Which type of Renewable energy will most Successful in future??

[Twexcom]

Hello.

Due to the ability of solar cells to be integrated into almost everything, I think the answer may be solar, despite the fact that it is currently more expensive than wind.

[jibbguy]

The ones that will succeed most on an international scale, will be "de-centralized" means of producing power.

Such as solar pv, or new better designs for wind that can skirt local ordinances against large turbines.

The "third world" (what's more often called "non-developed" these days), does not already have large extensive grid systems. The poor can't afford centrally-supplied power anyway. So having cheaper de-centralized means is a no-brainer; where the nasty diesel generators (or "nothing"), are replaced by clean renewable means. As the Economy of Scale gears up, the prices drop.

What many believe will eventually succeed (if allowed to, and that is a BIG "IF"), is the integrated system envisioned by people like Dr. Daniel Nocera of Harvard and MIT :

1) Solar PV generates power during the day, running household needs, plus

2) An efficient "Hybrid" hydroxy system using both chemical catalyst and current to generate H from water, and storing the pressurized H for when the sun goes down so it can power

3) An Electrical Fuel Cell to generate electricity. This power can be used to run the home at night, and/or recharge the batts of an Electric Vehicle. Obviously, the H can also run a ICE directly; either a gen-set or a car.


The sticking points right now, are the high cost and poor reliability of electric fuel cells, and seeing an efficient hydroxy system like Nocera's reach market (lol its not just the garage Open Source or for-profit inventors doing similar stuff that are being "suppressed" it seems, Nocera's method using cheap catalysts and low current to split water is being ignored as well).

This is a wholly "non-controversial" system that does not break any "Maxwell laws".... yet don't hold your breath seeing it

Daniel Nocera works on an artificial leaf | MIT Video

[Farmhand]

HHO is extremely dangerous. Grid tie solar systems simply must be regulated
against installations that cause danger to line workers, and after storms a grid
tie system that is ripped off the roof can be very dangerous, our's put's out
360v DC from each of two strings of panels. Quite lethal. Grid tie systems are
good because all devices can draw from the grid, so inductively rated inverters
are not needed. We have a fuel generator to use when the grid is down and also
some batteries charged from separate stand alone panels with inverters for extra
backup, like emergency lights ect. Everyone with a grid tie system should have a
plan for converting to batteries if pushed into a corner.

It's funny but the generator can run for the entire day from morning to bedtime
and it doesn't use all that much worth of fuel considering what it can power, the
entire house. It's connected to the fuse box on a switch, the grid gets switched
out and the generator switched in. The solar panels can be isolated but stay
connected to the grid through the grid tie inverter'

Our system can spin the meter backwards faster than I've ever seen it spin forwards.

Feed in Tariffs should not be a concern to people as the price of energy rising
will negate them anyway, if the power companies want to. The main objective
is to get a zero bill or close to it and to help to be green, If we feel as though
the power company is using us to pay for infrastructure to enhance it's grid
we can disconnect. The system is ours. Wind generators and solar go
together, a wind turbine to utilize the winter blast will augment the solar
system. Generally when it's not sunny it's windy.

Government rebates for solar grid tie systems is wrong, government rebates
are unfair in general, it is unfair and bad policy. Everyone pays for the
benefit of some, it can't get any more wrong or unfair.

Basically anyone who can't take over the household power and disconnect
from the grid is doomed to jump though their hoops, they own the grid it is
their say. Everyone should retain the right to put whatever rules they like on
their own stuffs usage, which includes the power companies and the grid.

If we don't like the power companies having control then we ought to keep all
utilities in government control. And make the public servants accountable
personally for the decisions they make.

I'm not comfortable with power and water (utilities) being controlled by
private for profit companies. What happens if they go bust after running the
infrastructure into the ground and taking huge profits in the preceding years.

We don't recoup the costs of a generator or the first connection to the grid so
why do we need to recoup the cost of a solar system ? There is no need to even consider it.

The outlay is for the equipment and it is an outlay for any system no matter what, a solar system doesn't need to pay for itself.
All it should do is produce electricity for goodness sake.

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

@Farmhand

We don't recoup the costs of a generator or the first connection to the grid so
why do we need to recoup the cost of a solar system ? There is no need to even consider it.

The outlay is for the equipment and it is an outlay for any system no matter what, a solar system doesn't need to pay for itself.
All it should do is produce electricity for goodness sake.

Generally the first thing I look at is the payback period simply because it includes all the needed real world variables. For instance we could say a solar panel generates 100w however this means nothing as it has no context. 100watts for how long, under what conditions, what is included, what is needed to make it usable in a working system, how does this relate to the regional price of energy, how does it relate to other systems?. The payback period generally takes all these variables into account and presents them in a simple context we can understand so we can compare them to other systems.

Another example is a 1000w solar system and a 1000w micro-hydro system. Now they may sound very similar as both are rated at 1000w however the micro-hydro system can run at 100% capacity 24/7 and makes a solar system look pathetic as far as the real world "Energy" produced.

AC

[jibbguy]

Micro hydro is very nice, but unfortunately not available for most people (you need running water with a significant drop on your property). Here's a nice 3kw system in a Thailand village using a shallow well pump and induction motor being "run backwards" to generate power.

Micro hydro project, Tak Province, Thailand - YouTube


Regarding "safety" of H systems and solar pv:

With roof solar it is "relative"; meaning how dangerous it is compared to house wiring (that cause hundreds of thousands of fires per year)? Regarding storm damage, the breaker systems i have seen are effective, and safer than having live downed mains wires in your yard. You could always throw a tarp over the panels while you inspected these breakers, if you were worried about damage after a storm.

