAT?!?!? '...very few sellers taking the challenge?' Should we start a new thread with links to these prize(s)? While the $1,000 is peanuts, the value might be in the PR depending on who's running the competition(s).

[Jeff Pearson]

I got an increase of 3MPG with a booster. Ozzy Freedoms cell. The exhaust was the most impressive part of the setup; Cleaned it right up.

[Ein~+ein]

I got an increase of 3MPG with a booster. Ozzy Freedoms cell. The exhaust was the most impressive part of the setup; Cleaned it right up.

Strange! One would think with all the bad press they're getting, it's a scam:
> Ozzie Freedom Charged with Fraud by State of Texas
> Water 4 Gas "Ozzie Freedom" charged with FRAUD in Texas
> (Texas) AG Charges California-Based Business With Fraud In Water-To-Fuel Scheme
> AG Charges California-Based Business With Fraud In Water-To-Fuel Scheme
> Run Your Car On Water" Scheme Could Leave Consumers All Wet
> Texas Sues Water4gas.com
> Is using Water for Fuel / Water4Gas a Hoax?
> Texas AG Cruelly Informs Us Water Can't Be Turned Into Gas

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A Question for 'Water Car' True Believers from a tree hugger

But there's a question we'd like to ask those who are so certain that 'water cars' (with water as the only fuel, and not as an energy carrier via hydrogen) already work and are somehow kept hidden: If some people had that technology, why would cars be the first thing they try to make? That's hard, with huge supply chains and massive capital investments, lots of regulations and red tape, etc. Why not make power plants right next to rivers (or just use tap water) and sell the power? They could start very small (less than 1 megawatt) to show that it works. That would be much more profitable, no? Or even sell the technology to makers of portable electronics, which don't have vested interests in oil and cars.

So why aren't we hearing about 'water power plants' (other than hydro), or 'water powered laptops'? It's always 'water cars', and mostly when gas prices are up. Could it be that it's just a really nice story that strikes the imagination (the image of pouring water in a fuel tank is powerful), the way many urban legends do?

[Jeff Pearson]

Yeah, its nots even a very good cell, but the little bit of HHO or whatever was effective, not very but effective. I later self destructed 4 cells forcing enough power through them to just barley run the engine on HHO mixed with ambient air drawn through the cells. Even that didn't blow the 10 amp fuse to the cells so its way less power than what the alternator can supply with a crappy inefficient cell!!!!!!