Joule Ringer!

[NickZ]

JonnyD, Lidmotor, Seth, and All:
This has all gotten very interesting...
First I would like to thank JonnyDavro for his great advice and explanation, every word is well fixed in my mind now.
I would like to say that I've also been connecting my Exciter circuits to my homemade carbon/Al cells, and am getting wireless to almost a foot away from the coils. And able to light leds, wireless, but not the Cfls, yet.
This is just using two carbon cells, at 1.2 volts, and about 8mAs total for both cells. I can only imagine what would happen using 6 or more of these perpetual output homemade cells, which can easily be placed inside of the Exciter coil tube.
I'm also working (or playing) with the garden light solar cells (6 cells) to see what I can do with those, in relation to the Exciter circuits.
All very fun stuff...

Here is another comment from SeaMonkey concerning electrolysis:

I've followed the discussion there and have noticed that
Seth has remarkable abilities and a natural talent towards
pedagogy. His videos are well thought out and provide
great insights with unusual clarity.

I must add that both NickZ and LidMotor have contributed
greatly to the progress of the discussion. Well done!

"When electrolyzing salt water it is
indeed possible to produce both Oxygen and
Chlorine at the positive plate under certain
conditions in varying proportions".

"The electrolysis of salt water with suitable electrodes
able to stand up to the harsh conditions is
fascinating business. In fact, it is big business".

The fireworks industry uses tons of chlorates
and perchlorates so produced annually. Not to
mention the Chlorine Bleach for home use and
the Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide production".

[jonnydavro]

@Seth.Thanks for the electrode tests.I never even new oxygen could be reabsorbed so you end up with only one gas.It seems chemistry is even more mysterious than electronics .
@Nickz.The Dr Stiffler sec circuits that you are experimenting with are a lot harder to crack than the Slayer exciter type as the tuning part involves multiple components and to get it right is part guesswork, part sweat and a lot of time and luck.
The basic components you need are two 10uh and two 22uh fixed inductors and a bunch of small caps.I have managed to get very large coils and also tiny ones going with different combinations of these chokes.
You also need 2 small magnets.These I have found are the key to tuning.You can have a dead circuit and then place a magnet on L2 inductor and the circuit starts emitting rf.Then you can play with cap values,0.82nf(821) is a good starting point and maybe a magnet on L1 inductor.
Also,believe it or not,the type and quantity of protection leds plays a major part in achieving max output. Try none,add one and add another,change the colour and you will see it makes a difference.
If you are going to make a small L3 coil.I would wind it with the finest wire you can find and wind it over a few days to make sure you get it neat and tight.My wire guage was 40swg- 0.122mm.Make a long pigtail on it so you can snip it of as this a tuning factor too.On my small plasma producing Dr stiffler sec.It was tuning the pigtail that got the plasma.I have that circuit safe in a box as it is the only plasma emitting sec I am aware of on the planet.Kyle Carrington had a beauty that was spewing plasma but he snipped the pigtail and lost it so you can see how the smallest change can either make a sec or kill it.
You do’t have any of these problems with the tiny slayer exciters though.You just need to use a ferrite core but I would carry on in the direction your going because Dr Stiffler has shown his circuits can run on energy from Nowhere with his psec circuits so you probably have to learn the SEC circuit to give yourself a chance at cracking that.Hope this helps and happy experimenting.Jonny.
@Lidmotor.Thanks for replicating.It seems Larskro did a torroid version of this a while back.How a toroid compares to a mains transformer would be interesting .
Your circuit seems a lot more efficient than mine as I can’t go down to 69mV but yours was still going and you could start it on such a low level .How low will it actually go?Someone wrote me that he had one going on 23mV .
I wonder if you connected a whole bunch of capasitors in a series/parallel arrangement,would the cap self charging effect allow a continous runner?
It will run from a water battery and just holding two dissimilar metals with a storage cap so it may be of use for the home made battery tests but like you I am suprised that a transistor circuit can actually run on such a low input voltage and there does seem to be a capasitive effect at play which is very evident on the large MOT transformer and as you reduce the size of the transformer the run frequency and blinking speed up.Just go’s to show that there are still plenty of suprises out there.Many thanks.Jonny.

[Bodkins]

Peace to.all... To much fun happening fun here.. Replucating the reverse johndravo today.. Got some ideas will upload video ... Thanks everyone..
Bodkins

[Lidmotor]

Replication of Jonny's Reverse Joule Thief

@Jonny & All
I was successful replicating your "Reverse Joule Thief" today. Thanks to your videos and Slider's explanation here I was able to get my MOT to finally work on the circuit. It is amazing that the oscillator will run below 100 millivolts ---but it does! I got mine to work on not only a 2N3055 but also a MPSA06 and a 2N2222. I show the circuit running here on the 2N2222. The wave form on the scope shows mine still running at under .07 volts. WOW!


