Back EMF Test

[EgmQC]

Hi,

Anybody know why the Back EMF voltage is higher than the forward voltage ? i think the ratio should be at max 1:1 no ?

Here is a interesting link from a old experiment from Brown University Physic department.

Back emf

Best Regards,
Eric

[CitizenDC]

Hi,

Anybody know why the Back EMF voltage is higher than the forward voltage ? i think the ratio should be at max 1:1 no ?

Here is a interesting link from a old experiment from Brown University Physic department.

Back emf

Best Regards,
Eric

Hi EgmQC,

The EMF-Spike voltage ratio is mainly relative to the number of windings in the coil and the size of coil wires. Fine wires with hundreds of windings will produce very high voltage (low current) EMF-Spikes.

If you look at a typical car ignition coil, it takes say 12 volts in the first coil and passes the backspike to the secondary coil which leads to your ignition plug and makes the bigger spark. This ratio is 1:100 on standard ign-coils. So 12 volts become 1200 volts.

Here is a question for you , why is there a backspike at all?

cheers

[Radiant-1]

Earth Vortex...

@ EgmQC and CitizenDC



That is a great question that I have thought about for a long time. Let me explain how I see it.
First, lets think about what certain people are saying about BEMF(back electro motive force) or CEMF(counter electro motive force) versus these large collapsing spikes. I have been told many times not to call this phenomena CEMF or BEMF because that is the opposition to current flow that is always present in DC motors and in fact all inductive loads. It is seen as a steady back push against your inflow of electrons. These collapses are different says these people.
To that I say "rubbish"...let me delve deeper into my theory. Now imagine that you are pushing electrons through a coil...well as we all know, that creates a magnetic field around the wire, and since the wire is spiraling up the magnetic spin around the wire couples to all the other wires creating one large magnetic spin.
Ok, now to explain CEMF/BEMF...you must realize that we live on a giant magnet...and it's magnetic field is ENORMOUS...Now you also have to realize that field is the established "norm"...and anytime we create a field with a coil we are doing work against that field. That is the reason there is always an "opposition" to our electron flow...because that field is always trying to get back to "norm".
Imagine it like this...as we fill up the coil and the magnetic field rises..it is much like a balloon. Meaning there is a "pressure" pushing on all sides of it, that is the constant BEMF...now what happens when you stop blowing in the balloon and remove your lips??? A sudden rush of air comes out at a higher pressure/velocity then you filled it up with. The ratio is always equal though (there is not more air...it's just moving faster)...it's the same with these collapses. In fact, if you narrow the outlet of a balloon the pressure is higher...well, if you narrow the wire you get the same effect. It's at a higher voltage, but the"moment" is much shorter then it took to fill it. Hence the spikes...it's all an balancing game..imagine a sliding scale...for every 1, you get 1 out...just time altered
So all in all...I believe that a type of magnetic pressure is the cause. This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our gravity/magnetic field (I believe the two are intimately linked, possibly caused by a vortex through our earth)
So, yep that's my take on it...hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense

[CitizenDC]

@ EgmQC and CitizenDC



That is a great question that I have thought about for a long time. Let me explain how I see it.
First, lets think about what certain people are saying about BEMF(back electro motive force) or CEMF(counter electro motive force) versus these large collapsing spikes. I have been told many times not to call this phenomena CEMF or BEMF because that is the opposition to current flow that is always present in DC motors and in fact all inductive loads. It is seen as a steady back push against your inflow of electrons. These collapses are different says these people.
To that I say "rubbish"...let me delve deeper into my theory. Now imagine that you are pushing electrons through a coil...well as we all know, that creates a magnetic field around the wire, and since the wire is spiraling up the magnetic spin around the wire couples to all the other wires creating one large magnetic spin.
Ok, now to explain CEMF/BEMF...you must realize that we live on a giant magnet...and it's magnetic field is ENORMOUS...Now you also have to realize that field is the established "norm"...and anytime we create a field with a coil we are doing work against that field. That is the reason there is always an "opposition" to our electron flow...because that field is always trying to get back to "norm".
Imagine it like this...as we fill up the coil and the magnetic field rises..it is much like a balloon. Meaning there is a "pressure" pushing on all sides of it, that is the constant BEMF...now what happens when you stop blowing in the balloon and remove your lips??? A sudden rush of air comes out at a higher pressure/velocity then you filled it up with. The ratio is always equal though (there is not more air...it's just moving faster)...it's the same with these collapses. In fact, if you narrow the outlet of a balloon the pressure is higher...well, if you narrow the wire you get the same effect. It's at a higher voltage, but the"moment" is much shorter then it took to fill it. Hence the spikes...it's all an balancing game..imagine a sliding scale...for every 1, you get 1 out...just time altered
So all in all...I believe that a type of magnetic pressure is the cause. This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our gravity/magnetic field (I believe the two are intimately linked, possibly caused by a vortex through our earth)
So, yep that's my take on it...hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense

Hi Radiant,

>> hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense
Your explanation makes sense to me. Actually in many ways its better than my own theory.

>> This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our
>> gravity/magnetic field
Okay, how about using permanent magnets to simulate earth's gravity and see how the coil spikes behave when we put it within the "artificial" magnetic field?
Actually I can already answer this. Over the weekend I learnt how to make my Imhotep Fan self oscillate, when oscillating, If I adjusted the rotor which contains 4 magnets in opposition around the 4 coils, if I adjusted the rotor 45-90 degrees my output voltage would increase and the stress on the coil could be heard to increase preportionally. Using your theory then I can say that I was adding additional stress to the coils by bringing permanent magnets into a repulsion configuration around the coil.
(I'll test this again tonight and note if the resitance increases too by monitoring current draw.)


Then this makes me think. High voltage power must have more potential for a shorter period of time VS regular power which has a lower potential for a longer period of time.
So then essentially high voltage is voltage thats travelling faster than regular voltage which means HV is basically time compressed regular voltage.
Very interesting!

Radiant, okay, exploring your theory. Do you rely on the North and South pole as the mangets that are causing the coil pressure? Or do you think an inner-earth and outer-earth field is responsible?

Looking forward to your response!

[Radiant-1]

@ CitizenDC

Hi Radiant,

>> hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense
Your explanation makes sense to me. Actually in many ways its better than my own theory.

>> This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our
>> gravity/magnetic field
Okay, how about using permanent magnets to simulate earth's gravity and see how the coil spikes behave when we put it within the "artificial" magnetic field?
Actually I can already answer this. Over the weekend I learnt how to make my Imhotep Fan self oscillate, when oscillating, If I adjusted the rotor which contains 4 magnets in opposition around the 4 coils, if I adjusted the rotor 45-90 degrees my output voltage would increase and the stress on the coil could be heard to increase preportionally. Using your theory then I can say that I was adding additional stress to the coils by bringing permanent magnets into a repulsion configuration around the coil.
(I'll test this again tonight and note if the resitance increases too by monitoring current draw.)


Then this makes me think. High voltage power must have more potential for a shorter period of time VS regular power which has a lower potential for a longer period of time.
So then essentially high voltage is voltage thats travelling faster than regular voltage which means HV is basically time compressed regular voltage.
Very interesting!

Radiant, okay, exploring your theory. Do you rely on the North and South pole as the mangets that are causing the coil pressure? Or do you think an inner-earth and outer-earth field is responsible?

Looking forward to your response!

I am glad I could convey it in a means that makes sense

Regarding this...
"Radiant, okay, exploring your theory. Do you rely on the North and South pole as the mangets that are causing the coil pressure? Or do you think an inner-earth and outer-earth field is responsible?"

I don't quite have that worked out yet...I believe it is more like the latter. I believe it's an inward pressure like gravity, possibly is gravity
As the band Live says in Lightning Crashes "...forces pullin' from the center of the earth again"

[CitizenDC]

@ CitizenDC


I am glad I could convey it in a means that makes sense

Regarding this...
"Radiant, okay, exploring your theory. Do you rely on the North and South pole as the mangets that are causing the coil pressure? Or do you think an inner-earth and outer-earth field is responsible?"

I don't quite have that worked out yet...I believe it is more like the latter. I believe it's an inward pressure like gravity, possibly is gravity
As the band Live says in Lightning Crashes "...forces pullin' from the center of the earth again"

Okay.

