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  • Originally posted by bistander View Post
    Contrary to some BS you might see on this thread, positional and dimensional tolerances are not critical to .001th's of inches in large air gap PM machines especially when most of the magnetic circuit is air anyway. High quality and well balanced machinery is always desirable but hardly necessary for every 7th grade science experiment.

    Those that question what I just wrote are invited to do the tolerance analysis and/or experimental proof to show otherwise.
    bi
    Those that question are still at it. I built a test fixture. I didn't build a generator. I didn't build a precision machine. For my purpose, that isn't necessary. Instead of relying on precision measurements in the build, I can use adjustments on the assembly.

    Contrary to his last post, my test only uses one station. And uses no coil. And most telling would be to have Turion duplicate my test exactly with his precision equipment. It is a simple test but will reveal the truth. Actually the 7th grade science experiment described it nicely. Turion, or anybody, can do it and learn something they would have learned in 7th grade science class had they paid attention.

    And yes, I already knew what the results would be. I didn't need to build this fixture and do the test. I know the fundamentals and how to apply the knowledge. I did this solely at Turion's insistence so he might learn the truth.
    bi

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    • IMG_20210524_162528126.jpg

      I just tested the spindle and belt drive. With no cores in play, full motor speed gave 3800RPM on the disc. I could run with that. Spindle ran smooth and larger bearings are sturdy. But the spindle shaft isn't locked to bearing inner race so can slide axially not holding air gap from rotor to stator core. Will not be able to test with it this way. I'll have to insert custom spacers on the shaft. Maybe find right size pipe or tube to cut short section off.
      bi
      edit:

      IMG_20210524_175058935.jpg

      Found a spacer = hose clamp. Flipped cog. Up & running. 3800RPM in photo. Using 2 cores at 180. Installed scatter shield. Ran full blast for 5-10 minutes. About 50 watts at first but settled to about 40. This is first loading of motor B so might be break-in or bearing lube heating causing power reduction. Nothing showing heat and vibration is least I've seen with it.
      Last edited by bistander; 05-24-2021, 11:11 PM.

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      • Originally posted by bistander View Post



        With cores, yes. Coils are irrelevant for these magnetic drag tests.

        IMG_20210505_182845394.jpg

        6 cores, one at a time, speeds up to 8,000RPM.
        bi
        edit: although I said it before, 4 magnets on rotor.
        You can't just drill out a hole for a core wherever, it has to inter act with the magnets equally and you need many coils or cores to be dead nutz accurate so each passing magnet hit the next core at TDC all the same one after another or you won't see anything. Because of the uneven spacing some before and some after will create drag.

        Yup bye is right, his creates drag
        Last edited by BroMikey; 05-25-2021, 02:34 AM.

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        • Originally posted by bistander View Post
          ...
          Contrary to his last post, my test only uses one station. And uses no coil.
          ...
          Only one core used for primary test.
          bi

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          • Originally posted by bistander View Post

            Only one core used for primary test.
            bi
            Contrary to the fantasy world you live in generators use coils on the core and this too will cause an induced static field causing a slight magnetic effect. Run the rotor at 100 rpm without a core, then move the core in to 60 thousandths gap and run at 100 rpm. Repeat 200 RPM and so on.

            The answer is clear, drag does indeed exist. Then add a coil that is multifilar, series connected leaving the circuit open and you will see a slight increase of drag before you ever close the switch. for a tiny setup it won't seem like much until your machine has 10-12 station and the rotor is 12-14 dia. Then you will see what Turion da man sees.

            Happy investigating. great work Bye, there might be hope for you after all.
            Last edited by BroMikey; 05-26-2021, 08:11 AM.

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            • IMG_20210511_205114866.jpg

              This is not a generator. It is a test fixture which I built for a specific purpose which needs one core and one opposition magnet, as seen in the photo above. The intended test involved no coil. Both the core and the magnet are adjustable with the 1/2-13 UNC thread. True position on the other planes isn't critical for intended purpose.

              Magnetic drag is a fact of life when a magnet moves past a conductive or ferrous material (core or conductor). A few posts back I showed multiple cores installed (6). I did this to run an additional test to see how the increase in number of cores affected the input power. Correlation was linear.

              "Then add a coil that is multifilar, series connected leaving the circuit open and you will see a slight increase of drag before you ever close the switch. for a tiny setup it won't seem like much until your machine has 10-12 station and the rotor is 12-14 dia. Then you will see what Turion da man sees."

              Torque developed as a result from changing flux through a coil resulting in current in the coil is typically not considered magnetic drag. I've tried to make this clear in my discussions with Turion and even asked him to define exactly what he meant the first time he used "magnetic drag". It is not a term often used in the field of electric machinery. Turion didn't define it, so I looked it up and supplied the best available definition using the eddy current brake as example.

              Magnetic drag is force or torque resulting from core loss. The primary test of interest here is relating opposition magnets effect to magnetic drag or core loss. My contention is that there is no effect on core loss (magnetic drag) from the opposition or neutralization magnets. As such, there is no need for coils. However, going beyond the scope of my primary test, those opposition or neutralization magnets will have no effect on losses in bifilar coils when present on the core. Anyone questioning that is invited to test it.

              Isn't the quote which I used above an admission that the multifilar coil causes loss under the no-load condition? Isn't that what the Thane Heinz debunker video demonstrated? Like what I've said all along? The multifilar coil increases loss at no-load and doesn't improve loaded performance compared to an equivalent single strand coil.

              bi

              .

