Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

great explanation. YES this is another critical part of the design

do you really think mu metal will improve things. I have some I brought for a magnetic shield when i was playing with fixed magnet motors.

Mu metal makes more sense to me than ferrit based on my observations.
wrong or wright we need conclusive proof of theses concept.

[quantumuppercut]

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

I've been reading this several times now and I think I'm beginning to see the light. lol
I'll be dang if future dynamos runs on this concept. Great job. I'll think about this several times more. lol

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, I tried the same pole magnets facing each other with bifilar air coil in canceling mode and of course no voltage to speak of, though when the bifilar is wired in normal mode, i got about 400 millivots spinning by hand, though that could be because magnet distance to coil of one rotor was different. Not sure how to extract that virtual current.

So I decided to test it out as a bedini motor and it worked pretty good, though the resistance of the main coil is a little low, too many amps at 12 volts.

Anyway, when I made my experiments in the past and saw the speed up effect, I used 1/2" diameter steel bolt cores with 1" diameter neos.
Now the bolts have that large hex head sticking out and overlapping somewhat and could have made a difference in the effect being seen more readily.

Meaning if what shadesz says is close to what may be happening, then the large bolt head may help to get the flux to bypass the incoming coil side briefly.
I mean, wasn't this part of the idea Muller used, with the fewer coil windings at the front and the majority at the back so as to minimize lentz at the front core face permanent magnet interaction.
I even watched a video presentation with Peter L. where he showed this method and said how valuable the idea is.
So that's what I did originally, I ran my magnet rotor past the steel bolt end without any coil windings, as the windings were set back a couple inches and the effect was there to be had at lower rpm.
Then I thought to use dual rotors with a magnet rotor on each side of coil/core and got the effect with much more output. Then Realized at some point that with a high enough rotor speed, that only one magnet rotor was needed at the coil/core face.
Though the dual rotor setup, had very nice output and the effect was had at lower rpm.
Here's a cad pic of the setup that gave nice effects and output. It had 18 gauge wire.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

peace love light
tyson

[Shadesz]

Maybe way off, and bad timing, but has anyone thought to try iron wire coils with an air core? Or, you could even try a small iron coil sourounded by a copper coil. (pull current off both of them?) But then does eddy show his ugly face? hmmm

btw thanks guys. I want to get a good animation of the concept made, but have other things to do atm

[toranarod]

Hi folks, I tried the same pole magnets facing each other with bifilar air coil in canceling mode and of course no voltage to speak of, though when the bifilar is wired in normal mode, i got about 400 millivots spinning by hand, though that could be because magnet distance to coil of one rotor was different. Not sure how to extract that virtual current.

So I decided to test it out as a bedini motor and it worked pretty good, though the resistance of the main coil is a little low, too many amps at 12 volts.

Anyway, when I made my experiments in the past and saw the speed up effect, I used 1/2" diameter steel bolt cores with 1" diameter neos.
Now the bolts have that large hex head sticking out and overlapping somewhat and could have made a difference in the effect being seen more readily.

Meaning if what shadesz says is close to what may be happening, then the large bolt head may help to get the flux to bypass the incoming coil side briefly.
I mean, wasn't this part of the idea Muller used, with the fewer coil windings at the front and the majority at the back so as to minimize lentz at the front core face permanent magnet interaction.
I even watched a video presentation with Peter L. where he showed this method and said how valuable the idea is.
So that's what I did originally, I ran my magnet rotor past the steel bolt end without any coil windings, as the windings were set back a couple inches and the effect was there to be had at lower rpm.
Then I thought to use dual rotors with a magnet rotor on each side of coil/core and got the effect with much more output. Then Realized at some point that with a high enough rotor speed, that only one magnet rotor was needed at the coil/core face.
Though the dual rotor setup, had very nice output and the effect was had at lower rpm.
Here's a cad pic of the setup that gave nice effects and output. It had 18 gauge wire.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

peace love light
tyson

nice work SkyWatcher.
I had often wondered why Muller had the coils wound more to the back like that. I am still trying to cut strips of this MU metal to make a laminated core

[elias]

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

When I first observed this effect I just could not believe my eyes, I used welding rods for the core, and those were not so appropriate and had significant eddy drag. I could get the rotor accelerate at about 1200 RPM. My cores were about 40mm in diameter, pretty large.
I have documented my tests here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

When Rod told me, that the effect is valid only for Iron cores, that hit me, I bought many laminations today, and I am going to test them out. It seems to me that we are almost done, and 2011 is really the year that free energy is going to become obvious!

It is very simple, the reaction just happens a bit late, so that it assists the rotor, instead of resisting. See the explanation over here:
Inertial Propulsion

Here is the quote:

The “transmission time” viewpoint allows us view the second assumption of Newton’s Third Law as an assumption of absolute time (or absolute simultaneity), if the action is at a distance. This assumption continues despite the reality that the “reaction” of a body to an externally applied force can not be simultaneous with the initial application (the “action”) of the external force. This profound restriction on Newton’s Law brings time into the equation -- a restriction which becomes the critical factor.

It should be noted that this concept of a non-simultaneous “reaction time” to an applied force (whatever the nature of that force is considered to be) is applicable not only in mechanics, but also in electromagnetism and other fields of physics. A sudden surge (an “action”) of current along a conductor, for example, will also result in an equal and opposite reaction -- but again not simultaneously. Likewise a rotating shaft surrounded by permanent magnets arranged so as to impel the rotation will encounter an equal and opposite magnetic force which will brake the rotation -- after a time delay, or what might be called the “Critical Action Time” (CAT)!

