Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[quantumuppercut]

The first thing I would like to question is of all the talk, and evidence, of high RPM's overcoming lens law. So far, everyone has referred to the determining variable as RPM's, but to me that seems kind of inaccurate. Wouldn't the actual factor be the speed at which the magnet travels past the coil and/or coil's core?

This is an important distinction because units with varying rotor sizes will have different magnet speeds at the same RPM.

Welcome to the hub Shadesz

I also think along your lines. It's initially hard to identify what is the root cause because we have so many variables, but observations made by experimenters can help. One observation is high coil current. There are many factors contribute to high coil current like resistance, change in magnetic flux, core, magnet..etc. Luckily, the coil and magnet are not changing in the experiment leaving the rotor speed as the variable. With your reasoning, I think we can made changes to coil/core/magnet size, strength, orientation and that could changes result also. Romero use the sides of the magnet or NS or SN passing the core. I think he just squeezing poles to makes more efficient magnet to achieve result at lower speed. The direction we're going right now is merging on zooty, elias, hoptoad(thanks qvision) and it makes sense. Hope we find something else along the way that reinforce our vision. Once we find the root cause, we can just swing it.

[Itsu]

Adams

Qvision,

your link points to a compilation of info by "Hoptoads" about the "Adams motor"
which is similar, but also different to the muller motor.

I can agree with this statement on page 8 about the bifilar drive coil:
"So you've already seen a principle at work in pulsing which "bends" Lenz's Law. Try the bi-filar arrangement in Fig 19 yourself!"

It works, as that my input current went down about 40% keeping the same RPM.

However, the statements on page 11 i can not confirm.
The nice phase angle changes can not be created by me whatever load i put on.
To my calculations on reactance in the coils, the xC (capacitive reactance) is NOT negligable on the slow (200Hz = 1500 RPM)
as being told on that pag. 11 and makes the coils highly capacitive.

By the way, when researching on the Adams motor info in http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Adams.rar , i found references
of this motor being driven in parallel resonance (200uF)
No diagram however is showing this, so i guess that is one of the missing info on the Adams motor.
See this info in the "Adams Manuel Addendum.pdf" in the above rar file:

================================================== ==========================
Coil Config, Used to Drive Motor: COIL 6B IH SERIES COIL 7B
Generator Voltage File VOPR01.DAT ..... Rotor Radius -------- 5.750 In.
Force Function File LBPAOl.DAT ........ Rotor-Stator GaP ---- 0.375 In.
Has Zero-Current Force? YES ........... Angle ON ------------ 55.000 deg.
Mode of Operation ATTRACTION .......... Angle OFF ----------- 80.000 Deg.
Rotation Direction CLOCKWISE .......... Duty Cycle ---------- 0.278.
Windage Drag at 100RPH 0.002 FtLb ..... Reporting Interv for Cal 1.000 Deg
Coil Inductance ------- 13.530 MHn .... Integrate Steps/Rep Intv 100
Capacitance ----------- 2OO.OOO Ufd ... Total Loops Calculated 6
Coil Resistance ------- 1.300 Ohm ..... Intervals to sw Close 55
Capacitor Resistance -- 0.200 Ohm ..... Interyals to Sw Open 80
Battery Resistance----- 0.800 Ohm ..... Resonant FrequencY---- 96.751 Hz
BatterY Voltage-------- 12.900 Vlt. ... Resonant Freq equvalent 1451.268 RPH
================================================== ==========================


When taking the coil inductance of 13.53 mH and a capacitor of 200 uF, then indeed we have resonance at 96Hz
when using this calcutor: L/C Resonance Calculator


Regards Itsu

[Altair]

Excellent find, Itsu !

The Adams motor HAD to have capacitance matched to the coils because there was mention at many places in the documentation that it ran in resonance.
But none of the schematics showed a capacitor.

Now thanks to you, this test report confirms it.

[Zooty]

Zooty; Why do you think you are wrong?

this is the only theory that makes any sense

I thought i was probably wrong because i had seen so many other explanations for it on here and all seemed a lot more technical than mine. When it comes to L/R stuff, i'm not that clued up and this is where i probably failed when i tried it a few years ago. In hind sight, my RPM was too low for starters. My iron core was too big and i probably had too much resistance on the coil.

Rod, have you tried a transformer from an old AC-DC adapter to step up your gen coil voltage? Just hook up the low side to your coil and see what you get on the high side.

[elias]

If people would follow the link i gave in my last post above and read pages 8 and 11 and tell me what they think, i think it gives a good insight into what is happeneing here.

That explanation is correct but it doesn't mean we don't have any COP>1 effect. I had seen those pages before, really informative.

[Zooty]

If people would follow the link i gave in my last post above and read pages 8 and 11 and tell me what they think, i think it gives a good insight into what is happeneing here.

So my theory was partially right but i never took in to account the resistance of the coil. According to the document, the delay in the core increases as the coil resistance decreases which now makes absolute sense! Drop the resistance of your coil more and more and lenz is offset more and more. Once lenz happens on the on the trailing side of a magnet, it pushes it. I guess core material is of importance here to get the best effect and ferrite is probably not a good choice unless you are going above 6000 RPM. Low frequency core material with good permeability like soft iron is probably a good easy to find alternative.

