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  • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
    I truly do understand the mechanics of this operation. It pains me that with all that has been written and drawn on this topic we can not come to understand each other.

    Your comment above is agreeing with me, yet you think I still don't understand.
    Mark, I have to start from the very beginning...

    The coils are energised. The shaft with the commutator and the coils, all together, move from connection to disconnection. I understand that. The quantity of that movement is described by the width of the commutator segment plus the width of the brush. They all move together that distance together. And those coil bisectors (pairs and groups) move that distance because they all move together.
    In your whole response, you deleted the essential part from my previous post:

    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post

    1-Now, can you realize this is a single operation?

    2-Can you realize they take place within the same, exact Time?

    3-Can you realize the sweeping angles from both, commutator segment and Coils wound at Armature spins together, since they are attached at the same rotating Shaft?



    Time= On Both Angles displacement.

    Space= On both Angles displacements.

    It don't matter that commutator segment is ahead of coil interact area....one could move ahead of the other...however they traveled the same EXACT TIME AND SPACE from the total 360.


    If I made a 120 cardboard cut out representing the angle between the two coil bisectors of a 12 pole 4 pole pairs wind and glued that to a shaft and made that shaft rotate 57 representing the connection to disconnection of the brush with the comm segment. I wouldn't be surprised that I could fit a 13 piece of cardboard in what was left of the semi circle that would ultimately limit the rotation of this shaft. I would be surprised when it didn't all fit together if that 13 piece of cardboard was supposed to be 25.



    I agree that there is no more mileage in discussing this point. It seems neither of us are convinced by the others persuasion.



    Correct. It wasn't as clear as it could be. In the context it seemed OK. Being I was talking about the connection to disconnection. If that confused anyone, apologies for that.

    Keep Hunting

    mark

    Mark, I do not need to make pieces out of cardboard...I have 3D Animated CAD Software, transparencies, exotic materials, illuminations, textures etc...it all runs within the same time track...there is absolutely nothing better than this CAD and the Real Model to work on.


    Respectfully



    Ufopolitics
    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
      Mark, I have to start from the very beginning...



      In your whole response, you deleted the essential part from my previous post:


      [/COLOR][/B]

      Time= On Both Angles displacement.

      Space= On both Angles displacements.

      It don't matter that commutator segment is ahead of coil interact area....one could move ahead of the other...however they traveled the same EXACT TIME AND SPACE from the total 360.





      Mark, I do not need to make pieces out of cardboard...I have 3D Animated CAD Software, transparencies, exotic materials, illuminations, textures etc...it all runs within the same time track...there is absolutely nothing better than this CAD and the Real Model to work on.


      Respectfully



      Ufopolitics
      As agreed UFO, we both have nothing further to add to this particular topic.

      We will have to respectfully disagree.

      Happy Hunting

      mark

      Comment


      • Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
        As agreed UFO, we both have nothing further to add to this particular topic.

        We will have to respectfully disagree.

        Happy Hunting

        mark
        Hello Mark,

        I understand...that "we" have a disagreement on this subject/topic. However, I hope you understand this 'specific topic' refers to a very important part of Asymmetric Machines, which involves Timing, and as Garry Childers has proven through his latest testings, timing is of the complete essence to achieve a top performance operation on this kind of machines.

        Therefore, I am hoping you understand I can not just leave it like this...meaning in a complete "limbo" or abandon it completely...without getting to the bottom of all this controversy that has led to so much fuel to fire the delusional guy on the Hijacked Thread from this one.

        So, I took my time (once again) to render some CAD work where I will be posting to the whole Thread...so, please, since we have 'no agreement here'...allow others to render their opinion.


        Appreciate that!


        Sincerely


        Ufopolitics
        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
          I understand...that "we" have a disagreement on this subject/topic. However, I hope you understand this 'specific topic' refers to a very important part of Asymmetric Machines, which involves Timing, and as Garry Childers has proven through his latest testings, timing is of the complete essence to achieve a top performance operation on this kind of machines.

          Therefore, I am hoping you understand I can not just leave it like this...meaning in a complete "limbo" or abandon it completely...without getting to the bottom of all this controversy that has led to so much fuel to fire the delusional guy on the Hijacked Thread from this one.

          So, I took my time (once again) to render some CAD work where I will be posting to the whole Thread...so, please, since we have 'no agreement here'...allow others to render their opinion.
          Hi UFO

          I understand your point and agree others should 'render their opinion'. It is disappointing to me that no one has done so.