What you describe as the inward pressure reminds me alot of the nature of the ether which too envelops earth from the outside to within (this is what I've read by non conventional scientists who also attribute gravity as being the force of the ether on matter).

I'll think this over some more.

[EgmQC]

@ Radiant-1 and CitizenDC

Thx for your time to anwser my question and the analogy to the air pressure. I try to isolate each variable of the SSG and i was stuck with the BEMF but now i understand.

Again,a big thx
Eric

[Radiant-1]

Magnets attached to coil!

@ CitizenDC

Hi Radiant,

>> hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense
Your explanation makes sense to me. Actually in many ways its better than my own theory.

>> This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our
>> gravity/magnetic field
Okay, how about using permanent magnets to simulate earth's gravity and see how the coil spikes behave when we put it within the "artificial" magnetic field?
Actually I can already answer this. Over the weekend I learnt how to make my Imhotep Fan self oscillate, when oscillating, If I adjusted the rotor which contains 4 magnets in opposition around the 4 coils, if I adjusted the rotor 45-90 degrees my output voltage would increase and the stress on the coil could be heard to increase preportionally. Using your theory then I can say that I was adding additional stress to the coils by bringing permanent magnets into a repulsion configuration around the coil.
(I'll test this again tonight and note if the resitance increases too by monitoring current draw.)


Then this makes me think. High voltage power must have more potential for a shorter period of time VS regular power which has a lower potential for a longer period of time.
So then essentially high voltage is voltage thats travelling faster than regular voltage which means HV is basically time compressed regular voltage.
Very interesting!

Radiant, okay, exploring your theory. Do you rely on the North and South pole as the mangets that are causing the coil pressure? Or do you think an inner-earth and outer-earth field is responsible?

Looking forward to your response!

I have been doing some research today and stumbled across this guy
Proto Types
Take a look at his prototypes, they use four 1" magnets on the back of the coil like you were saying...He says he gets more energy out!! So, my theory may be correct. His artificial field is to account for his large gains.

[Sephiroth]

@ EgmQC and CitizenDC



That is a great question that I have thought about for a long time. Let me explain how I see it.
First, lets think about what certain people are saying about BEMF(back electro motive force) or CEMF(counter electro motive force) versus these large collapsing spikes. I have been told many times not to call this phenomena CEMF or BEMF because that is the opposition to current flow that is always present in DC motors and in fact all inductive loads. It is seen as a steady back push against your inflow of electrons. These collapses are different says these people.
To that I say "rubbish"...let me delve deeper into my theory. Now imagine that you are pushing electrons through a coil...well as we all know, that creates a magnetic field around the wire, and since the wire is spiraling up the magnetic spin around the wire couples to all the other wires creating one large magnetic spin.
Ok, now to explain CEMF/BEMF...you must realize that we live on a giant magnet...and it's magnetic field is ENORMOUS...Now you also have to realize that field is the established "norm"...and anytime we create a field with a coil we are doing work against that field. That is the reason there is always an "opposition" to our electron flow...because that field is always trying to get back to "norm".
Imagine it like this...as we fill up the coil and the magnetic field rises..it is much like a balloon. Meaning there is a "pressure" pushing on all sides of it, that is the constant BEMF...now what happens when you stop blowing in the balloon and remove your lips??? A sudden rush of air comes out at a higher pressure/velocity then you filled it up with. The ratio is always equal though (there is not more air...it's just moving faster)...it's the same with these collapses. In fact, if you narrow the outlet of a balloon the pressure is higher...well, if you narrow the wire you get the same effect. It's at a higher voltage, but the"moment" is much shorter then it took to fill it. Hence the spikes...it's all an balancing game..imagine a sliding scale...for every 1, you get 1 out...just time altered
So all in all...I believe that a type of magnetic pressure is the cause. This could be proven/disproven by taking a BEMF coil up out of our gravity/magnetic field (I believe the two are intimately linked, possibly caused by a vortex through our earth)
So, yep that's my take on it...hope I didn't ramble and that it made sense

What you say is essentially correct though I have a slightly different understanding.

As you said back emf is the pressure resisting the flow of current during the build up of the electromagnetic field. The ballon analogy is excellent! But the pressure pushing against it isn't the earth's magnetic field. Despite the incredible size of the field it is also incredibly weak.

