Electric Motor Secrets

[Aaron]

opposing coils wound opposite

if you fire 2 pole at the same time then both magnetic fields would create a cemf in each other. but.. what if only 1 pole fired at a time in series around the loop. with the other coil circuts left open they would only see a voltage out (no closed circut with electrons creating an opposing mag field) so they would not oppose each other. would this satisfy a c shape concept. or are we losing the ability to create torque by doing this?

cool flash tutorial on the motors.

Wouldn't it make sense if 2 coils are opposing 180 that one is wound so north is facing the rotor and the oppositve has south facing the rotor so when they both pulse at the same time the magnetic fields aren't opposing?

[Eric]

hi heres a neat little visual aid showing some existing motor design geomeitry.

http://www.st.com/stonline/products/support/motor/tutorial/motor.swf

this could be useful if you want to learn whats existing and how they might be similar/different to the designs we are discussing. maybe this will help you peter in answering peoples future questions on diferent motor types (like the switched reluctance motor) and where they fall short in design principle. i am curious as it does look remarkably similar (and powerful!!) to what we are after. my minds eye can sort of see how if you fire 2 pole at the same time then both magnetic fields would create a cemf in each other. but.. what if only 1 pole fired at a time in series around the loop. with the other coil circuts left open they would only see a voltage out (no closed circut with electrons creating an opposing mag field) so they would not oppose each other. would this satisfy a c shape concept. or are we losing the ability to create torque by doing this?

do we have an organized means for storing links we might want to refer back to? i can see how things might get messy here as the list gets longer making it dificult for a new comer to catch up to where we left off often times causing them to ask questions that have allready been answered. it would be nice to archive some information in more oranized fashion like whats available in the yahoo groops files/photos/links section.

thanks!
Eric

[Peter Lindemann]

Thank you John and Aaron!

Everybody,

John has graciously posted some short movies on the Bedini Advanced forum showing a simple magnetic attraction motor running with his electrical energy recovery. He also addresses pole shaping, and field biasing, which are advanced ideas that come up when fine tuning some designs. Thank you, John!

Also, thank you Aaron for starting the other threads so discussion here can stay focussed on the magnetic attraction designs.

Peter

[nali2001]

To Lindemann

Hello Peter it is true that you idea is not the same as the variable reluctance motors from the examples. And I for one do like the DVD, love to see someone try to help one other. And the idea of back emf recovery is a very useful one. But like you said there are some details that can't be all explained in a 2.5 hour video. For example, the back emf can only be recovered up to the saturation point of the steel obviously. But in my tests it was necessary to pulse the cores much longer in order to get some useful torque. The Teal patens show very super short pulses due to the commutator. But unless it was some mega capacitor blast I doubt that such a short pulse will be sufficient. So in other words the required pulse in most cases needs to be longer than can be recovered afterwards. These things are vital to solve. And maybe switching to fast materials like Metglass will solve most of them, but it will be out of the budget of most home builders...

Steven

[Peter Lindemann]

Excellent Question!

Hallo Peter I have seen your new design. This indeed would indeed work better maybe. And is more easy to make. But on the other hand we are looking at 'just' a regular Variable- or Switched reluctance motor are we not?
Nothing wrong with that of course, but as far as I see it the Bemf circuit is 'kind of' the only novel thing here. But these variable or switched reluctance drives are somewhat problematic to run and need smart driving circuits that can advance, elongate or retard the pulses on the fly based on system load and speed. Most of them also have a minute 'demagnetization' pulse to help speedup the collapse time of the coil/core section and so allow for higher rpm's. Since 'metal slowness' in flux change can be problematic.

http://www.energie.ch/themen/industrie/antriebe/sr.jpg

Switched Reluctance Drives

http://www.sovereign-publications.co...s/picture1.jpg

http://www.sapiensman.com/ESDictiona...ges/motor1.jpg

SWITCHED-RELUCTANCE MOTOR

SWITCHED RELUCTANCE MOTOR - Google Afbeeldingen Zoekmachine

Regards,
Steven

Steven and Everybody,

As is evident in the links you post, switched reluctance motors can be very powerful and very efficient in conventional terms. The purpose of my DVD is to provoke original thought in the mind of the viewer by showing that even a well understood phenomena like back EMF can be looked at in a fresh way.