Jonnydavro's Reverse Joule Thief - YouTube


@Nick Z & Seth
I did another electrolysis experiment today using graphite electrodes like you did Seth and sure enough----bubbles formed on both electrodes. SeaMonkey was right.

Lidmotor

[seth]

Flathunter:
I'm wondering how you are able to use 32 volts on your big Exciter, direct through resistor to the transistor base, without the transistor going up in smoke. I'm asking as I'm still having some problems with transistor heat on my "Exciter Joule Lamp" circuit (pictured below), when using 12 volts. I'm using a 1 meg resistor, on a 2n2222, or pnp3906, or similar transistors, they work fine on 1 to 10 volts, but can't handle 12v.
Yesterday I had the 2n2222 transistor pop then turned bright red and actually light on fire, smoke everywhere. Any suggestions are welcome, before my wife kicks me off the kitchen table.

JohhnyDavro: I see that you've used a tiny 2cm coil on your Exciter L3 and still get similar results as the guys using much bigger Exciter coils. Any comments related with that? I'm very interested in seeing how the smaller coils can work practically as well.

Thanks for writing about SeaMonkey's ideas above. I agree that its just a metal oxide forming in the one gas electrolysis.

I am also massively impressed by how small Slider and Jonny make their coils, and how much plasma they can still get. Well done lads!

I use a 32V input at around 1A, and it'll work (with the transistor on a heat sink) for about 15 minutes before exploding/smoking/ or just going out quietly. Generally, I only use it for five minutes MAX. I can only get it to work with an MJE13007 (these are the most robust for sure) on 32V, or with IRF 530/630/730/830 on 15V and lower voltages.

Check out what this Russian guy gets out of an K2611 @ 100V input!!!

качер - YouTube

I have bought 5 of these transistors, and I have yet to get them working successfully...but I will be sure to make a video when I do, and I will try not to burn my house down!

Happy experimenting

[NickZ]

Flathunter:
I'm wondering how you are able to use 32 volts on your big Exciter, direct through resistor to the transistor base, without the transistor going up in smoke. I'm asking as I'm still having some problems with transistor heat on my "Exciter Joule Lamp" circuit (pictured below), when using 12 volts. I'm using a 1 meg resistor, on a 2n2222, or pnp3906, or similar transistors, they work fine on 1 to 10 volts, but can't handle 12v.
Yesterday I had the 2n2222 transistor pop then turned bright red and actually light on fire, smoke everywhere. Any suggestions are welcome, before my wife kicks me off the kitchen table.

JohhnyDavro: I see that you've used a tiny 2cm coil on your Exciter L3 and still get similar results as the guys using much bigger Exciter coils. Any comments related with that? I'm very interested in seeing how the smaller coils can work practically as well.

[seth]

Hi guys,

Here are some experiments using a variety of metals as the electrodes, including 2 Carbon Rods.

electrolysis with an exciter - different metals as electrodes - YouTube

My conclusion is that when only one electrode is producing gas (H2), then the other electrode still produces oxygen, but the oxygen immediately reacts with the metal, and forms an oxide layer. I dont see the other electrode disintegrating, but I do see another layer on its surface, and I assume that its a metal oxide.

When using electrodes which are highly unreactive (like Carbon) the oxygen is liberated as in the standard electrolysis of water.

I've really enjoyed getting back into these chemistry experiments - thanks for getting me interested!

[jonnydavro]

Reverse Joulethief-silicon transistor running on 75mV

Hi .I have been experimenting recently with a circuit I am calling a reverse Joulethief and it is behaving quite strangely in regards to the npn 2n3055 transistor by allowing the circuit to run down to just 75mV.
This is the lowest input voltage I have ever seen used by a silicon npn transistor and without having a scope, I would only be guessing at how it works.
What do you think?Jonny
Reverse joulethief-Silicon transistor mystery- YouTube
@NickZ.Thanks for posting that explanation.Maybe the next step would be to lose the salt and maybe use two carbon rod electrodes.
On the electrolysis experiment I showed,the HV lead was the cathode and the other leg of the cap which was connected to battery+ must be the anode although I get the same results with the jouleringer circuit with a negative battery connection.
It was the anode which was eroding but the cathode shows some erosion as well but Nowhere near as much as the anode but that is a good thing for me as I was trying to show AC electrolysis.Cheers.Jonny.
@Seth.Amazing vid mate Thats a lot of gas on just one electrode and of a pickup coil as well .
Can you try it with two carbon rods as this may elimanate the "active metal" element in seamonkeys explanation.Jonny
@Lidmotor.I am sure you will get the MOT going but most mains transformers will work.
The one gas thing has got me scratching my head and after watching seths vid,I find it hard to believe that so much oxygen could be reaborbedCheers.Jonny.