Regarding the safety of H: The "Daniel Nocera" proposed system does not try to store or use the oxygen from the water, only the H, which is compressed (making it "safer" than "HHO"). Again, safety is a "relative" term: We already have significant explosive and fire dangers from gasoline, methane, or propane. Obviously, the room this hydroxy and H tank system is in should be power-vented to suck out any leaks quickly.

[Ein~+ein]

Got to agree with jibbguy, it'll be solar and maybe even faster than the 20 yrs Elon Musk considers it'll take to become the #1 source.

Hydrogen or HHO is an energy currency, not an energy source, unless you believe the water car claims. The world's automakers have all announced their commitment to hydrogen so unless nanotech can significantly improve battery tech, the BEV will remain little more than a curiosity.

As for hydroelectricity or micro-hydro, there's still a lot of potential in the developing world but some of it comes at huge environmental costs as we all know. China for example, is set to overtake Canada in hydro generation by displacing millions.

[Ein~+ein]

Most of my research is in developing mechanical and hydro/hydraulic systems. These, I feel are the most efficient and least expensive systems to manipulate into being self running and COP1 and over.

You mean manipulate people into thinking they're COP1. After a century of development, today's turbines for hydro-electric generation are only 40 to 70% efficient. How many sheeple have you fleeced so far, Stealth?

[logos]

i think jibbguy and farmhand make the best points.

the original question posted i think can be thought of in a more broad, general sense, almost philosophical.

for example, the third world was mentioned, (this is not a term i'm fond of) and if you imagine that smaller eco-friendly communities/societies, that are conscious of their surrounding and carbon footprints and all that, will have a much smaller need for energy than a small city. and just remember, about half the world's population i.e. india and china, are already forced to live like this, in small scattered villages and towns. their solutions for example would be exactly a setup like solar power and water/wind power cause their needs are smaller because of an already low level standard of living (i'm not mocking anybody here btw ) setup's like this will alow their standard of living to accelerate a lot faster than any other setup because the technology is available already and at a relative cheap cost.

i've seen a model of this working in the so-called first world. greece is broke and is bursting at the seams. however just look at a small little farming village in called anavra where minimum wage per person is the equivalent of what 8 families are making in the capital. their population has doubled, they have created a tourist industry which constantly is increasing just to watch their project grow. industry is increasing, which is creating demand for a lot more services, etc, etc. macroeconomy on a small scale! the first big obstacle was of course, their need for energy independence via wind generators and sound politics for the local community.
ANAVRA-ZO
Anavra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jibbguy made the best point if you are dealing however with the "first-world"

unless their is a real restructuring of power, the only hope i can foresee is not available to public knowledge as of yet. this does not mean that the solution can not show up tomorrow though hope is a truly powerful energy source. and this points a finger directly at the individual.

the way i see it, a lot of people working on alternative energy solutions but i think that a certain mindset needs to be realized which is not the "i'm gonna figure this out and sell it to the world and get paid" or something similar mentality. this kind of mindset defeats the original purpose of "free and abundant energy to better the world" ideals that our predecessors like tesla, leedskalnin, russel, keely and countless other energy "prophets envisioned and tried to achieve and explain to a world that was heavily invested in the hijacked capitalist movement that was quietly being directed and overtaken by the corporatists.

[Stealth]

There are said to be 3 classes of individuals in our society. The upper class, the middle class and the lower class, or impoverished. Those in the impoverished class are barely getting by and couldn't afford either wind or solar components to better their situation. Most don't have access to a water supply for hydro, so this leaves only a few other energy systems that would be viable to them for an improved energy situation. Sure, these people don't need large amounts of energy, but with only a small income, they are restricted to use less and conserve more than the other two classes. It is for them that truly need an improved energy system that our technology would be paramount. There are always junk yards and lots across the world that could be cannibalized to secure parts for a simple machine to produce energy. If they only had a schematic of how to build it, that would be their hope. It would need to be simple with few moving parts. Knowledge is what is really needed and people to administer that knowledge to these people. It would be hard to drag these people into the 21st century screaming and hollering without some hope of being able to sustain it. Good Luck. stealth

[logos]

There are said to be 3 classes of individuals in our society. The upper class, the middle class and the lower class, or impoverished. Those in the impoverished class are barely getting by and couldn't afford either wind or solar components to better their situation. Most don't have access to a water supply for hydro, so this leaves only a few other energy systems that would be viable to them for an improved energy situation. Sure, these people don't need large amounts of energy, but with only a small income, they are restricted to use less and conserve more than the other two classes. It is for them that truly need an improved energy system that our technology would be paramount. There are always junk yards and lots across the world that could be cannibalized to secure parts for a simple machine to produce energy. If they only had a schematic of how to build it, that would be their hope. It would need to be simple with few moving parts. Knowledge is what is really needed and people to administer that knowledge to these people. It would be hard to drag these people into the 21st century screaming and hollering without some hope of being able to sustain it. Good Luck. stealth

brilliant idea

[Ein~+ein]

Most don't have access to a water supply for hydro, so this leaves only a few other energy systems that would be viable to them for an improved energy situation.

It's important to get them off kerosene and especially wood and even garbage, common sources of fuel in India and air pollution.

Last fall, at the Global BEM conference in Holland, Mark Dansie of Infinergy demonstrated a chip that harvests electrons from the ambient. He also demonstrated a battery technology that enables a flashlight to last 200 hours. While such tech may provide a cheap source of light or convenient way to recharge cell phone batteries, they're insufficient to cook with.

Someone in Africa asked for help about cooking with hydrogen from solar on the water fuel forum here but few responded. At the current $0.60/watt, solar's still far too expensive for the developing world.