I do not claim to have invented anything. What I am proposing is more of a new METHOD of operating these machines, then anything else. The point is, when a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core is turned ON, it produces a magnetic field. That magnetic field can then be used to attract a piece of iron, producing mechanical energy. Then the coil can be turned OFF, and the collapsing magnetic field will induce a new pulse of electricity that can be recaptured by the circuitry. In well designed systems, the magnetic field can continue to produce more mechanical energy even while it is decaying. The combined mechanical energy produced from both the applied electrical energy AND the recovered electrical energy both act in the forward direction. Because the electrical energy recovered by the circuit can continue to produce more mechanical energy, properly designed systems should be able to exceed the total mechanical outputs of other types of motors for their respective inputs. The electricity recovered can off-set the electricity applied to run the motor, but both can produce mechanical energy that is additive in the forward direction. That is the METHOD of operation I am suggesting. To the best of my knowledge, this is a new METHOD of running an electric motor. The method can be applied to dozens of geometries.

The switched reluctance motor designs shown on these links will not work well with this new method I am proposing because they all show a COMMON STATOR connection. The coils turn ON and OFF, but the magnetic field is always present in the stator core. The coils are just shifting the location of the POLES as they are presented to the rotor. The field never really turns OFF. This is partly why they need all the extra neutralizing coils and things.

Granted, the designs I am proposing are simplified, even stylized, to help you understand the CONCEPT of operation. There are definitely subtleties to the operations of these motors that I do not discuss. If you build something, you will start to see these things. But at least you will be at a point of doing something genuinely new and learning to optimize a promising design.

John's methods of electrical energy recovery are ONE HALF of this method. They are a very important half, but they are only half. The other half is the optimization of motor torque in the rotor-stator interaction. The amount of torque possible here is based on the magnetic field strength, the minimization of the air gap in the magnetic circuit, the geometry of the pole face interaction between the rotor and stator, and the timing. The METHOD I am proposing brings these two halves together to produce a motor that takes best advantage of both.

Currently, there are NO switched reluctance motors that I am aware of that run on these principles.

I hope this helps.

Peter

[Ted Ewert]

That's fine with me John. I realize we're all human, and I'm not bothered by any of it. I was just trying to steer the conversation back to motor talk.
I think we would all be eager to hear what your impressions and thoughts are concerning the Teal motor, and also about the solenoid motor you built. I realize you're busy, but we'll take what ever applicable sage bone you toss our way.

Ted

Ted, Sorry we were asked to keep this forum to Peter's designs only and the Bedini recovery for that design. Rick has built many different motors, and I might add very advanced one's. If you look you can find many forums on advanced motors. I was asked not to post anything that would take away from what your trying to learn right now on reluctance motors. I will be posting some running machines later in the advanced group's.
Sorry you feel this way as sometimes we all have disagreements with things, it does not mean we are not friends. Peter has collected a wealth of information over the years. People are only now starting to look at the energy field because of the energy situation we face now.
John

[Aaron]

New Bedini Threads

Hi John,

I just started about 5 Bedini threads here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/

You can see the list. Schoolgirl, SG Simplified, Oscillators, Cap Discharge versions, and Advanced. Post anything you want in those or even start your own thread. Maybe the Bedini Advanced thread is appropriate for what you can share in the advanced groups.

[John_Bedini]

Ted, Sorry we were asked to keep this forum to Peter's designs only and the Bedini recovery for that design. Rick has built many different motors, and I might add very advanced one's. If you look you can find many forums on advanced motors. I was asked not to post anything that would take away from what your trying to learn right now on reluctance motors. I will be posting some running machines later in the advanced group's.
Sorry you feel this way as sometimes we all have disagreements with things, it does not mean we are not friends. Peter has collected a wealth of information over the years. People are only now starting to look at the energy field because of the energy situation we face now.
John

Can we all please stop this petty griping here. I really don't care to hear all this juvinile infighting. I would rather hear about something productive I could use to build a motor.
Let's see the schematic and specs on your new motor Rick. Tell us how we can build one too.
I hope Ben comes back and tells us more about his motor. That looks like it would be a real fun one to build.

Ted

[Eric]

yes i now have the same question from reading the recomended book "Solenoids, Electromagnets & Electromagnetic Windings" by charles n underhill page 75 section 36 "the calculation of maximum pull due to soleniod" it shows tha in a soleniod and plunger setup if the plunger is longer than the solenoid winding the plunger will continue to move untill its center of mass is lined up with the vertical center of mass of the coil hense more work can be performed. so now i am curious to find out if the same principle will apply to the curved surface of my rotor being pulled into the curved stator brush. meaning wiould a wider rotor just stop when its leading edge meets the ending edge of the stator brush or would the center line on the rotor continue untill it lines up with the center line of the stator brush.

hahaha i have time to write out these speculations as i have to wait untill monday or tuesday for my parts from the machinist!!!!. when i recieve them i will have 3 rotors to try. the stator brush is 70 deg so my 3 choices i planned for are 50,70, and 80 deg arc on the rotors. so i will be able to see if the 80 deg rotor will perform more work! if it doesnt then i will know that an entirely diferent set of rules will need to be found this particular geomitry.