[elias]

Rod,

Iron cores have eddy currents and can produce misleading results. The DC motor is Buhler 80W motor 3000 RPM. I drive it at 20V to 3000RPM and 40V to get 6000RPM.

BECAREFUL if you are to increase the rpm, it is like a bomb.

I doubled the windings of my 2mm wire coil resulting in about 500 turns.
I ran the motor at about 5580 RPM, when I short the coil, while drawing really good amount of current the RPM only dropped to 5547! Not much at all.

Elias

[toranarod]

So my theory was partially right but i never took in to account the resistance of the coil. According to the document, the delay in the core increases as the coil resistance decreases which now makes absolute sense! Drop the resistance of your coil more and more and lenz is offset more and more. Once lenz happens on the on the trailing side of a magnet, it pushes it. I guess core material is of importance here to get the best effect and ferrite is probably not a good choice unless you are going above 6000 RPM. Low frequency core material with good permeability like soft iron is probably a good easy to find alternative.

Good
this is what I observed that's why I asked why did you think you where on the wrong track. good explanation you have posted above.
How do we come up with a the optimal set up. we still need more definable parameters to get the appropriate data.

I want to set up an external drive motor like Elias.Thanks for the info on the motor.

back to work
cheers

[citfta]

Soft iron cores

Rod,

Iron cores have eddy currents and can produce misleading results.

Elias

I agree solid iron cores can cause real problems with eddy currents. However if you use small pieces of iron for your core you can eliminate the eddy currents. I use electric fence wire cut into lengths the same as my coil length. I have never had any problems with it heating up because of eddy currents. You can also use old transformer laminations but of course they are a little harder to come by and may have to be cut to the size you need.

I have been following this thread from the beginning and trying to keep up with all the developments. Several of you are a real inspiration to the rest of us. Especially Rod and his determination. I am still running my own tests and if I discover anything interesting I will be sure and share it.

Carroll

[142857]

142857

A couple things.
First, have you taken into consideration that there is inherent energy in the magnets that we do not pay for?

I just have to say that this is imo, and contrary to most of the evidence, incorrect.
the magnet has no more inherent energy than say a spring.


a magnetic field may hold some potential energy as a result of it's placement in proximity to some other material or other magnet.

[qvision]

@Itsu

Those files on my home webpage :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Adams.rar

don't mention specific resistances but some of the diagrams include parallel circuits, and in the same collection Adams mentions a range of resistances rather than a specific one.

I think it's the concept which is important rather than a one hundred percent, physically exact replication, as Adams himself states that the pulse-circuitry can be either mechanical commutator or magnetic induction or optical or whatever, and he seems to give us lots of design-leeway when it comes to magnet composition vs input voltage also.

And yes, the Adams pages on Totally Amped don't claim OU, in fact the author is highly skeptical.

But one has to admit there is something very strange about magnetism, it's all very well explaining it away in domains and BH curves etc.. but in the end it is just like gravity - no-one really has a clue.

We're so lucky to have forums like this where we can all share results and opinions, perhaps more advancements would be made if a few people collaborated more efficiently on a specific problem as FreePenguin has suggested, then we could share objectives and results and work in parallell, which is a great potential of the net, a sort of human-work-hours multiplier, a virtual laboratory.

P.S. Ye, C390 ferrite cores for the win !

[Farmhand]

What about Iron powder cores ?

Plain cores on the right side of the page.
Micrometals - Iron Powder Cores

Material details
Micrometals - Iron Powder Cores

They are fairly inexpensive, I bought some 38mm x 9.5mm core's a while back for less than a dollar Au. each from memory. I don't know if they would be any good for this application. I just thought I would mention it since I haven't seen them mentioned yet. They work for me in other applications but I don't know enough to comment on thier application here. Most people seem to prefer ferrite for some reason.

[quantumuppercut]

I've done a analysis on the kromrey waveform vs resonant waveform.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Seems like the kromrey is 2x the resonant frequency.

[toranarod]

I agree solid iron cores can cause real problems with eddy currents. However if you use small pieces of iron for your core you can eliminate the eddy currents. I use electric fence wire cut into lengths the same as my coil length. I have never had any problems with it heating up because of eddy currents. You can also use old transformer laminations but of course they are a little harder to come by and may have to be cut to the size you need.

I have been following this thread from the beginning and trying to keep up with all the developments. Several of you are a real inspiration to the rest of us. Especially Rod and his determination. I am still running my own tests and if I discover anything interesting I will be sure and share it.

Carroll

I have never actually mentioned this before. Sorry.
MY Iron cores are laminates

[Zooty]

I think i know why Romero's motor speeds up so much in this video ‪RomeroUK Video Pre-Muller release‬‏ - YouTube

Assuming the effect is caused by a delay in the core making lenz late, if you have a south pole magnet just after your north goes by, when lenz kicks in, not only is it going to push north but it is going to attract south. Look at his magnets. They are nsns stuck side by side. Also, low resistance/high inductance coils must play a big part in the delay of the core. The lower the resistance coupled with high inductance seems to cause more delay in the core. How do you get low resistance/high inductance? Romero's coil that slider showed is the key. Bedini also modified his kromray build by doing 3 parallel wires on his output coil instead of the single strand. That thing speeds up like crazy under load.