Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[minoly]

Thanks Vissey.

Patrick,

I think I will have to get a video camera soon! Any one want to trade a video camera for a 3-pole kit fully assembled and a NS window motor kit also fully assembled?

I've attached a pdf showing the circuit using a Magnecraft 6312XXMDS-DC3 but as I note on the schematic almost any DC load SSR will work. You just need to get the polarity hooked up right. I've tried 2 different SSR's and they both work great and it also works with IRFP260 FET's. It does work just the way John B says but I think you'll be surprised when you hook it up and start looking for large increments of cap dump voltage. I won't spoil it for you right now you'll just have to give it a try. When will your wheel be completed? Its going to be awesome.

Yes, I think we should be > 1:1 with just the monopole coils, thats been proven many times. I have several issues with my wheel not the least being my coils are undersized (to little impedance is not good) so, I will be working to improve its performance.

After looking at the Ferris Wheel technical information DVD about 10 times over the weekend, I've come to realize the important role the re-gauging motor plays when the monopole is running. It provides a load on the shaft to keep the monopole from running wild (huge torque) and at the same time its also putting additional energy into the cap so we can get 2:1 performance or better. One can detune the monopole to run without a load but I'm going for as much charging as possible so it looks like I'll be building a re-gauging motor in the near future.

Ron

When I hook up my K08A's that way, they just cascade over - no build up then dump - only energy over like a waterfall Of course I did it both ways right out of the box, even tried it on the input - no go for mine.
I'm glad yours work.
Patrick

[Ron Chase]

Ssr

Patrick,

Yes the SSR is Mouser Part# 528-6312AXXMDS-DC3 and also available from Allied.

Ron

[Ron Chase]

When I hook up my K08A's that way, they just cascade over - no build up then dump - only energy over like a waterfall Of course I did it both ways right out of the box, even tried it on the input - no go for mine.
I'm glad yours work.
Patrick

Patrick, it sounds like your K08A is working just not the way you think it should. Here is part of an email I Brent:

"Brent,

Here it is. Because of all the talk over the years about large spikes hitting the negative pole of the battery, I’ve been thinking that if I don’t see a big spike or voltage change at the capacitor then it’s not working. In reality there are big spikes going into the cap but they are absorbed by the cap and then transferred to the battery through the SSR and only show up as pulses of current flow through the analog meter. The charging is there but if you look at the cap dump voltage you will only see very small increments of change at each trigger. Just tweak your machine to get as high a current pulse at the meter and it will charge fine."

Patrick, what I found with my NE2 cap dump circuit was that the circuit was dumping at 70-75V down to about 60V and disappating lots of heat through the FETS. But it only charged slightly better than the simple SSR circuit, just wasted a lot of energy as heat. Your analogy of the water cascading is good but apparently thats all it takes with the larger Ferris Wheels. JB did say to build big!

I know its not what we expected but nevertheless it works. Maybe it just works better on the big wheels.

Ron

[Les_K]

Patrick, it sounds like your K08A is working just not the way you think it should. Here is part of an email I Brent:

"Brent,

Here it is. Because of all the talk over the years about large spikes hitting the negative pole of the battery, I’ve been thinking that if I don’t see a big spike or voltage change at the capacitor then it’s not working. In reality there are big spikes going into the cap but they are absorbed by the cap and then transferred to the battery through the SSR and only show up as pulses of current flow through the analog meter. The charging is there but if you look at the cap dump voltage you will only see very small increments of change at each trigger. Just tweak your machine to get as high a current pulse at the meter and it will charge fine."

Patrick, what I found with my NE2 cap dump circuit was that the circuit was dumping at 70-75V down to about 60V and disappating lots of heat through the FETS. But it only charged slightly better than the simple SSR circuit, just wasted a lot of energy as heat. Your analogy of the water cascading is good but apparently thats all it takes with the larger Ferris Wheels. JB did say to build big!