The pressure is the surrounding chaotic aether pushing against the aether that is being organised by the magetic field!

But the reason why back emf is an inaccurate term for the flyback voltage is that Back EMF (or more accuratly counter emf in this example) is by definition the force resisting the flow of current (lowering the effective voltage across the coil). It is a force opposing another force, thus BACK EMF. Once we take away the force it is opposing it is simply EMF and that is the flyback voltage. Take away the opposing force (the input current) and the chaotic aether surrounding the magnetic field implodes forcing the aetheric potential we organised with the magnetic field into the batteries.

Not a complete model but in laymen's terms that what I see happening Perhaps Aaron would like to jump in as his understanding far surpasses my own!

[Radiant-1]

Induced orginization

@ Sepiroth

What you say is essentially correct though I have a slightly different understanding.

As you said back emf is the pressure resisting the flow of current during the build up of the electromagnetic field. The ballon analogy is excellent! But the pressure pushing against it isn't the earth's magnetic field. Despite the incredible size of the field it is also incredibly weak.

The pressure is the surrounding chaotic aether pushing against the aether that is being organised by the magetic field!

But the reason why back emf is an inaccurate term for the flyback voltage is that Back EMF (or more accuratly counter emf in this example) is by definition the force resisting the flow of current (lowering the effective voltage across the coil). It is a force opposing another force, thus BACK EMF. Once we take away the force it is opposing it is simply EMF and that is the flyback voltage. Take away the opposing force (the input current) and the chaotic aether surrounding the magnetic field implodes forcing the aetheric potential we organised with the magnetic field into the batteries.

Not a complete model but in laymen's terms that what I see happening Perhaps Aaron would like to jump in as his understanding far surpasses my own!

I would have to disagree here...see once we create a magnetic field what we have done is organized the aether into a one way flow, via the electron spin all accumulating in the same rotational direction. There by polarizing the aether and spinning it through the coil spiral (gear wise spin)...See, the Earth is doing the same thing..with the major flow of "Universal or Aetheric" energy flowing though it and out one of the poles...(In one pole, out the other).
Furthermore, we perceive it as a "weak" field do to our proximity from the epicenter (strongest point) and our always being inside of it (imagine perception of a speeding car, inside you perceive yourself not moving and the land is moving under you...but an onlooker sees you speeding by...it's kinda like that)...Here's another point, if we were to walk only say, 2-3 feet from a super magnet (perceived as a strong magnet) it's effect on say a compass needle is not seen. That's because the amount of Aether flowing through that magnet compared to the Earth is minuscule. There for the localized field/reorientation of the aether is is just that LOCALIZED...so, it is rectified every time the coil is shut off (collapsed back to "norm" or ground state, the field reversal is due to the nature of a collapse). In essence we are modulating the Earths field in a localized environment. The aether is chaotic, but the surrounding magnetic medium is not chaotic, it is oriented by the earth's field lines (I believe that magnetism field effects are neutrinos) I think the aether may be manipulated by it, but, I don't think it's caused by aether. Let me state one more point...If it were the "chaotic aether"...well it would be chaotic...a chaotic event could not produce such an opposite event so sharply...I would say possibly the aether could be polarized...and that opposite aetheric field could be the cause...but that doesn't make sense either...because a magnetic field is neutral, sure you have north/south...but that's because of the unidirectional flow...much like White vs. Black hole...one end sucks aether in, one end spits it out. So, whatever the pressure is, we can all agree that it's pushing in on it like atmospheric pressure. Who knows, it may be atmospheric pressure, because, as Tesla did state, that potential is a gas, and we are filling up a coil much like a balloon...so again...I believe this to be driven by gravity, or possible a pressurized aetheric or neutrino bubble (called earth's magnetosphere)...who knows, but, we can all agree on how it behaves, we will figure out the exact cause in due time. Thanks for your input...I would like further feedback, this issue interests me greatly...I would love for someone well versed in theory such as Aaron, or Peter to comment also.

