Gray Tube Replication

[Ghst]

Well Ghst, i don't know but it seems that you are just discharging the capacitor into the coils, making them jump.
That has got nothing to do with the Gray tube.
I'm sure it will do that without the tube too.

M.

Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it. That said, would you believe that its hard to replicate a capacitor discharge motor without charging a capacitor? I could have spent countless hours trying to repel two coils from each other without the capacitor, but, well after all it is a capacitor discharge motor. You should try, hooking the ignition coil straight to the capacitor. I,ll tell you what will happen. Most likely you will puncture the cap, and if you connect two coils to the cap and try to discharge, the HV will just course through the cap and through the coils, most likely burning the coils if they are not prepared well. Might I say, that it takes a large amount of power to launch a coil as I did. But, the coils themselves do not consume much, if any of the energy, that instantly surges through the coils, magnitizing them, causing the repulsion. Most of the discharge energy will go to the tube creating a bright flash of plasma. You have to agree, that it takes magnetizing the coils to produce the repelling force as I have demonstrated. Now, its well known that the collapsing field in the coils will produce a Back Spike, if you will, that is equal to the energy that created the original field. So now I have most or all the energy used to repel the coils going into the tube, plus a large spike from the collapsing field of the coils. I'm still a long way from Grey's system, but I think I'm gaining in knowledge on how his system worked.

[Jbignes5]

maybe...

Ghst You have done excellent for a start. But at some time you have to start going in the direction of Gray and find out why his tube worked the way it did. You have a tube cap and coils just like Gray did. The only thing you don't have is the frequency he used and the carbon<-device Gray used. The reason it probably didn't work is that Gray knew something about resonance and it triggering an event that gave much more out then in. The R is very important and as we all know when you add it in that it would change the way the tube operated both in frequency and spacing.
Once you have a system that can resonate it should be very easy to command it to produce the event at will much like Gray did. How many times a second would you need a cap to charge then discharge to run a motor? even with a cap on every coil set you would still need to charge, discharge way to many times per second with your setup. Gray was definetly using another form of electricity to safely carge discharge a large cap in less time without blowing it up. You have a close simulation but it isn't quite there. Don't let my comments disuade you from experimenting but it wont get you anywhere unless you try to reproduce the effect, witch I think has more to do with resonance of the whole circuit and not just one piece of the circuit. having all the pieces and tunning your circuit to operate with resonance should get you to where you want to be and even with smaller coils I bet you could launch them thru your ceiling without even trying to do that.

[antena]

red event

Hallo
I tryed my tube and I got red event. Aaron had green event, Ghst white and I got red. It is possible ? I used about 6,5kV, then my capacitors destoryed including diodes )) I have to buy some good new one...
Have fun
Antena

[Marcoz]

Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it. That said, would you believe that its hard to replicate a capacitor discharge motor without charging a capacitor? I could have spent countless hours trying to repel two coils from each other without the capacitor, but, well after all it is a capacitor discharge motor. You should try, hooking the ignition coil straight to the capacitor. I,ll tell you what will happen. Most likely you will puncture the cap, and if you connect two coils to the cap and try to discharge, the HV will just course through the cap and through the coils, most likely burning the coils if they are not prepared well. Might I say, that it takes a large amount of power to launch a coil as I did. But, the coils themselves do not consume much, if any of the energy, that instantly surges through the coils, magnitizing them, causing the repulsion. Most of the discharge energy will go to the tube creating a bright flash of plasma. You have to agree, that it takes magnetizing the coils to produce the repelling force as I have demonstrated. Now, its well known that the collapsing field in the coils will produce a Back Spike, if you will, that is equal to the energy that created the original field. So now I have most or all the energy used to repel the coils going into the tube, plus a large spike from the collapsing field of the coils. I'm still a long way from Grey's system, but I think I'm gaining in knowledge on how his system worked.