I know its not what we expected but nevertheless it works. Maybe it just works better on the big wheels.

Ron

Just a note,
I was using 22AH batteries on my larger wheel and was seeing a lot of those problems as well. I got some deep cycle batts rated at 25 amps 1.6hr. Never knew such a thing existed, but I put those big ol' things (Heavy!) on there and I am seeing a whole different machine.
I suspect that my other batteries just could not handle the spike. I have no way to measure the current dump but my guess is that I was way exceeding what the batteries could handle on the charge side.

Anyway just a hunch but that may have something to do with the ssr not working properly.
The batteries go funny after a while and the SSR has to have something on the backend.

I don't have any idea of a COP at present just started a couple days ago. Big improvement but more like in the 90% efficient range.

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.

Les

[Ron Chase]

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.


Les,

When I changed to larger batteries I also saw an improvement and eventually I want to work up to the Trojan L16's I got awhile back. They have thousands of amp hours of capacity and probably will take forever to charge but it will represent one end of a trend I'm seeing with my machine of positively reacting to progressively larger battery capacity.

Definitely keep me posted on your axle generator idea's as that's where I think we need to go to maximize our machines outputs.

Ron

[minoly]

Ron, I have been experimenting with something I don't have a good handle on it yet but I can see something new in using super poles for the axle generator. I have some testing to do but something for you to think about. It all relates to things JB has said and ED, and Howard Johnson.
I don't understand some aspects of magnetic gates. They are described as different things. at different times as far as I can see. anyway just something to be thinking of.


Les,

When I changed to larger batteries I also saw an improvement and eventually I want to work up to the Trojan L16's I got awhile back. They have thousands of amp hours of capacity and probably will take forever to charge but it will represent one end of a trend I'm seeing with my machine of positively reacting to progressively larger battery capacity.

Definitely keep me posted on your axle generator idea's as that's where I think we need to go to maximize our machines outputs.

Ron

just for the record, I have a bank of 6 T105's 225Ah each, in 12 volt arrangement for a total of 675Ah.
I also have 2 L16-H's that are 395Ah.

I concur that this energy likes to have large good quality low impedance on the back.
my SSR behaves the same however, if I have it hooked up to 3Ah SLAB or the large bank - the SSR does not care. the energy does care.

I never realized how much until Tom at BM2 asked me to connect it up on one of my better chargers. the energizers charging ability improved dramatically.

Patrick

[minoly]

just for the record, I have a bank of 6 T105's 225Ah each, in 12 volt arrangement for a total of 675Ah.
I also have 2 L16-H's that are 395Ah.

I concur that this energy likes to have large good quality low impedance on the back.
my SSR behaves the same however, if I have it hooked up to 3Ah SLAB or the large bank - the SSR does not care. the energy does care.

I never realized how much until Tom at BM2 asked me to connect it up on one of my better chargers. the energizers charging ability improved dramatically.

Patrick

I should also note that I do not have the large coils in place - too many distractions. so your thinking that a larger radiant source will make the SSR behave more Like John's could still be correct.

[Ron Chase]

I should also note that I do not have the large coils in place - too many distractions. so your thinking that a larger radiant source will make the SSR behave more Like John's could still be correct.

Patrick,

Thank you for your last two posts. Good insights and observations.

To me the FET inside the SSR is just a conduit through which the radiant energy (RE) flows. It doesn't have to dramatically switch large potential differences, it just allows the pulses of RE coming through to pass on to the charge battery. The more RE you put in the faster the charging.

I used to think that the higher the cap voltage the better the dump and charging effect but this doesn't seem to be so in these cap dump circuits. Its the RE flowing into the charge battery. In fact if you monitor the cap voltage of a big wheel SSR cap dump circuit while charging you will notice a gradual rise of voltage as the battery is charging up. This is just because the impedence of the battery is increasing as it charges which slows the flow of RE into the battery so more begins to accumulate in the cap giving rise to higher stored potential we measure as voltage. Its not about voltage its about RE flow and thats why we thought the SSR's didn't work.