[boguslaw]

Good theory- we are closer to Hopi prophecy

@ Sepiroth



I would have to disagree here...see once we create a magnetic field what we have done is organized the aether into a one way flow, via the electron spin all accumulating in the same rotational direction. There by polarizing the aether and spinning it through the coil spiral (gear wise spin)...See, the Earth is doing the same thing..with the major flow of "Universal or Aetheric" energy flowing though it and out one of the poles...(In one pole, out the other).
Furthermore, we perceive it as a "weak" field do to our proximity from the epicenter (strongest point) and our always being inside of it (imagine perception of a speeding car, inside you perceive yourself not moving and the land is moving under you...but an onlooker sees you speeding by...it's kinda like that)...Here's another point, if we were to walk only say, 2-3 feet from a super magnet (perceived as a strong magnet) it's effect on say a compass needle is not seen. That's because the amount of Aether flowing through that magnet compared to the Earth is minuscule. There for the localized field/reorientation of the aether is is just that LOCALIZED...so, it is rectified every time the coil is shut off (collapsed back to "norm" or ground state, the field reversal is due to the nature of a collapse). In essence we are modulating the Earths field in a localized environment. The aether is chaotic, but the surrounding magnetic medium is not chaotic, it is oriented by the earth's field lines (I believe that magnetism field effects are neutrinos) I think the aether may be manipulated by it, but, I don't think it's caused by aether. Let me state one more point...If it were the "chaotic aether"...well it would be chaotic...a chaotic event could not produce such an opposite event so sharply...I would say possibly the aether could be polarized...and that opposite aetheric field could be the cause...but that doesn't make sense either...because a magnetic field is neutral, sure you have north/south...but that's because of the unidirectional flow...much like White vs. Black hole...one end sucks aether in, one end spits it out. So, whatever the pressure is, we can all agree that it's pushing in on it like atmospheric pressure. Who knows, it may be atmospheric pressure, because, as Tesla did state, that potential is a gas, and we are filling up a coil much like a balloon...so again...I believe this to be driven by gravity, or possible a pressurized aetheric or neutrino bubble (called earth's magnetosphere)...who knows, but, we can all agree on how it behaves, we will figure out the exact cause in due time. Thanks for your input...I would like further feedback, this issue interests me greatly...I would love for someone well versed in theory such as Aaron, or Peter to comment also.

I think that the key for every magnetic field is a flow. It is a steady state flow like waterfall except probably this flow is bidirectional.Magnetic particles are very small and very fast but in fact have some inertia and that may be a key for flyback spike.Balloon example is good, external magnetic field is trying to refill empty space after removing internal magnetic field but due to inertia that effect generate spike like a sea wave filling the empty space near coast.

I don't believe in aether. It's all Earth magnetic field responsible for radiant and aetheric phenomena.

[patmac]

High voltage, many turns on coils = More Efficient

I'm charging a brand new Lead Acid batt 4ampH x 12 volts. With a Bedini SG

Bedini SG has 350 turns on coil aprox. 36 hours after, rotor stop, then moving connections and run it on again.

6 hours after rotor was stoping again, then voltmeter reads 12.54 volts on batt while charging, I disconnected the motor for 10 minutes and get it ON again. Ever, ever when batt reach 12.54 volts rotor go to stop.

My Bedini SG was working with 12 volts from a old PC power supply, this PC power supply gives 24 volts by using -12 volts and +12 volts. I reconnected the Bedini with 24 volts and get run again, speed was impressive, then I get up the POT to 2X ohm, obviusly 2X vollts, 2X ohm on transistor's BASE.

It's charging beautyfully, BATT goes on 12.62 volts and motor draws the same amperage than it was on 12 volts.

This is logic but was hard to understand it for me. Look this:

Back EMF is equal to Source Voltage X Coil Turns. Then my Bedini SG has little turns, is hard charge batt to 12 volts using 12 volts on source.

BASE transistor's resistors was 533 ohm with 12 volts
Now is 1066 ohm with 24 volts as source supply.

Current on Base is equal because I=R/V. But Back EMF is 2X, then batt is charging beautifully. Bearden's theory says that only need upper potential for restore the potential on Battery.

[EgmQC]

I'm charging a brand new Lead Acid batt 4ampH x 12 volts. With a Bedini SG

Bedini SG has 350 turns on coil aprox. 36 hours after, rotor stop, then moving connections and run it on again.

6 hours after rotor was stoping again, then voltmeter reads 12.54 volts on batt while charging, I disconnected the motor for 10 minutes and get it ON again. Ever, ever when batt reach 12.54 volts rotor go to stop.