          For many, the timing issue is decided by the OEM brush settings and therefore deciding on the best wind to fit the circumstance and maintain close proximity to the NSB for the 'ON' time.

          Timing has also been taken to mean 'tuning' where fine adjustment is achieved to look for the perfect setting.

          It might not be obvious to onlookers that the discussion so far has focused on the 'timing' in order to establish the fundamental geometry of the chosen wind and thereby determine if there is any angle left for fine 'tuning'.

          I look forward to your next illustration which hopefully covers both aspects and I especially look forward to anyone commenting on the same.

          Happy Hunting

          mark

          Comment


          • About Angles of Interaction Facts...

            Hello to All,


            Mark (Hunting Ross) and I have been discussing lately on a very important issue, which directly relates to setting the correct timing on Asymmetrical Machines. The main side is that Mark kept adding the two angles involved at each interaction , which are brush/commutator segment Plus(+) Magnetic Interaction Angle taking place at energized coils and Stators Fixed Angles, all within the same rotation shaft, and taking place at the same exact time.

            It is very well known that Symmetric Motors, which is where we base our Asymmetric Designs structures, always keep the Commutator Diameter smaller than Rotor Diameter.This is done in order that commutation sweep Time will always be contained within each interaction angle Time.

            In very few motors I have seen a Commutator where its diameter is almost the same as the rotor diameter. However, they do exist and mostly are used as heavy torque motors.

            In high speed motors the commutator is much more smaller than rotor diameter.

            But, what I have never seen...is a Commutator which is much bigger than rotor size.

            When we start analyzing the length of each coil circumference related to commutator segment circumference...then we see a major difference, where coils are always bigger than segments.

            Above is something that must of Us know, however, I consider it very important at time to analyze deeper this topic.


            Now, getting into the discrepancy issue between Mark and I:


            [IMG][/IMG]


            Above we have FIG 1 which is a simple Rotor with just one Commutator Segment attached by connecting wires to the Coil.

            On FIG 2 We see the same structure, but reflecting the angles participating in this single Interaction. I have encircled the Brush and the Comm Segment defined by Angle A, within a Red Circle, which is the Switch, (in our case with Asymmetrical Motors, is understood we have SW 1 & SW 2, one on top of the other when looking on a top view like shown).
            Then we have the Magnetic Interaction 1, from Coil and section of Core, that is within Angle B into a Blue Circle. And it is understood as well that Coils interact with the Stators Angles, not shown for simplicity of just rotor analysis.


            What Mark has been doing all this time...is adding Angles A+B+C, to be considered as a "Total Sweep Angle" to be reflected upon the Magnetic Stators fixed Angles from center to center, which could be 180 for a two stator motor...or 90 for a four stator motor.

            I said He can not add None of this Angles, and force them to be fitted within the Stators Angles, resulting in very small "left over" degrees to conduct our timing. For example He calculated somehow that Sampojo had a Total Left Over Angle of just 2 to effect timing...and this is very wrong!

            He can not include the Switching Interaction Angle sweep within the Stators Angles of strength from center to center, just because carbon brush and copper segment-contact plate from commutator are not dependent from absolutely any magnetism restriction, nor magnetic interaction at all.

            [IMG][/IMG]


            On FIG 3 above I have radically set the Red Circled Switch exactly at 180 apart from Coil Magnetic Interaction in Blue Circle...So here, according to Mark, We will have to add A+B...PLUS the long Angle C...to then "fit it" within our Stators Center to center angles....and of course...we may run way over or maybe a couple of degrees off to "play" with timing...

            This Concept of adding Angles from Switch to Coils is absolutely wrong!!

            The only thing that limits/dictates the positioning of our whole Commutating Switch is our Symmetric Motors designs and their Structures, as if brushes could be moved freely, or are completely fixed...and also dictated by our common sense to use less connecting wire length, when winding in order to search for the closest segment that allows Us to be within the structure spec's.


            Finally on FIG 4 is the way we must understand the relation between Switching and Magnetic Interaction Angles, based on Two(2) simple facts:

            1- The Fact both interactions take place within the same exact Time.

            2- That Always Angle A is going to be smaller than Angle B (A < B).


            Concluding here, I tell You that, regardless of the Switch positioning, the MAIN part that we must be sure off, check and re-check... are the Magnetic Interactions taking place between Energized Coils and Permanent Stators turn On and Off at the specified angles spec's displayed here by me all along this Thread.

            The Switching Circuit, defined by the connecting wires from start coil #1, the Brush and the commutator segment connected to Coil 1 .. could be absolutely anywhere in its circumference as you guys please to do...and please, do not consider this angle for any means, except it just do its job of turning On and Off based on the proper Magnetic Bisecting Angles.

