Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Steve220]

Slider

"I can confirm that the any voltage same speed running also works on the first coil I wound. It should be the same for other folks coils. One of the cool things is that you can strongly feel the most effective position for setting up when the coil is stationary. Moving the rotor by hand, you can feel the hum decrease and increase as the coil oscillates."

This has got be really interesting information.
I think this is an important discovery. Thanks, Steve

Sorry to hear about your kitten.

[Slider2732]

Thanks Steve

On the previous page, Toranarod has pics of several coil types...that got me thinking.
I took an ex PC monitor circuit board and lo and behold, found a tall coil choke (approx 1" in height), similar to the one on the right of his pic. But this was multi-wire Litz type wound !
I've wondered for a couple of days what would happen if the same number of wires were on all connections, rather than 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. The coil had 10 wires !
So, 5 and 5 it was. Continuity tested same as the previous 2 coils and wired it up the same way too.
It is STRONG.
This is before any thoughts of rewiring to Bruce's idea on OU forum.
I powered up to 12V and brought it near to the rotor to look at where it wanted to run best and a neo unglued it self and stuck to the front, thwack !!!
Without a magnet on the back, the rotor will spin up from what must be an inch away - a long way for any coil with a small surface area to aim at.
The resonance oscillation stuff when held in the hand is amazing....a lot more than the other 2 coils.
It may be a Lenz nightmare, a current hog and take some serious neo fitting to the back to cancel some effects, but this thing was a shock to discover that it runs a rotor so well.

Main thing - if you're taking the neck stuff off a monitor anyway, check the main circuit board for a hidden potentially excellent freebie. They're mostly done for you. All windings are already on the core, adjustable ferrite is in the middle too.

Update - With probes across the coil inputs, the readings are surely too low ?
27ma at 12v, 8mA at 3V
Feels like it drags about an amp the way the thing vibrates.

[Steve220]

Strange coil

Thanks slider. This is so strange, I am starting to think that there is something special going on with internal coil shorting. I have been thinking about this and maybe the parallel wiring inside the coil, shorted back on its self is key.

Current flowing two different directions in parallel wires, tend to cancel the magnetic field out in the two wires, but there is still a small magnetic field present. If that small magnetic field in the two parallel wires, in a coil, I think, would still build up a magnetic field in a core.

But since the coil wires are shorted back through the coil, the magnetic field in the core might become self reinforcing as there is really no where for the induced current in the wires from the core, or the built up magnetic field in the core induced back into the wires to go.

Kind of a ping pong effect, at least until wire resistance sets in and stop the effect or the ping pong effect builds to the point to overcome the wire resistance, creating, heat , I would guess.

So some internal magnetic confusion sets in as to what to do and the result is a strong magnetic field builds up in the core, once the process is started by an external magnetic field applied to the core of the coil.

This does sound odd to me, but there is only wire, a bobbin, and a core to work with. So whatever is going on in the coil, only has these parts to work with.

It does not leave much choice, so if this is not it, I am at a loss to explain it, at this point in time any way as this strange effect was never discussed in the electronics school that I went to a loooong time ago.

Steve

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, Hi slider, thanks for sharing your latest experiments with that coil setup, will be trying that in the near future.
Also, slider, it's funny since I know you are into rc flight, I was searching for a homemade flying wing to build and noticed your post in rc groups. I'm going to build the divinity 2 foam wing electric plane, hehe.
peace love light
tyson

[Slider2732]

it would seem that many people think there should be zero magnetic force within. Well, all I know is that the most powerful coil of mine is the 5 strands aside equal wires coil...which should cancel itself out so much that it would look like the circuit was bust lol
My fave theory so far is the ringing effect, seen in some of lasersaber's video's.

Ah yes SkyWatcher, well I arrived on this forum after following multiple links for wireless energy devices on YouTube vids. Wireless flight and fresh motor systems are a goal. Little steps, big project. These coils will be working their way into R/C flight, just as pulse motors are intended to. The lack of brushes and other gumf lends itself so very well to powered R/C boats as another thought, water protection built in by what isn't built in !
I have a couple of posts on my Blog at RCGroups recently that are of tiny pulse motors. Built them out of the internals of old PC mice, the spinny wheels of ball mice. A flying Muller gen OU device would be cool huh or at least to get past that 6 or 7 minutes of flight time everyone takes for granted.
Luckily, i've managed to keep my Blog on the forums homepage for over a year now. It's a 'Featured Blog', something i'm very proud of and attempt to be a bit radical within the posts. OK, put that another way, what can I build out of Dollar Tree foam and older radio gear that will fly lol.
So this research will be taking to the skies, it's partly why i'm here..
The Divinity II is beautiful. DaveReap I think designed that. 1920's art-deco looking formings of the KFm sections.
An alternative flying wing might be my Storm Runner

[Steve220]

Ringing effect

"it would seem that many people think there should be zero magnetic force within. Well, all I know is that the most powerful coil of mine is the 5 strands aside equal wires coil...which should cancel itself out so much that it would look like the circuit was bust lol
My fave theory so far is the ringing effect, seen in some of lasersaber's video's."