All is fine, i just posted what i believe is happening.
As you might know any type of back flow is unwanted it the tube itself.
This is because it will produce oscillation, which in turns leaks energy by capacitive means, to the grid, not good.
Simply said, this transferres hot electricity to the grids, something you dont want bacuse a 5000 volt discharge can hurt a lot, if it not proves to be deadly.
So the blast has to be in one direction only, but you are correct the inductive kickback is routed into another cap or battery for overall system performance and effeciency.

I still do not understand your side electrode and the visible sparks.
Ignition coils are not good at the production of high voltage DC.
Possibly you have high voltage on all electrodes due to the capacitive effect i just mentioned above.

I am also working on my tube and i am planning to do a high voltage noise test.
This is to see if there will be any sparks from the center anode to the grid when fed serious power.
If so it means the electrodes are too close to each other and i have to space them some more.

Anyway here's a pic:

Marcoz

[Ghst]

Bigness5, Thats great! I guess I should stop where I'm at and wait till someone shows me what to do next.

[Ghst]

Hallo
I tryed my tube and I got red event. Aaron had green event, Ghst white and I got red. It is possible ? I used about 6,5kV, then my capacitors destoryed including diodes )) I have to buy some good new one...
Have fun
Antena

Antena, glad you got a discharge! Building the devices by your self and actually having it to discharge or produce any event at all is very encouraging and satisfying isn't it? Once you experience this, its hard to stop. Have fun, above all be safe!

[Electrotek]

Venetian Blind Grids

Hey Tek, where you been? I thought I'd also mention that the brightness of the discharge doesn't change when launching the coils. All earlier attempts to pop a coil caused the discharge within the tube to diminish considerable. But now it's as if there is no real power loss energizing the coils. The discharge still looks the same as without the coils. I gotta get a scope!

Hi Buddy. Sorry I haven't been posting lately, but I've been tied up with my mechanical project. And I have been watching the forum every day.

Glad to see all the great progress you've been making! Looks like you're getting close. If your discharge isn't diminishing that means you should be able to transfer the energy to another cap. Sort of like Gray said he was doing, bouncing the energy from one cap to another.

Here's a picture I've been thinking about for some time:



Yfrog - croppedgray027bhu0.jpg - Uploaded by Inertiatek

As short as each CSET is, the length must be related to the pulse duration. So, for more energy the grids would need to be thicker, or more of them, rather than longer. With this in mind, I took a Tube I made back in '02 and cut it down, thinking I'll use the shorter piece:



Yfrog - phot094.jpg - Uploaded by Inertiatek

The other thing I was thinking is that Gray's Tube looks like it's set up for a multi gap discharge on the end, since the grids are close together and there's dielectric at key places. After working with my Gradient Plate this is the first thing I thought of when I saw his picture.

The grids in my Tube aren't so close together so I'll try putting chunks of Gradient Plates where he has the dielectric. With my Plate, I also found out that rather than have one electrode on each end, I can put both electrodes on the same end and the Puff Spark will be pulled along the surface of the Plate, as long as the capacitor is connected to another electrode on the far end, with this wire connected - through a resister - to one of the main arc electrodes at the starting end.

So I'll put the spark gap just outside the end of the grids. The cap will connect to the outer grid and also to a chunk of carbon or a piece of nichrome wire going to the electrode farthest from the grids. Then, if the Puff Spark goes out along the end of the grids, the grids may act like a Venetian Blind plasma energy extractor.

Like I said, I'm pretty much tied up right now, so it may be a few days before I can do a test. But that's what I'm working towards.

[Jbignes5]

Don't stop...

hey you know what I'll stop then because you don't seem to take any advice without thinking that someone is telling you to not do what you are doing. Thats ok I'll go else where and help other people then. Good luck....

[Ghst]

hey you know what I'll stop then because you don't seem to take any advice without thinking that someone is telling you to not do what you are doing. Thats ok I'll go else where and help other people then. Good luck....

