Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[gyula]

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By using electro magnets in place of permanent magnets, then you could cut off the magnetic field at any point during the rotation of the rotor. The generator coils could be placed on the rotor and the switchable magnets could be mounted stationary.
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Hi Steve,

Perhaps the biggest obstacle in your suggestion is the use of brushes? Because you would be forced to use means for accessing the gen coil outputs on the rotor?

One more thing I would be curious: have you figured out how you combine an electromagnet with a permanent magnet so that you get a switchable magnet?

Thanks, Gyula

[scratchrobot]

@elias, Thanks for answering my question, you are right that that sort of question can be a mind block but not in my case.

I think Matthew Jones did a good job on describing the effect here here Thank you Matthew

What if we combine this with the odd-number/even-number configuration of poles/magnets so that a magnetic balance occurs which eliminates the work required to move one pole from the other no matter how large or strong the magnetic surface would be. This concept allows the flywheel to turn easily and efficiently despite the inherent powerful holding force of the magnets?

Regards, scratchrobot

[Steve220]

Hi Steve,

Perhaps the biggest obstacle in your suggestion is the use of brushes? Because you would be forced to use means for accessing the gen coil outputs on the rotor?

One more thing I would be curious: have you figured out how you combine an electromagnet with a permanent magnet so that you get a switchable magnet?

Thanks, Gyula

Hi Gyula,

There is a way to do this with out brushes as all newer large AC generators use radio communications to control the rotor coil exiter electro magnets with the power to operate the electro magnets from its own set of coils on the rotor. No brushes or slip rings required.

On a smaller generator, slip rings could supply power to the rotor electro magnets and the coils switched via hall effect sensors and or switches.

Slip rings have a long life as automotove alternators use them for usually the life of the car as they only supply a small variable current to the rotor magnets to create a variable magnetic field for the stator coils.

A large generator could use radio communications as above to control switching of the rotor coils if needed if slip rings are not used.

No, I am thinking that permanent magnets really don't offer any advantage over electro magnets, plus electromagnets can be turned off when required. Permanent magnets are, well, permanent, on all the time, no matter if you need the magnetic field or not.

So I am thinking, why not just turn on the magnets when you need them and off when you don’t need them. If the rotor magnet is approaching the core of the generator coil core, turn it on. At the half way point, where Lenz kicks in, turn off the rotor magnet. Lenz is automatically eliminated, no coil shorting or whatever needed.

I guess I don’t understand why a permanent magnet, that is “on” all the time is used on a rotor, and then the generator coils are shorted out or whatever else to try to stop the magnetic field from the rotor magnets affecting the generator coils. (Lenz)

It just seems to add more complication to the process. I guess what I am saying, if you don’t need the magnetic field from the rotor magnet past the half way point of the generator coils core, why not just turn it off?

Steve

[Mark]

Wouldn't using an electro magnet double your input though?

[Steve220]

Wouldn't using an electro magnet double your input though?

No, I don't think so. An automotive alternator is a good example. Only a small current is required to maintain a magnetic field in the rotor. The output of the stator windings is many times higher than the small amount of current to maintain the required magnetic field of the rotor. The power from the alternator comes from the belt driven shaft, not from the magnetic field of the rotor.

In the case of a generator that would have switched coils on the rotor, even less current to power the coils would be needed as the coils are only on during the approach to the generator coils core and switched off after passing TDC of the coils core. If the rotor coils and generator coils were staggered so that a minimum of coils would be switched on at the same time, even less current would be required.

If the result of such a operation of the generator produced a excess of power created due to the cancelation of rotor magnet drag after TDC of the generator coils, the extra power, would seem to be more than enough to operate the rotor coils even though the generator coils only would produce power through one half of the passing of the rotor magnets.

However this would allow more generator coils to be used than you could have used otherwise.

Steve

[MonsieurM]

Looks like the Smith coil is spreading

Here's another way to use it

indeed...

[fan1701]

Hi Al,

Would like to know if the input power draw remains nearly the same or changes when you apply the gen coil in series as you described? This would be a key point: the input power would not change (or would even decrease) when you apply the gen coil series insertion.

I did take a measurement with and without. I could not see a difference between the two on an analog amp meter . I had placed a diode between the dump switch and the drive battery but was not convinced that it was doing anything. Then I took the measurement and decided the event was so quick that I may not be able to really see it. I have a video I was going to send to someone on this board and let them investigate it . I was extremely tired when I made the video so it is really bad. The setup was just a test wheel I was working with to try many different effects. I will post it if anyone is interested and everyone can laugh all they want. It does show the effect of speed increase although you just have to look and listen for it. I have no meter for reading wheel speed but you don't need it to observe the effect.

Your test reminds me of Ben Thomas tests with the RomeroUK motor-generator setup where Ben also inserted 2 gen coils output in series with the primary input, see his video:
My Romero Boost Circuit - YouTube

Ben wrote: Just showing how I series main power supply and Romero single coil pair power generator supply to demonstrate boost and increase in RPM and reduction of Lenz.
14VDC in about 2100 rpm, 14VDC in with load on generator but no boost, about 1800 rpm, boost in motor generator sees about 19.5 VDC and runs 2500 RPM +.
Below about 10VDC on Motor, Lenz is greater in generator and just loads down rotor, above that you start to see the Generator/boost effect kick in! On my motor best combination is about 14.000VDC on main power supply.


So I believe this series method needs further investigation because it seems to give some extra without much penalty... thanks for bringing this up.

Gyula

I was thinking that the energy is already in the system in the case of what I was doing . You are simply placing an impedance (gen coil) between the cap and the return to source or where ever you are sending the cap dump energy to and forcing it to turn the wheel faster along the way. Made me immediately think of Romero system. With the complexity of Romero's coil arrangement I thought that some brilliant experimenter that is well versed in that system may devise something from it perhaps helping solve the Romero mystery one way or another. If nothing else it is worth sharing. May help on something else.