As far as the dump voltage goes it seems to me its more of a slowly rising level determined by the size of the coils and the capacitor and amount and rate of RE flow which is regulated by the state of the charge battery.

JB said his cap dumped at around 48V. That may be a nominal reading of cap voltage over the entire charge cycle of his machine and batteries. On my issue ridden 5' wheel my cap voltage tops out at around 43V at the end of the charge cycle and thats without the additional RE from an axle generator.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results you get with the larger coils. You should see a nice boost in charging.

Ron

[Les_K]

Ron, Patrick This is really good. Thank you.

I tried to break things down into construction vs operation of the machine. and what you are now talking about is operation. Here is a list of posts that I had compiled that follows along with your thinking.
198, 710, 715, 741, 733, 738, 737, 740, 743, 193, 200, 68, 91
There is a lot more of course but I think this covers the main concepts.

My thoughts go back to what you said earlier, that we should be greater than 1:1 with this machine. I believe Ron you just hit on how we can understand how to do that. Maybe the posts will help. I am not clear on this but It seems there is a real interaction between the monopole section and the ten coils on the shaft. They are sided in such a way it seems they complete the top portion of the triangle. that would mean that we will need to collect energy at that point just as the center coil collects at the other triangle point at the bottom.
If so our machines are only half done.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6786-bedini-ferris-wheel-regauging-motor-4.html#post118352

Les

[Ron Chase]

Ron, Patrick This is really good. Thank you.

I tried to break things down into construction vs operation of the machine. and what you are now talking about is operation. Here is a list of posts that I had compiled that follows along with your thinking.
198, 710, 715, 741, 733, 738, 737, 740, 743, 193, 200, 68, 91
There is a lot more of course but I think this covers the main concepts.

My thoughts go back to what you said earlier, that we should be greater than 1:1 with this machine. I believe Ron you just hit on how we can understand how to do that. Maybe the posts will help. I am not clear on this but It seems there is a real interaction between the monopole section and the ten coils on the shaft. They are sided in such a way it seems they complete the top portion of the triangle. that would mean that we will need to collect energy at that point just as the center coil collects at the other triangle point at the bottom.
If so our machines are only half done.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6786-bedini-ferris-wheel-regauging-motor-4.html#post118352

Les

Les,

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying! With our 3 coil monopole wheels we can get a little over 1:1 but by adding the energy from the re-gauging motor in generator mode (or even another monopole on the shaft in generator mode) we can get to 2:1 or greater. John B explains this in DVD #23 Tech Review. That one DVD is worth gold.

Thanks for the list of posts, I will review them all.

Ron

[BrentA929]

SSR Cap Dump

Ron,

I tried the K12A again...

No luck! Tried hooking it up both ways. When I hook it up the way JB shows in the video, the cap fills up to 100V. It may be dumping but you can't see it and the voltage is way to high for my cap. And when I change the wires it just sits at around 36V and no dumping. I may have to get your SSR.

@JB - Any interest in selling your SSR?


Thanks, Brent

Patrick, it sounds like your K08A is working just not the way you think it should. Here is part of an email I Brent:

"Brent,

Here it is. Because of all the talk over the years about large spikes hitting the negative pole of the battery, I’ve been thinking that if I don’t see a big spike or voltage change at the capacitor then it’s not working. In reality there are big spikes going into the cap but they are absorbed by the cap and then transferred to the battery through the SSR and only show up as pulses of current flow through the analog meter. The charging is there but if you look at the cap dump voltage you will only see very small increments of change at each trigger. Just tweak your machine to get as high a current pulse at the meter and it will charge fine."

Patrick, what I found with my NE2 cap dump circuit was that the circuit was dumping at 70-75V down to about 60V and disappating lots of heat through the FETS. But it only charged slightly better than the simple SSR circuit, just wasted a lot of energy as heat. Your analogy of the water cascading is good but apparently thats all it takes with the larger Ferris Wheels. JB did say to build big!