My Bedini SG was working with 12 volts from a old PC power supply, this PC power supply gives 24 volts by using -12 volts and +12 volts. I reconnected the Bedini with 24 volts and get run again, speed was impressive, then I get up the POT to 2X ohm, obviusly 2X vollts, 2X ohm on transistor's BASE.

It's charging beautyfully, BATT goes on 12.62 volts and motor draws the same amperage than it was on 12 volts.

This is logic but was hard to understand it for me. Look this:

Back EMF is equal to Source Voltage X Coil Turns. Then my Bedini SG has little turns, is hard charge batt to 12 volts using 12 volts on source.

BASE transistor's resistors was 533 ohm with 12 volts
Now is 1066 ohm with 24 volts as source supply.

Current on Base is equal because I=R/V. But Back EMF is 2X, then batt is charging beautifully. Bearden's theory says that only need upper potential for restore the potential on Battery.

Hi Patmac,
i dont understand how the BEMF can be correlated to Source voltage X Coil turn , ex : 12V X 2000 (2k turn) = 24Kv and the spool diameter can be 1/2 inch or 3 feet , so the Ohm per feet will affect the coil too. Can you explain a bit more about your ratio because i realy dont understand.

p.s I=V/R
Best Regards,
Eric

[patmac]

Hi Patmac,
i dont understand how the BEMF can be correlated to Source voltage X Coil turn , ex : 12V X 2000 (2k turn) = 24Kv and the spool diameter can be 1/2 inch or 3 feet , so the Ohm per feet will affect the coil too. Can you explain a bit more about your ratio because i realy dont understand.

p.s I=V/R
Best Regards,
Eric

That I said it, to demonstrated that if you put more turns on your Bedini without another change will give it more HV as Back EMF, really Back EMF is relationated with impendance on coil, not with turns directally, but technically speaking when you make your coil, more turns is more impendance obviouslly if you use the same AWG wire. I was referring me that if I put more turns on my same Bedini SG, I will get higher Back EMF, then logically amp draws get low but can charge a battery much better.

Look the CitizenDC's post:
... "This ratio is 1:100 on standard ign-coils. So 12 volts become 1200 volts."....

Technically speaking that ratio is in OHM, because if you have a coil with primary one turn and secondary one hundred turns both with same AWG, then OHM ratio is 1:100. Size core or material core is proportional to inductance because you can give the same turns but need more wire (Henry) is the time that spend to saturate the core, after the core is saturated circuit is like close circuit and amp drawing is proportional to cal wire and length wire. You can search the web to get that technical data and know the impendance of your coil. Like coil spend some time to get saturated, more core is more time, (seamless to capacitors, but please no confuse them) Back EMF time is higher too.

[EgmQC]

That I said it, to demonstrated that if you put more turns on your Bedini without anothre change will give it more HV as Back EMF, really Back EMF is relationated with impendance on coil, not with turns directally, but technically speaking when you make your coil, more turns is more impendance obviouslly if you use the same AWG wire. I was referring me that if I put more turns on my same Bedini SG, I will get higher Back EMF, then logically amp draws get low but can charge a battery much better.

Look the CitizenDC's post:
... "This ratio is 1:100 on standard ign-coils. So 12 volts become 1200 volts."....

Technically speaking that ratio is in OHM, because if you have a coil with primary one turn and secondary one hundred turns both with same AWG, then OHM ratio is 1:100. Size core or material core is proportional to Henry is the time that spend to saturate the core, after the core is saturated circuit is like close circuit and amp drawing is proportional to cal wire and length wire. You can search the web to get that tecnicall data and knwo the impendance of your coil. Like coil spend some time to get saturated, more core is more time, (seamless to capacitors, but please no confuse them) Back EMF time is higher too.

Thx Patmac, so if i understand that correctly, its Source Voltage X (Coil Ohm) , so for a exemple, if Vs is 12V and the coil have 40 Ohm , the back EMF will be about 480 volt, im right ?

Look the CitizenDC's post:
... "This ratio is 1:100 on standard ign-coils. So 12 volts become 1200 volts."....

Seem like a step up transformer but with the SSG the ratio is 1:1
Best Regards,
Eric