Elias

[elias]

nice work SkyWatcher.
I had often wondered why Muller had the coils wound more to the back like that. I am still trying to cut strips of this MU metal to make a laminated core

Well done, What is exactly mu metal and where can I get some?

[RAMSET]

Mu Metal For Hero's

You Fellahs are amazing,Tenacious..............
Elias
Mu metal is in Old Hard drives .
It protects the Magnetically sensitive components
Start Bustin up the old Computers.....

Thank you fellows ,this is amazing stuff!!

Chet

[eternalightwithin]

Question about HDDs

How old? All brands?

[citfta]

Mu metal

Where exactly in the old hard drive? I have several of them but I am not sure what is the Mu metal part. Are you talking about the shiny disc the data is stored on?

Thanks for sharing a good source for the Mu metal. If Rod keeps going like he has been all the old drives are going to disappear quickly from the flea markets and yard sales. I already have a pretty good collection from all my years of messing with old computers. I guess it is a good thing to be a pack rat sometimes.

Carroll

[ewizard]

Where exactly in the old hard drive? I have several of them but I am not sure what is the Mu metal part. Are you talking about the shiny disc the data is stored on?

Thanks for sharing a good source for the Mu metal. If Rod keeps going like he has been all the old drives are going to disappear quickly from the flea markets and yard sales. I already have a pretty good collection from all my years of messing with old computers. I guess it is a good thing to be a pack rat sometimes.

Carroll

No not the disk. It's what the neo magnets are attached to. Pics below of what the commonly look like (the mu metal part):
(that round ring in the second pic is just a ring magnet. The other ones are mu metal with the neo magnets on the back of them holding them to a computer case)

[gyula]

An addition to ewizard explanation, see the Backing plate in the link and how to remove it:

Hard Disk Drive Magnets For Wind Turbines - Wind

and also the Cover plate must be another good 'shield' material (and not so thick like the backing plate) shown here:

File:HardDiskAnatomy.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Notice 1: the hard disk and its components are placed on the surface of a mirror.
Notice 2: the backing plate is rather thick (to have appropiate cross section for the Neo magnets) and use it with suspicion to eddy currents in it, just due to its thickness, from this respect the cover plate maybe better because it is much thinner, also easier to cut it up for getting a kind of lamination)

[citfta]

Thanks

Ok I found the Mu metal part. Now how do I get the magnet off the Mu metal? Or do you just cut around the magnet and forget the part the magnet is attached to? It seems to be stuck on there pretty solidly. Can I put the Mu metal in a vise and try to knock the magnet off with a punch and hammer or is it glued in some way?

Carroll

[gyula]

Here is the video I made with cap dump series gen coil acceleration. I was not doing the experiment with Romero in mind but thought it could apply once I looked at it long enough . It raised more questions (for me anyways) and lead to more tinkering which is the point for me. The video was originally recorded with the intent of PM'ing it to someone here and letting them go forward with it. If it helps thats great if not it shows what not to do.

One more thing. I was exhausted from several late nights of experiments plus working all day. A few times it sounds like I am drunk but I'm not just tired. Getting old and cannot stay up anymore like I could when I was younger

http://fan1701.com/stuff/Energetic_files/Gen_coil_in_series.wmv

Sorry no youtube.

al

Hi Al,

Thank you for your video link, it is helpful.
You wrote: "I had placed a diode between the dump switch and the drive battery but was not convinced that it was doing anything."
Would like to show a schematic from another thread here from which you could use capacitor C and store all the energy in it that you recaptured and feed back to the front, and it also contains a diode in the negative line of the battery or power supply:

http://www.energeticforum.com/inductive-resistor/4314-cop-17-heater-rosemary-ainslie.html#post56075

By the help of D1 the fedback energy cannot reach the battery but is accumulated in the electrolytic capacitor, designated as C. Whenever the charge (voltage) level is higher in this C cap than the battery voltage, the rest of your circuit would be driven from the C and when the C is discharged below the voltage of the battery, then current is taken from the battery again. This way you could monitor the voltage level in the C, it can be a good indication how well the recaptured energy (including your series gen coils) supports the prime input energy. For the value of capacitor, it needs experimenting, may range from 470uF to 2200uF, at least 63V DC rated (for lower uF range it needs even higher DC voltage rating like 160V or 250V).

With this D1 and capacitor C inserting, your recaptured energy manifests as a voltage level in the cap and whenever this level is higher than your supply voltage, the input current is taken from this cap and not from the battery. (Of course, if your circuit consume too fast the charge from the cap then you may not see any higher voltage level than the battery (except the difference, the diode D1 forward voltage drop).

Gyula

[gyula]

Ok I found the Mu metal part. Now how do I get the magnet off the Mu metal? Or do you just cut around the magnet and forget the part the magnet is attached to? It seems to be stuck on there pretty solidly. Can I put the Mu metal in a vise and try to knock the magnet off with a punch and hammer or is it glued in some way?

Carroll

Hi Caroll,

see my reply #1244 above for the first link how to remove the magnets.

Magnets are glued to the back plate so hard to remove, using heat may help but you can easily demagnize the heatsensitive Neo magnets.

Gyula