I know its not what we expected but nevertheless it works. Maybe it just works better on the big wheels.

Ron

[Ron Chase]

Ron,

I tried the K12A again...

No luck! Tried hooking it up both ways. When I hook it up the way JB shows in the video, the cap fills up to 100V. It may be dumping but you can't see it and the voltage is way to high for my cap. And when I change the wires it just sits at around 36V and no dumping. I may have to get your SSR.

@JB - Any interest in selling your SSR?


Thanks, Brent

OK we have to figure this out. Its not dumping anything if your cap voltage is rising to 100V. With your size coils you shouldn't be having any trouble flowing RE through the FET side of that SSR. Email or post a schematic of how you have it hooked up and the component values you're using. One important detail is where you have the plus side of the charge battery connected. I'll see if I can get a K12A data sheet and see if shows a snubber diode and how its hooked up.

Ron

[Ron Chase]

Brent,

I may have discovered why your K12A is not working. Data sheets don't seem to be available for that vintage of Douglas Randall SSR's but I was able to piece together some spec's on the load side ratings which is the side we are using.

K08A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 8A
K12A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 10A
K12B Load Side rated 55VDC @ 12A

So you can see the K12B rated at 55V is probably the SSR John B is using with his wheel since 48V was probably the max his cap floated up to. We just couldn't read the number in the video. The Magnecraft SSR I'm using is rated 200V @12A so its probably overkill and may even be limiting my charging. I will have to do some experimenting with more SSR's to try and characterize the ideal rating range. Could be expensive!

Also try using the IRFP260's we got. It worked for me. Connect between the Drain and Source. I will do the same again with mine.

Ron

[Ron Chase]

Brent,

I may have discovered why your K12A is not working. Data sheets don't seem to be available for that vintage of Douglas Randall SSR's but I was able to piece together some spec's on the load side ratings which is the side we are using.

K08A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 8A
K12A Load Side rated 32VDC @ 10A
K12B Load Side rated 55VDC @ 12A

So you can see the K12B rated at 55V is probably the SSR John B is using with his wheel since 48V was probably the max his cap floated up to. We just couldn't read the number in the video. The Magnecraft SSR I'm using is rated 200V @12A so its probably overkill and may even be limiting my charging. I will have to do some experimenting with more SSR's to try and characterize the ideal rating range. Could be expensive!

Also try using the IRFP260's we got. It worked for me. Connect between the Drain and Source. I will do the same again with mine.

Ron

Brent,

Here's a schematic that shows how to connect the FET. I verified again that the IRFP260 FET (just 1) works on my machine and runs cold to the touch, no heatsink. Be sure to hook up an analog current meter as shown so you can see the current flow and make sure the charge battery connection goes to the right place.

Enjoy, Ron

[BrentA929]

SSR dump

Ron,

Two things...

1) The FET works just like you have shown. My wheel dumps at about 1.5 Amps. You are right, it is hard to tell what voltage it dumps at. I wonder if I truly understand this type of dump. My digital meter shows about 40-41V. I know the digital meter can't really see it.

2) I was wrong about my K12A. I tried it again and found that it does just like the FET and dumps at 1.5 Amps. I was so paranoid when I first did it, I had the analog meter hooked up backwards and I was to focused on the voltage on the cap. Glad to know it works. It actually works in reverse of what JB showed in the video. I wonder why? I have it hooked up like you show in your schematic in post 1830.


Guess it's time to run some tests!


Thanks, Brent

Brent,

Here's a schematic that shows how to connect the FET. I verified again that the IRFP260 FET (just 1) works on my machine and runs cold to the touch, no heatsink. Be sure to hook up an analog current meter as shown so you can see the current flow and make sure the charge battery connection goes to the right place.

Enjoy, Ron