Odd you should mention ringing effect. This is why the multistrand wire is used in deflection coils, to reduce the ringing effect. But I am to understand that the multi strand wire is run in series in deflection coils.

I have to say, that out of all the billions and billions of coils made on this planet, it seems odd that this effect had not been seen before. Or has it?

May be Muller did.

Steve

[Steve220]

Even more odder

Slider, after rereading your posts about ten times, I suddenly thought about something unrelated to magnet motors, but some what (maybe) similar in operation to your new coil discovery.

Some of the effects you describe, are, in some ways similar to the reported effects of the Steven Mark TPU device.

Steven Mark has always claimed his TPU devices used simple coils of wire arranged in a special way.

May be, this is, or something similar to this, is the special way.

I don't know if there is any connection or not, but I do find it interesting.

Steve

[Slider2732]

I'll have a look at that
(have just seen your post after hitting 'Reply' because I waffle below)

The wires are simply terminated with a blob of solder to all wires on a monitor neck and thicker single strand is also used on some. I believe that to be the difference, all connected as a single wire would be and all changes when those wires are separated out.

It's probably not so much an untapped method, so much as it doesn't make usual sense. To relate to R/C again, little models of a few grams in weight often have rudders that move by way of a coil and magnet. Hinges are of floppy disk material or cotton thread or something. Every coil ever referred to in build threads or those bought in a store will use a single wind of a few hundred turns for the coil. I've never seen an exception to that coil method and the main point is, i've never thought to wonder about a different way of winding them ! Noone says it's the best way, just that its the way it's done.
And, what happens to a Tesla tower, window motor or radio related coils if wound this way ?
While these different methods increase voltage and decrease current for anti-Lenz, I wonder if other methods increase current, reduce voltage and increase magnetic properties. For R/C designs that have to scrape every gram of weight into multiple uses of that weight, reducing coil sizes for same current throughput is attractive.
The frequencies, harmonics and alternative uses are going to be fun to look at. Bruce over at OU says his method increases the voltage even higher with his winding method...being as Tesla towers are all about voltage, that sounds like a plan to try to me.

People reference the method as deriving from Tesla, so does anyone know off hand if that is correct ? his bifilar is common enough in Joule Thiefs of course.

[Joit]

"it would seem that many people think there should be zero magnetic force within. Well, all I know is that the most powerful coil of mine is the 5 strands aside equal wires coil...which should cancel itself out so much that it would look like the circuit was bust lol
My fave theory so far is the ringing effect, seen in some of lasersaber's video's."

Odd you should mention ringing effect. This is why the multistrand wire is used in deflection coils, to reduce the ringing effect. But I am to understand that the multi strand wire is run in series in deflection coils.

I have to say, that out of all the billions and billions of coils made on this planet, it seems odd that this effect had not been seen before. Or has it?

May be Muller did.

Steve

There are a lot inefficient Motors out there, just take once a Fan motor from a Car apart, very thick Wire with very less windings, it runs close on a Short, what means, you need more Gas with the Car.
Or most AC Motors, they say, its like Tesla did them, Not. He had actually 4 Coils. When you look up Wikipedia, they dont really mention anymore anything at AC Motors invented by Tesla. And wonder, how such Motors would run, when you take the Alluminium out from this Cage, how much better they would run.
We got no Science anymore, only Business.
Maybe someone did see this Effect, but had no Voice then.
"Do your Job Guys, i make the Money". It seems anyway more, this is for classical Thinking a unwanted Effect, and when you dont run it on Pulses, it slows anyway only the Motor down. They do create her Stuff as they got teached, and been brainswashed, that there is nothing more.

[Bruce_TPU]

I'll have a look at that
(have just seen your post after hitting 'Reply' because I waffle below)

The wires are simply terminated with a blob of solder to all wires on a monitor neck and thicker single strand is also used on some. I believe that to be the difference, all connected as a single wire would be and all changes when those wires are separated out.

It's probably not so much an untapped method, so much as it doesn't make usual sense. To relate to R/C again, little models of a few grams in weight often have rudders that move by way of a coil and magnet. Hinges are of floppy disk material or cotton thread or something. Every coil ever referred to in build threads or those bought in a store will use a single wind of a few hundred turns for the coil. I've never seen an exception to that coil method and the main point is, i've never thought to wonder about a different way of winding them ! Noone says it's the best way, just that its the way it's done.
And, what happens to a Tesla tower, window motor or radio related coils if wound this way ?
While these different methods increase voltage and decrease current for anti-Lenz, I wonder if other methods increase current, reduce voltage and increase magnetic properties. For R/C designs that have to scrape every gram of weight into multiple uses of that weight, reducing coil sizes for same current throughput is attractive.
The frequencies, harmonics and alternative uses are going to be fun to look at. Bruce over at OU says his method increases the voltage even higher with his winding method...being as Tesla towers are all about voltage, that sounds like a plan to try to me.