            Finally, if We feel comfortable to do so...We could have each segment hooked within the Coils sweep Angle "physically"...just like we are looking in FIG 4, which case I have suggested on previous posts to Mark...asking him if now...would he 'still' add angles.

            I know, I am sure off...that this Topic tends to a lot of confusion...I have been trying for the best way to explain/show with the appropriate Graphics this two Interactions relationship taking place...in the best of my ability to keep them as simple as possible.

            I have previous experience of several years with Internal Combustion Engines...when it comes to set timing between several turning shafts and sprockets and chains with guide adjustment, etc,etc... where all must be aligned to reach the same exact point in time to fire the correct cylinder chamber at the right, perfect stage...Therefore, I really see this single shafted Machine, as not that complicated when we compare them. However, I can understand for others who do not have even experience with electrical motors... it could bring a lot of confusion.

            If You All have any questions about above post, please do not hesitate to make your point, concerns or doubts.


            Regards to All


            Ufopolitics

            EDIT 1:

            Now, another thing I must add here, is the fact that after you have decided where to set your switch position...then by moving JUST the Brush, you will be either retarding or advancing the whole process.
            So, one thing is to move the WHOLE SWITCH and another completely different is JUST TO MOVE BRUSHES.
            The Switch Positioning is something we decide when we are setting our motor structure, before even starting to wind Pair Coils number one (1)
            Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-17-2015, 04:34 PM.
            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

            Comment


            • Misrepresentation

              Hi UFO

              I agreed to let other members respond and comment on this post, but I didn't agree to be misrepresented.

              Being true to my word, I shall wait a day or two (longer if you advise) before commenting.

              Happy Hunting

              mark

              Comment


              • Howdy UFO, all,
                RE: open to comments. Could the following explain your and HR's diff. views
                due to a conflict of terminology?
                Assuming a 1" wide comm. element and 1" thick brush. Also assume the dia
                or circumfrence as such to require 10 deg rotation to cause 1" 'travel' on comm.
                surface. It will take 10 deg rotation to bring brush's first contact to center the brush
                upon the comm. element. It takes 10 deg more to turn the switch off. Thus the 'coil' or
                pole is energized for 20 deg. of rotation.
                Please forgive if I'm all confused also.
                Also, UFO, I've sent you an email re: another matter.
                Regards to all....jw

                Comment


                • any vids of an all N motor? any single coil motor working? anyone build anything that works as good as their mouths?

                  Comment


                  • Misrepresentation Mark?

                    Originally posted by HuntingRoss View Post
                    Hi UFO

                    I agreed to let other members respond and comment on this post, but I didn't agree to be misrepresented.

                    Being true to my word, I shall wait a day or two (longer if you advise) before commenting.

                    Happy Hunting

                    mark
                    Hello Mark,

                    If You see any part of my related post that in any way I "misrepresent" what you were claiming, please, let me know and I will correct it.


                    Your "side" to look at it was and is pretty simple...Adding All Angles in Interaction. meaning: A+B+C=Total Angle to be Fitted within North-South Stators Bisector to Bisector Angle...that simple. Given "Angle C" as the "Trailing Angle".

                    My "side" was even simpler: You do NOT add Switching Angle(s) to Magnetic Interaction Angle(s), no matter where "the switch" is being positioned...it must be considered WITHIN the Magnetic Interaction Angle.

                    Further more I proposed another Graphic (to see if you would react, and change your mind about your adding side) where I am clearly INSERTING the Switch sweeping Angle WITHIN the Magnetic Interaction Angle....and shown below:

                    [IMG][/IMG]

                    But You still continued with your "Adding" calculation to come up to a "Total Angle Sweep"...regardless of this REAL Possibility to be done with Imperial which is a Four Stator, Four Brush each level Machine.

                    Like I wrote before, this is critical to be understood clearly, in order to set the correct Timing in ANY Asymmetric Machine!


                    Again, let me know where you were misrepresented...and I will correct it if you are right and I am wrong.


                    Sincerely


                    Ufopolitics
                    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                    Comment


                    • figure 4 looks good to me, keeping the com segment wire short, so everythings close together, and compact.

                      (unless you have to wind it a special way, to make everything line up)

                      ive got fully adjustable brushes on mine, so luckily, A and C doesnt come into the equation for me

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jeffy39 View Post
                        Howdy UFO, all,
                        Hello Jeffy!