right now while i am waiting for parts i am trying to see if i can use this same book to try and learn to caculate the gauss saturation point in my stator core then i want to see if the existing coil comes close to that point allready or can i go bigger later on. also i would like to wrap my head around the idea of how this saturation point affects my rotor power and speed, learn more about how these gauss lines factor into how the rotor gets pulled in, will the rotor only get pulled enough to provide a big enough race way for the lines of force present or will less lines of force continue in some fashion to perform work on a larger mass rotor untill centered. i did see an interesting question in the above posts about the possiblity of the core material not allowing the magnetic field to colapse fast enough possibly limiting the rpms of the motor. this i would like to learn about as well. although it could be possible to counter that by cutting the pulse duration shorter in the power stroke giving the core material enough time to colapse the field when the rotor finally finnishes its power stroke and needs to be released. hopfully my new tunable optical comutator i am waiting for will answer this as well.

cheers!!
Eric

[Ted Ewert]

Nice layout on your web site Peter, thanks. I have a rotor question. As with a solenoid, does the rotor pole piece center itself on the keeper? Would a wider pole piece be pulled along further?

[Ted Ewert]

Ted, you're the one griping and being juvinile. If you don't care about science I can't help you. Now I have said what was necessary and need not say anything further. But I want nothing to do with speculation, hype, or science that is not accountable. If you want to build that is what we are doing and have been for years...
Rick

Thanks for straightening me out on that Rick. Love you too buddy.

Ted

[rickfriedrich]

Can we all please stop this petty griping here. I really don't care to hear all this juvinile infighting. I would rather hear about something productive I could use to build a motor.
Let's see the schematic and specs on your new motor Rick. Tell us how we can build one too.
I hope Ben comes back and tells us more about his motor. That looks like it would be a real fun one to build.

Ted

Ted, you're the one griping and being juvinile. If you don't care about science I can't help you. Now I have said what was necessary and need not say anything further. But I want nothing to do with speculation, hype, or science that is not accountable. If you want to build that is what we are doing and have been for years.

Not sure what new motor you are talking about. There are many setups. While I have special interest in torque and motors because of formerly being a mechanic, the last setup I mentioned was a multifacited Energizer. The motor element will be all used up in charging several batteries while it is self-maintained. I wrote what I did so far and will like to do when I get time. This is nothing new to me but is just a matter of time to clean up the table and wind some more coil and fix a commutator so I can film it without holding it by hand and messy looking string, etc. The addition of the window wire generator part is not a question of working but just how much more addititive will it be, and how much wire do I want to waste $$$ on this setup. No need for a schematic as I shared all the details of what I was doing and that should be fairly obvious. Just a matter of good timing.

I have a good idea of the ultimate setup, and it is similar to this one above but much better (this is all Bedini stuff, and just a combination of them). I have mentioned it recently on my lists, and will keep this info probably there as I don't have time to be on 50 lists that start up every minute.

I will do a full replication of John's latest setup after I get magnets that should be shipped today I believe. Maybe I'll do the earth cells too to verify for myself his research, which I have done many times (every time I have done this it always has turned out exactly the way he said it would--maybe sometimes better). Just don't push me at this time as I am very busy.

My last words on the DVD thing will probably be these, when the revision comes out correcting matters I'll remove the review on Sterling's website.

Rick

[k4zep]

Hi Steven,

What beautiful workmanship on your Ekland/fluxgate Generator......Unbelieveable craftmanship.....Wow! Do you remember how many hours you put into it?

Ben

[nali2001]

To Lindemann

Hallo Peter I have seen your new design. This indeed would indeed work better maybe. And is more easy to make. But on the other hand we are looking at 'just' a regular Variable- or Switched reluctance motor are we not?
Nothing wrong with that of course, but as far as I see it the Bemf circuit is 'kind of' the only novel thing here. But these variable or switched reluctance drives are somewhat problematic to run and need smart driving circuits that can advance, elongate or retard the pulses on the fly based on system load and speed. Most of them also have a minute 'demagnetization' pulse to help speedup the collapse time of the coil/core section and so allow for higher rpm's. Since 'metal slowness' in flux change can be problematic.

http://www.energie.ch/themen/industrie/antriebe/sr.jpg

Switched Reluctance Drives

http://www.sovereign-publications.co...s/picture1.jpg

http://www.sapiensman.com/ESDictiona...ges/motor1.jpg

SWITCHED-RELUCTANCE MOTOR

SWITCHED RELUCTANCE MOTOR - Google Afbeeldingen Zoekmachine

Regards,
Steven

[nali2001]

fluxgate generator
And if you would like to see more pictures for your understanding let me know.

Regards,
Steven