People reference the method as deriving from Tesla, so does anyone know off hand if that is correct ? his bifilar is common enough in Joule Thiefs of course.

Hi Slider,

Great work on your coil. Very interesting effect.

Mags at OU shared this link, it is VERY interesting and will explain the "strength" of your coil. Take it a step further with MANY more strands, and test the magnetic strength....

YouTube - ‪By Coil Design, When Less Becomes More.wmv‬‏

Cheers,

Bruce

[yx630514]

Hi: Slider2732, toranarod
Your experiment is very good,
But: My English is not good, Can only rely on the google translation, So understand your meaning very difficult.

I would like to know exactly:
1) The picture in the coil connections, Is used to "drive" or "generate"?
2) how to connect the coil and circuit specific? Best to use the figure shows.

Thanks in advance.

[Slider2732]

Thanks Bruce, i'll certainly check out that vid. Also I fully intend to rewire the newest coil made last night to the method you described at the OU forum. It has 10 wires and has more power than you can shake a stick at already...in fact the stick would probably explode with your wiring method lol
Would you be so kind as to explain the system for 10 wires ? thanks in advance.

yx630514 - I hope I can help and would like to add to information that Toranarod may post later.
1) the coils will work as both generator and collector coils. They can work as both. My videos show powering of the motor and energy collected, by using just 1 of the coils.
2) Yes, the same as the diagram shows. Where you see the bottom of Litz 1, 2 and 3 that connects to the top of Litz 4, 5, 6, and 7, that is only one solder connection. All of those wires connect together without the need of a wire between them.

[Zooty]

Thanks Bruce, i'll certainly check out that vid. Also I fully intend to rewire the newest coil made last night to the method you described at the OU forum. It has 10 wires and has more power than you can shake a stick at already...in fact the stick would probably explode with your wiring method lol
Would you be so kind as to explain the system for 10 wires ? thanks in advance.

yx630514 - I hope I can help and would like to add to information that Toranarod may post later.
1) the coils will work as both generator and collector coils. They can work as both. My videos show powering of the motor and energy collected, by using just 1 of the coils.
2) Yes, the same as the diagram shows. Where you see the bottom of Litz 1, 2 and 3 that connects to the top of Litz 4, 5, 6, and 7, that is only one solder connection. All of those wires connect together without the need of a wire between them.

Something just clicked in my empty head It would seem that your radiant energy is being fed back in to the magnetic field and used to push the rotor faster than it would normally turn. When your spikes are being fed to the neon, the RPM is lower. A similar effect can been seen when you pass a standard bedini SSG output to another coil against the wheel before the charging battery.

[toranarod]

Hi: Slider2732, toranarod
Your experiment is very good,
But: My English is not good, Can only rely on the google translation, So understand your meaning very difficult.

I would like to know exactly:
1) The picture in the coil connections, Is used to "drive" or "generate"?
2) how to connect the coil and circuit specific? Best to use the figure shows.

Thanks in advance.

This is one of my driver circuits and recovery circuits.
It has been tested on wide rage of coil loads and voltage ranges.
Its primer function was to collect back EMF and supply High voltage to another coil using the same circuit.

when the circuit is in its off state it consumes no current

[Bruce_TPU]

Thanks Bruce, i'll certainly check out that vid. Also I fully intend to rewire the newest coil made last night to the method you described at the OU forum. It has 10 wires and has more power than you can shake a stick at already...in fact the stick would probably explode with your wiring method lol
Would you be so kind as to explain the system for 10 wires ? thanks in advance.

yx630514 - I hope I can help and would like to add to information that Toranarod may post later.
1) the coils will work as both generator and collector coils. They can work as both. My videos show powering of the motor and energy collected, by using just 1 of the coils.
2) Yes, the same as the diagram shows. Where you see the bottom of Litz 1, 2 and 3 that connects to the top of Litz 4, 5, 6, and 7, that is only one solder connection. All of those wires connect together without the need of a wire between them.

Hi Slider,

Well, I have a coil with 10,000 feet of wire and 44 strands. A "big boy toy"! LOL

For a ten strander, try five coils first, as shown in the video, using even sets of two wires.

Then from the same coil, try 10 coils, using single wires, ends to starts, of course.

I think you may be able to "drastically" reduce your input wattage, as you strengthen the magnetic field of the coil. I envision it as magnetic fields, building, or expanding, one inside of the other, until you end up with a massive magnetic field. The final motor coil will be massively strong and require very little wattage to power. I hope that helps!

Looking forward to your next video... (wink!)

Cheers,

Bruce