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              • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                For reference, the test which I and Turion are attempting to run was discussed a few months ago, so I show a pertinent post with links to the section of this thread.
                bi
                I attempted to make it easy for members/readers to refer back to original discussion for clarity, but some folks would rather go on and on off topic.
                bi

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bistander View Post

                  Isn't the quote which I used above an admission that the multifilar coil causes loss under the no-load condition? Isn't that what the Thane Heinz debunker video demonstrated? Like what I've said all along? The multifilar coil increases loss at no-load and doesn't improve loaded performance compared to an equivalent single strand coil.

                  bi

                  .
                  Exactly. A coil has capacitance and inductance at the same time. So even if it is not connected externally, there is still an internal circuit where current flows and this current will impact the prime mover, especially if it is a resonant circuit where lots of energy piles up (thus high voltage on the capacitance of the coil (dielectric energy) and thus high current when this converts from dielectric field 0.5*C*V^2 into magnetic field 0.5*L*I^2)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pmgriphone View Post

                    Exactly. A coil has capacitance and inductance at the same time. So even if it is not connected externally, there is still an internal circuit where current flows and this current will impact the prime mover, especially if it is a resonant circuit where lots of energy piles up (thus high voltage on the capacitance of the coil (dielectric energy) and thus high current when this converts from dielectric field 0.5*C*V^2 into magnetic field 0.5*L*I^2)
                    Yes all generators have coils and all coils pose a slight drag of induced static fields. Now having said this twice I will give you my example. My latest school boy machine used at school ran at right around 500ma to keep the rotor moving without a core and without a coil. Then a coil and core was connected. With a core and a coil the amp draw of the prime mower climbed up 50 ma at speed. I this case we were running speeds of 1200-1500 rpm. Keep in mind that no load was connected to the coil. Just a slight induced field into the wire and the cogging of the core, no opposition magnets either.

                    Bye can not show the single opposition test because his rotor will not respond the same at 180 degrees. or 90 degrees. He has 4 rotor magnets randomly placed.

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                    • Using four magnets, all N facing, on the rotor, at 4800 RPM constant, adding 6 cores, one at a time, showed an increase in prime mover power of 2 watts each. 13 watts was required with no cores near the rotor and 7 watts at zero RPM (PWM energized set at zero duty cycle).

                      While a single strand conventional wound coil may show some loss when unconnected, I doubt it can be detected at these frequencies with commonly available instruments.

                      ​​​​​The test fixture can mitigate cogging using an opposition/neutralization magnet at 180, using 4 or 12 magnets on the rotor, indicating the desired response. Neither the rotor nor stator core or magnet are precision located but are adequately positioned to demonstrate the desired effects. Again, the flux in a magnetic circuit using PMs and wide air gaps will fringe and compensate for a great deal of misalignment. It is not like magnetic flux needs straight line pathways.

                      bi
                      Last edited by bistander; 05-27-2021, 09:29 PM. Reason: Typo

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                      • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                        Using four magnets, all N facing, on the rotor, at 4800 RPM constant

                        a magnetic circuit using PMs and wide air gaps will fringe and compensate for a great deal of misalignment. It is not like magnetic flux needs straight line pathways.

                        bi
                        DRAG, you can not get even close. give it up and make machined cuts. All this talking yourself into an 'it;s okay whatever' is a funny joke on you.

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                        • This guy complaining about lack of precision and methods in my test rig posts up an example of his work here:

                          Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
                          In this test I told you I would come back and make more test
                          ...
                          This is an infinity generator.



                          Take a look and tell me where he gets off ranting at me.
                          bi

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                            This guy complaining about lack of precision and methods in my test rig posts up an example of his work here:



                            Take a look and tell me where he gets off ranting at me.
                            bi
                            Thanks Bye Yes this video has a great alignment on the rotor but the guard is a bit of a chop job. The rotor is also a bit of a back yard chop job as stated. Here is what you missed. The rotor magnet holders on the rotor ARE adjustable. So what you didn't see was me setting up the 20 magnet holders that all can be locked into a perfect location. Here is what I did. I set up the 20 magnets dead nutz over a single core with an opposition core in the back. Each handmade and hand positioned magnet was aligned perfectly over the core both X and Y axis. The Z axis is also adjustable at the same time which the Z axis represents the distance the magnet is away from the core. All adjustable. You can set up one without a machine shop this way.

                            Thanks for asking. See other video's on the 20 magnet rotor setup, not so easy as I make it sound. If alignment is off you may reset all of the locations which I did do a few times till I liked it. Most people just shell out a few grand to the machine shop. Machine shop fees are $75 per hour. Now if I was made out of money like another guy I know.......


                            The 4th aspect of rotor design is balancing also explained. which is a completely different field of study called mechanical design, not to be short changed. All fields of study hold merit.

                            Rotor magnet adjustments explained.

                            Last edited by BroMikey; 05-28-2021, 05:27 AM.

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                            • Screenshot_20210527-234008.png
                              Looks precision?

                              Please go back to your thread and post the results you've obtained with your machine.
                              bi

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                                Screenshot_20210527-234008.png
                                Looks precision?

                                Please go back to your thread and post the results you've obtained with your machine.
                                bi
                                I see you are getting confused. There are 2 machines here. One is the big machine and the other is the School Boy sized machine. The smaller rotor you keep showing is the 6" and was designed for around the slow speed of 1500 rpm's, the other one is not shown and is a bit more precise tho it too has the adjustable stations where magnets are adjustable. Everything is also balanced.

                                http://flyer.thenetteam.net/3battery...trandcoil4.jpg

                                Last edited by BroMikey; 05-29-2021, 09:47 PM.

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