                        RE: open to comments. Could the following explain your and HR's diff. views due to a conflict of terminology?
                        Ok let see in detail...

                        Assuming a 1" wide comm. element and 1" thick brush. Also assume the dia or circumference as such to require 10 deg rotation to cause 1" 'travel' on comm. surface.
                        Your example is very simple, and it is great...the main shaft needs to rotate 10 to displace 1" width of commutator segment. right?

                        It will take 10 deg rotation to bring brush's first contact to center the brush upon the comm. element. It takes 10 deg more to turn the switch off. Thus the 'coil' or pole is energized for 20 deg. of rotation.

                        Please forgive if I'm all confused also.
                        [IMG][/IMG]

                        You are not confused at all, You are completely right Jeffy...Above I have done a "Film Strip" Diagram of each frame...from 1 degree contact to 1 degree left to disconnection.

                        From leading top edge from Comm. Segment On to Off we have a complete 20 sweep...shown on End Frame 5.

                        And...The total Time On for that Brush-Coil is also 20.

                        However, the Switch Sweeping Angle (let's call it SSA)...was not the Main "essence" of our argument...

                        But IF the SSA requires or not to be added to the Magnetic Interaction Angle (MIA) from Energized Coils Bisectors, in order to reach a Total Sweep Angle to be "Inserted" within Stators N-S Bisector Angle...then Subtracting both, meaning with whatever "is left, if there is" to deal with timing.

                        Mark express to Add them...I say We do not add them, since they take the same exact time to occur, so no matter where Switch is...they are both attached to the same shaft...and at different levels, where switch is away from magnetic interaction Level.

                        Also, UFO, I've sent you an email re: another matter.
                        Regards to all....jw
                        Never got your email...was it on this Forum mail? or at my gmail address?...never got it on either one.


                        Regards


                        Ufoopolitics
                        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by esesenergy View Post
                          any vids of any single coil motor working? anyone build anything that works as good as their mouths?
                          Ask the Hijacker of My Thread (this Thread) if He finished all the bluff he has spread all over site...he is got such a big mouth...but his brain and hands are clumsy and limited...

                          First he "discover" 6 poles single asymmetric coils was the solution...and now his small brain collapsed for just Five(5)...

                          Like I am saying...it will take quite some time for his diminished processor to make up deciding between 5 or 6...too much data for its capacity to decide which way to go...and that is not counting with a possible overheating...

                          I recommend to be patient while you wait...

                          But I've got an idea......Why don't you buy it from him?...weren't you looking for an Imperial Motor before?
                          Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-18-2015, 09:45 PM.
                          Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by grounded View Post
                            figure 4 looks good to me, keeping the com segment wire short, so everythings close together, and compact.

                            (unless you have to wind it a special way, to make everything line up)

                            ive got fully adjustable brushes on mine, so luckily, A and C doesnt come into the equation for me
                            Grounded,

                            That is perfect!...make it "within" the magnetic Interaction Angle, you save connecting wire length...plus you do not need to participate on this silly argument...

                            If it works fine for you then forget about everything else...


                            Ufopolitics
                            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by padova View Post
                              greetings

                              Citfa and company, what's yours game?
                              You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
                              and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
                              considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
                              towards true researchers nothing more.
                              With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
                              It's like you're stuck in the mud.
                              I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

                              I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
                              Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
                              So funny.

                              I couldn't care less, anyway I'm not into motors. so it's just small observation, and it's just a part of that, the rest you figure out by yourself.
                              @Padova,

                              Don't waste your time with this people!

                              Did you see who responded?...Midaz the Hijacker...

                              And now he has nothing else to do but to repost it on his boring promises thread...

                              @Midaz: Go Hijacker do your piece of crap...with single coils...did you made up your mind between 5 or 6 yet?
                              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
                                Hi UFO

                                It is good to see you back working on your new motor. Thank you for all of
                                your efforts getting you ideas out into the public domain. A small note
                                on the trolls, these people want a free lunch, don't let them take yours

                                It's show time for you and personally I am looking forward to better things.

                                There are thousands of us and we all see how these trolls worm their
                                way in twisting everything around. Take no prisoners, don't pet the trolls

                                You are the best there is, thanks to all of the other guys too, I won't
                                name them ALL, you know who you are, standing with UFO.

                                We are with you UFO.

                                Mikey

                                Hey Mikey!!


                                It is always good to see you come around!...You always bring a nice breeze of fresh air to some polluted and hijacked environment!


                                Welcome anytime my friend!


                                Ufopolitics
                                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                                Comment

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