[NickZ]

@ Lidmotor and All:
In reply to Lidmotors post concerning the electrolysis on one electrode, is a post that was made by SeaMonkey at another forum. I've taken the liberty to re-post it here, which I hope he does not mind. We have an ongoing friendly relationship, and his knowledge simply blows me away, and should not be overlooked.
NickZ

Quote from SeaMonkey/Dumped
This is a common occurrence when the "plates" of the
makeshift electrolyzer are active metals and the current
is relatively weak.

The Oxygen liberated at the Positive Electrode while still
in its atomic state is capable of reacting quickly with the
electrode metal to form oxides before any visible bubbles
form. If salt water is used as the electrolyte then it will
be atomic chlorine at the positive electrode which reacts
with the metal to form compounds while eroding the metal.

The tell-tale signs of this oxidation are an increasing opacity
of the solution as it becomes cloudy or muddied by the
metallic compounds which emanate from the positive
electrode. All of the oxygen or chlorine is consumed as
quickly as it is liberated. In sufficient time the positive
electrode will show visible erosion and loss of metal in
addition to discoloration.

The result is that only hydrogen bubbles form and escape
from the solution at the negative electrode which will remain
shiny and clean (no discoloration.)

The wave applied to the electrolyzer will accomplish electrolysis
when it has sufficient DC Offset.

[Slider2732]

Cor lummy Seth !

That'll be the PC printer power supply you are using ?
Hmm, 1.6A or similar, but an easy step up from a car battery would work, I presume. However - is there a 'best' point or is it all linear ? with more voltage being the factor and/or more current ?

Collection systems are a new avenue now perhaps...with timed pulse ignition of the collected gas, in something like a lawnmower engine.
See, if we look at how complicated Stan's system was, there can easily be cruder yet effective systems for quantity control, feed system and ignition. There's really no obstacle in using a similar exciter setup for plasma ignition, being as that's what many of us see in exciter outputs at 12V.

What jumps across a regular car spark plug if we put an exciters output to it ?

[seth]

Hi guys,

It's been a while. I've been enjoying your electrolysis (?) videos, and I've finally managed to get some electrolysis working with my exciter. I haven't used the same set up, and so I'm not sure that this is working according to the same principles as your set ups. I have used a THIRD COIL as a pick up (like a step down coil) and then wired those ends to my diode in water - I get lots and lots of gas. If I turn my diode round (IN 4148 - oher diodes work, but not nearly as well), then I get gas coming from the other electrode (either a croc clip, or I show a carbon rod at the end of this video), and if the other electrode has lots of surface area then I get lots of gas. I also get a precipitate forming. Have a gander if its interesting

Electrolysis with an exciter - YouTube

A video that shows gas is only produced at one electrode

electrolysis of water with only 1 gas produced - YouTube

[Slider2732]

@Lidmotor - I'm still falling short on bubbles myself (didn't Michael Jackson say something similar ?). The small '103' orange ceramic cap in series with one HV output, definitely makes both LED's run to denote AC on Jonny's circuit. I wonder if that simple mod would work on your setup.
MOT wiring has been trial and error here, but, if your MOT has a central output on the Secondary then that connects to the left hand Primary lead, as you look at them head on. They are your battery Positive line. Transistor Collector goes to the other Primary connection. Base connection comes from the other Secondary tab. HV comes out of the case, as Jonny mentioned and the other end from a load goes to either of the battery connections.

I'm thinking that because without a load, such as a bulb, that one connection is connected to the battery, then that end becomes lost to HV. Hence, just the other lead will show electrolysis.

[Lidmotor]

Electrolysis experiment using Super Joule Ringer 2.0

@Jonny
I have a MOT that I tried to make work on your circuit and for some reason I can't get my transformer to do ANYTHING! Even setting it up as a plain old Joule Thief doesn't work very well. I don't know what is wrong with it (or me). Soooo--- I decided to just use my boxed up SJR 2.0 and see what happens if I use it for electrolysis. It makes bubbles off just one electrode!! It was very interesting to look at. How can that be???? Guys I don't mean little tiny bubbles on one electrode and lots of bubbles on the other. I mean ALL the bubbles were coming off one electrode. How can that be?

@PB
Your explanation of how this device is putting out a lopsided pulse might account for the interesting effect. I didn't try to burn the bubbles but I imagine that they do. Could we have stumbled on a sort of Stan Meyer thing?