Oh don't go away mad. I can take advise very well. But you have to know from proven experience before it is advise, Other wise it is just speculation. And I have done a lot of speculation myself, No way to prove ones own thoughts until they are tried and either fail or proven fact. When proven fact then one can advise. I stated earlier that I have used the carbon, as Grey did. I am still using carbon as the LV rod. I haven't, in my test. seen carbon to be a influencing factor in the discharge or have it to create the electron cascade that the tube is susposed to produce. I have noticed in my own tests the addition of the carbon on the LV electrode allows you the ablity to increase the discharge time and to decrease it.(to a extent) As for resonance, these are only tests and it will be difficult to setup a resonance circuit what with the single coil setup as my demonstration. Heck I can't let the system top off the cap because it isn't self aligning. These are single shot firings and the cap is being charged from 0 V in each of the vids. (I carefully discharge the remaining voltage after each firing, before attempting to reset the coils.) If you can resonate the circuit then by all means go for it. I just ain't there yet.

[Ghst]

Rave154, Here is a descriptive picture of "the Jar" I hope this helps.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9924/thejar.jpg

[Jbignes5]

Last statement.

Ghst I applaude your effort but this is exactly what you told us "Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it."
Unfortunately you cannot try to replicate Grays proceedure without actually using the tube he used under the cicuit he used. That would be like trying to replicate making a nuclear bomb by only looking at pictures of said bomb. Don't get me wrong I think you have gone in the right direction But maybe took a left when you should have stayed with it. when you loose components because they don't make sense to you or the effect isn't apparent then you loose the capability to replicate the end result.
You were the one who got mad I just won't try to help you get back on track if you say things like "Bigness5, Thats great! I guess I should stop where I'm at and wait till someone shows me what to do next." And then act like I'm the one mad. Like I said good luck in your Gray tube like device but it is not the gray tube at all and that is plainly true. Why post in the Gray tube replication post if you are not trying to replicate the tube? By the way what do you think an lcr cicuit like you have is for? This isn't a guess from me it is a resonant cicuit plain and simple. How does one resonate the circuit maybe you should do some research and find out how. I'll point you in the right direction frequency has a lot to do with it.
I won't bother posting here again since you obviosly are not trying to replicate the tube, only on looks. Yes your tube looks simular but thats where the simularities stop.
Why are you posting in this forum if you are not trying to get input from others then? Why not just you tube the videos and just do what you are doing? Why involve others.
I have a post about the whole system Gray was using and explains about resonance and that system.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/showthread.php?t=4358

There is a link to RE and OU theory and also about the rotoverter. In the begining of the pdf is a good bit about Gray and his ema motor and what the theory is behind all that. It might help you to understand what I have been trying to tell you. Then again maybe you won't but I throw it up there in any case.

[Aaron]

green color

Hallo
I tryed my tube and I got red event. Aaron had green event, Ghst white and I got red. It is possible ? I used about 6,5kV, then my capacitors destoryed including diodes )) I have to buy some good new one...
Have fun
Antena

If you download Ghst's vid and do a frame by frame in a good program, you'll see the blast has the green color.

[Aaron]

comments

Ghst,

What you have done is 100% identical in concept to what I have showed over and over. Congratulations but it appears nobody is able to recognize this fact and you never responded to me in this thread in my responses to you in the past about what you were trying to do.

I gave the parameters required for the effect and you are sticking to it even if you have your cap charged through the LV rod. It doesn't matter.

To get what you showed, you don't even need the tube and you don't need the grids, you only need 3 simple points spaced as you described, which is what I have also described multiple times. With the tube, it may or may not be stronger but is certainly not required to do it.

If you want to see what your cap is really doing, you must scope the discharge time. That will tell you everything you need to know.

You may think you need magnetizing "current" to charge those coils but keep in mind, there is more than one type of current that can charge a coil with a magnetic field. One is hot and one is cold. One is "electron" current and one is a pure magnetic current.

If you look at a scope shot, you'll know what you have.