I will go load the video on my server and post it in a bit. Also going to go check out the Ben Thomas video you posted. Thanks.

al

[fan1701]

Here is the video I made with cap dump series gen coil acceleration. I was not doing the experiment with Romero in mind but thought it could apply once I looked at it long enough . It raised more questions (for me anyways) and lead to more tinkering which is the point for me. The video was originally recorded with the intent of PM'ing it to someone here and letting them go forward with it. If it helps thats great if not it shows what not to do.

One more thing. I was exhausted from several late nights of experiments plus working all day. A few times it sounds like I am drunk but I'm not just tired. Getting old and cannot stay up anymore like I could when I was younger

http://fan1701.com/stuff/Energetic_files/Gen_coil_in_series.wmv

Sorry no youtube.

al

[Shadesz]

Again, this sounds like an inductance induced magnetic delay in the coil core. It would not make sense to do this with an air core because the RPM would need to be higher creating the need for higher input. Why does iron work so much better? That's what we need to be thinking about if we are to really figure out the inner workings of the effect we see. We should be concentrating on creating the effect at lower RPM's. Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?

I just about jumped out of my chair when I read this! Thanks Zooty! As I am just learning the field, some other stuff is fresh on my mind. The way this was worded, and the questions you asked, helped me connect the two principles! Good work!

I think I know the start of how you guys are overcoming lenz and getting acceleration under load. You may have to clean up the idea, but it might get you started...

Magnetic fields, like electricity, are attracted to the path of least resistance. Copper has no effect on a stagnant magnet, but when moving (when inducing a current in the copper) it resists due to lenz law.

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

It clicked as I was reading, and when I read the last line Zooty posted I couldn't constrain myself! "Romero said that this effect worked best using Mu metal. What does that tell us?" Mu metal has the highest relative permeability of 50,000 μ/μ0! This would mean the field is even more attracted to it than the iron core.

Why doesn't ferrite work? It's magnetic permeability is 16 to 640 μ/μ0. While better than air and copper, it still isn't enough to get the field to jump the gap.

With my current limited knowledge, a way to test this, and to get this effect at lower speeds, would be to use mu metal and the biggest core possible. (didn't rod start noticing these results when he made the core twice the size of the magnets?) Another thing to try would be to add more iron or mu metal to the back of the core behind the coil. This, in theory, would increase the magnetic capacity of the core and thus allow the magnetic jump to last longer. With a longer lasting magnetic jump you need less time (lower RPM) for the magnet to hit TDC before lenz kicks in.

Man I hope this gets you guys rolling. It could be a breakthrough. It has me rolling (on the floor anyway)

[Shadesz]

In simple terms, you are using a highly magnetic permeable core material as...

A FLUX CAPCITOR! (thanks Cody) which stalls lenz's law until somewhere near TDC!

If my theory is correct, a properly designed and tuned generator will need no input once it is up to speed!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadesz]

Back in Time Scene - Back to the Future Movie (1985) - HD - YouTube

[Shadesz]

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Magnet should read coil.

[quantumuppercut]

In today’s work I wanted to begin looking into switching. Switching the generator coils on & off and charging a capacitor will be the next step.
A crude short cut to this technique was to use a diode and have only one cycle conducting a load. Of course we are only going to get half the current potential, as you can see in the table below. However, we are going to incur Lens drag on the approach of the magnet to the coil. As it is the approaching wave form I biased the diode to conduct as the magnet is being attracted to the iron core. Lens law will of course repel the magnet. There should be a current loading condition that would render the presence of the magnetic field as magnetically inert to the presence of the iron core, and with a bit of hysteresis after the diode stops conducting, there should be a push to help the magnet on the rotor on its way out. This is how it appeared to work.
The acceleration was instantaneous and very noticeable if the load was just right and in this case 190 mille amps appeared to give the best results, while with no load on any of the generator coils the RPM was around the 4,190 mark.
I took many readings recording lots of data. A few presented in the table below should be enough to give one a good idea of what was achieved using this technique. I still find 2 magnets on either side of the coil supply the best results. As you can see they are presented in the drawings below.
This is also the first test that I have documented using 2 coils in parallel running to the same supply, working my way up to the Romero design. It is important at this stage to find as many ways to keep the rotor spinning as free from drag as possible. As you know, the more coils that are added will increase drag even without electrical load.

This is good result and expand further understanding. I'm glad you said the acceleration was instantaneous and very noticeable. I wonder if you tried turn the diode around and allow current to flow only when the magnet departing.

[ewizard]

I have been trying to find away to disprove my results.
I thought what if I was wrong and the increase in speed was due to some anomaly in the drag created by Lenz.
I was thinking if it was the drag friction on the rotor that was some how feeding back to the drive coil increasing speed.
I have tried inducing friction from another source. I mounted a small horse hair paint brush just about the rotor and induced the smallest amount of friction to see if I could in anyway make it increase speed. There was no way this would work. No matter what amount of external drag I applied would increases speed, the slightest touch would slow it down immediately. I have tried many things and looked at every other explanation I can think of for the speed increase. There appears to be only one explanation left, the load on the generator coils are causing a drive force assisting the rotational direction.
It is now conclusive there is anomaly in the Lenz law theory if all your conditions are correct you can draw current from a generator and make it more efficient.
We are now heading in the right direction.

That's great Toranarod! Sounds like you are pinning down the secret to this here. Glad to see you trying the DC-DC converter - looks like the one I got.

[boguslaw]

IMHO There is no anomaly in Lenz law, there is anomalous limited understanding of it. Arrangement and geometry change.