Lidmotor

[Peanutbutter29]

@physicsprof, Ya I can go ahead and test one of these on A/C. It will be a minute as I'll finish the MC first. I'll also need to get a newer Kill-a-watt that reads decimals. Of course, the one bulb I've gutted has been modified; I can tear apart the second bulb (of the 3 I have) for this test.

EDIT: also I guess I did a quick google to see what the web says regarding FWBR. Here's the first I found: Full Wave Bridge Rectifier
"Efficiency of the half wave rectifier will be about 40.6%." and "The efficiency of a full wave rectifier is about 81.2 %, twice the efficiency of a half wave rectifier."

And here's another page similar: Full Wave Rectifier
"The maximum efficiency of a Full Wave Rectifier is 81.2%."

@Lidmotor, ya if you run straight to LED's (with one string) it's like a HWBR. I pointed out in a real early video with JT's and a seconary; that the output is stronger in one direction than the other (which seems to make sense from DC start). I had noted that opposing strings would have one string light, but not the other. Possibly similar here to the recent electrolysis and "one leg" getting bubbles. E.G we may have 100v in one "direction" (collapse) but 50v in the other (rise).
With basic pulsing of LED's yes mfg's and labs have done some research with this. Actually most drivers vary from DC to PWM for dimming. So, in all technicality, the LED's just get a lower duty; which dims. The most I've seen is statements that high frequency CC SMPS with PWM can be more efficient. There aren't any drivers currently doing this; as I hoped to apply this to Marine lighting a few years back. Been just waiting for one to hit the market.......still.
I would assume that highest efficiency will come from FW rectification as opposed to HW though.

Finally, thinking about it and on a side. LED's behave rather variable to a circuit in terms of resistance and capacitance. These being most greatly variable during the conduction range. Here though is why (from an early and trivial LED and sunlight video) I placed electrolytic caps to store and build charge from 2 leds; rather than them "bleeding" the energy between "themselves". (showed 2 LED's @2v in the sun).
This applies with JR's IF we run straight to the LED rather than a rectifier or switching diode (which behaves, more in an avalanche fashion). Yes, we pick up some loss through voltage drop of diode; however we avoid possible loss from variable conduction of the LED during active voltage ranges.
E.G- a (X)wbr / filter will have a more "even" impedance to the SJR secondary windings; whereas direct to LED's will vary the impedance. The varying impedance results, most notably, with the circuits' operational frequency, attempting to vary. This of course cannot happen (to a great degree) as the "time" where this occurs is small, as well as the delta of the variation; as such, power factor will essentially take the hit.
To drag an old analogy up about a "Cat chasing its' tail" may help visualize this. If we relate the cats' head to a secondary. Then we consider the Tail of the cat a primary (yup tail). Now, the load impedance of the circuit becomes (with SJR) the overall length of the cat including tail (e.g. diameter of chasing revolution), so frequency. This "length" is set at the vary instant our cat begins chasing it's tail. Once this "cycle" has been set into motion (field collapse) and the diameter of rotation for the chase has begun; any change during this cycle would only place the tail farther away, by shortening overall length (eg power factor suffers "during cycle"). A note here, PF-1 would be if the cat head and tail were to meet. Lol with cat.

Thanks
PB

EDIT2: Uhh ya, I won't be sending the China bulb off to the lab; just got word back and OMG!

"I finally heard from my contact and was informed that a system is available for my use. Given the height of the lamp, we may need some custom baffling for the measurement system, but this is covered in the price of testing. Cost is generally half day lab time, $1400 and we can do several lamps if needed. Let me know I this is acceptable and I'll schedule a time to do the test.


Alan
Light Test Labs"

Uhhh, ya....NOT

[Slider2732]

@Jonny - i'll need to make a vid at some point. Findings include....
You can trigger the transistor by holding the Base connection lead in your hand !
Connecting the lead to a metal block like an old PC heatsink, will show different power levels to the neon, based on changing feedback. Move the metal block near to the MOT and the bulb will glow brighter.
The output will partially power up a 2W LOA mains LED bulb (about 30% on).
It will power through the neon, which lights and onward to the mains bulb without issue.
The circuit will dimly light the neon over 1 wire.
Taking the normally power rail connected lead of the output load (LED bulb, neon etc) and bringing it near to the Negative rail lead, will form a spark gap The spark gap fires at about 4Hz, short and sharp at about 2mm and the bulb will flicker as it does so.
I've seen the electrolysis on one leg of a small ceramic capacitor, but I don't think I have the salt solution right. It's sea salt and I mixed at about 1 part salt to 10 water ratio.