[Ghst]

Ghst I applaude your effort but this is exactly what you told us "Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it."
Unfortunately you cannot try to replicate Grays proceedure without actually using the tube he used under the cicuit he used. That would be like trying to replicate making a nuclear bomb by only looking at pictures of said bomb. Don't get me wrong I think you have gone in the right direction But maybe took a left when you should have stayed with it. when you loose components because they don't make sense to you or the effect isn't apparent then you loose the capability to replicate the end result.
You were the one who got mad I just won't try to help you get back on track if you say things like "Bigness5, Thats great! I guess I should stop where I'm at and wait till someone shows me what to do next." And then act like I'm the one mad. Like I said good luck in your Gray tube like device but it is not the gray tube at all and that is plainly true. Why post in the Gray tube replication post if you are not trying to replicate the tube? By the way what do you think an lcr cicuit like you have is for? This isn't a guess from me it is a resonant cicuit plain and simple. How does one resonate the circuit maybe you should do some research and find out how. I'll point you in the right direction frequency has a lot to do with it.
I won't bother posting here again since you obviosly are not trying to replicate the tube, only on looks. Yes your tube looks simular but thats where the simularities stop.
Why are you posting in this forum if you are not trying to get input from others then? Why not just you tube the videos and just do what you are doing? Why involve others.
I have a post about the whole system Gray was using and explains about resonance and that system.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/showthread.php?t=4358

There is a link to RE and OU theory and also about the rotoverter. In the begining of the pdf is a good bit about Gray and his ema motor and what the theory is behind all that. It might help you to understand what I have been trying to tell you. Then again maybe you won't but I throw it up there in any case.

Thanks for telling me how you want me to conduct my experiments. But I think I will do my thing, my own way, at my own pace. Its pretty simple, show me proof of any tube build that you are currently on, that is any where near my progress, or shutup. I don't need or want your advice. If you have the perfect system then my work is done here. Put up or shutup.

[Marcoz]

I will do my thing, my own way, at my own pace.

This is the correct way to discover new things.
Don't let anyone distract you or tell you what to do.

It is also the only way to develope a certain "skill" in doing what you do and you will notice you are getting better, and better too
Eventually you will make it more perfect, good looking, and more effecient.

I have seen alot of theory's about the Gray tube and there was not a single one that fitted my own view on this device.
They all presented some sort of "this is how it works" and "that is how it works" but none of them seem to be correct.

Tesla used the brute force methode where he discharged a bank of high voltage capacitors into two turns of big wire, and according to Tesla, these radiations came out of the wire perpendiculair to the flow, on the edge of vaporizing the wire.

Gray on the other hand did not use the brute force methode, he created a delicate environment, and invited the effect to happen.
Thats a whole diffrent story...but concerning the same effect.
Gray's device looks more like a fine tuned machine compared to Tesla's brute force methode, although Tesla eventually found how to use beter ways to control his discharges.
Pherhaps this is also the reason why so many people have limited sucess, they are all using the brute force methode, because they simply do not know how to create this delicate environment Gray used.

In a normal vacuum tube, electrons are boiled off the hot cathode similar to water molecules escaping from boiling water.
This creates what is called the "electron cloud" and it is what makes the tube work, the electron flow can be controlled by a small voltage on the grid and the electrons are accellerated by the high voltage charge on the plate.

In essence, there is a steam (pressure) analogy, but in the capacitor discharge action it is cold and far more violent then on a normal neutral hot cathode in a vacuum tube.
When ultra high speed electrons hit a metal surface, their impact causes the metal to release even more electrons, this is called secondary emission.
When extreme voltages are used (+40Kv and up) it will also give rise to X-rays and other phenomena, and this is what Philco Farnsworth discoverd in his cold cathode multipactor tubes which led him to develope his fusor.

Anyway, back to the ultra fast electron impact,
When this happens, at this exact moment due to the secondary emission, for a fraction of a second, the metal's charge differs from the environmental charge, the charge all things are sitting in and are charged to, and nature will restore the balance by equalizing the charges again.
Basically it will just fill up the hole again, so yes we create a so called "sink" in nature's energy reservoir, And then we hit it again and again....
If you have studied Tesla's work this is what he describes what happens when the body is struck and it will either charge up(more positive), or give up it's charge (more negative) with respect to the environmental potential.(even Tesla wasn't really sure if it was positive or negative).

I do not want to make this post too long, so more to come...

Marcoz.