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  • Bistander

    At that time of testing, it's only a small snapshot of what we were trying to do.

    The first thing that needed to be done was test the motor "North/South wind" on a DC Power supply... That was an invalid test because the motor may have been connected incorrectly. Also the motor commutators were badly burned/scorched when returned... So, that testing was very iffy, NG.

    Here are the specs from the OEM for the P56 frame.
    http://www.imperialelectric.com/pdfs/imperial_pmm.pdf

    Secondly, my motor was tested here in Japan. I was still trying/playing/learning about setting the timing. My motor sparked heavily also but I wasn't confident with my timing of my motor... I may not have done it correctly... It was spinning but it wasn't spinning strongly like other member's motors.


    Now that I understand "How to Set the TIMING"...correctly. Ive seen major improvements!

    1.) In the RPMs, my current All North motor is over 3600rpms @ 24v... Max from the OEM @ 36v is 3000rpms in any type of winding they use.

    2.) Secondly the OEM Max torque is 15nm/11ft lbs... My current motor is way over the OEM's torque.. I don't have the proper test equipment but it has to be 3x that.

    3.) OEM 36v is pulling 128 amps in their 5hp /motor = 4600 watts... Again, I don't have the proper equipment to check the Amps on my all north motor.

    4.) Sparking is ALOT less.

    Since I/we have learned more since the OEMs test results, I would like to see how the OEMs 36v @128 amps = 4600 watts, stacks up one more time, watts for watts.

    I've learned that TIMING is crucial for asymmetric motors!


    Keep it Clean and Green
    Midaz
    Last edited by Midaztouch; 04-22-2015, 07:04 AM.

    Comment


    • Looking for test data

      Thanks for the reply Midaz,

      I assume you start your post concerning the Imperial test. And confirm it was a failure with no data collected.

      And that you offer no other test. So there has been no documented load test showing measured input and output. It does seem odd that for a thread of over 7000 posts and over two and a half years, nobody has yet tested a machine. Your impressions of your machine's capability are only that, impressions, and not data.

      I would like to see how the OEMs 36v @128 amps = 4600 watts, stacks up one more time, watts for watts.
      That would be easily done by coupling the shafts and running the OEM motor as a generator with a resistor across the terminals. Any piece of steel like an old bike frame, fender, pipe or fence with jumper cables would suffice. A couple of clamp ammeters and voltmeters and you have a head to head test to see how they stack up.

      Maybe someday,

      bi

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
        ... Me and Midaz were hanging around the diyelectric car forum, and those jokers who pretended to understand electric motors could not get it through their thick heads even when I quoted from my US Navy Personnel Manual on electrical systems and such, how CEMF voltage rose with RPM until it matched the battery voltage, opposing it, AND THAT IT WAS A BAD THING. They went on to mystically accept how it was a necessary part of the motor process of converting electricity into motion...
        Sam
        I couldn't agree with you more, Sam. I have a few motor patents that skim the cemf from the collapsing field and re-process the energy, returning it into the motor in a separate stage. When we were trying to get some traction with the 'professional' motor people, NO ONE could understand what we are doing. I used the same explanation you have said here, but they just stared at me like a little puppy (blank looks). Contemporary designs are limited- when the cemf reaches an equal voltage as the supply, then that's it for speed...won't go any faster! Not the case with our motors- I had one come apart on me around 18,000 rpm! Just barely missed getting hurt with flying debris. Now I use a safety cage for high speed runs.
        You folks are on the right path. Don't be discouraged by the 'status-quo'.

        Comment


        • cemf

          They went on to mystically accept how it was a necessary part of the motor process of converting electricity into motion...
          More precisely; required to do work, or required to convert electric energy to mechanical energy.

          I found an interesting reference just today in another thread here: http://www.energeticforum.com/274124-post15.html That reference is here: Electrical curriculum: What is Voltage? From that reference this quote:
          Imagine a waterwheel being turned by a stream of water pouring from above. If the water is like the flowing electric charge, and the waterwheel is like an electric motor, then what is voltage? Voltage is like the height of the stream at the top of the wheel, or like its slope from the top of the wheel to the pool below. Without a height difference, there can be no water current and no work done by the waterwheel. Without a voltage difference across an electric motor, there can be no electric current and no work done by the motor.
          It explains in a simple analogy the need for cemf in the motor.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bistander View Post
            Hi Sam,

            I am particularly interested in tests which have been documented so I watched that one from post #3132 several times. I noticed a discrepancy in the manner in which the input current was measured. Subsequent posts confirm that the current measurement was flawed and the test was invalid.

            Can you provide links to other tests which have been run where input and output were measured while under load?

            You also mention the test done on one of these machines at Imperial Motor Company. I cannot find any results or documentation relating to that except for some mention of commutation problems and the machine being returned. Were there ever any data taken there?

            Thanks, from a new guy,

            bistander
            Hello Bistander,

            Ok, I will try to 'clarify' your 'doubts' referring to the Test done back then:

            The Post 3132 is at page 105

            And the Test Video:

            [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPum7B65e1w[/VIDEO]

            So, let's get "Chronological" here...

            If You take a closer look at the Date on that Test Video, it was Dec 18 2012, then between Dec 23 to 24 of 2012 (Same Year, Christmas Eve, nice dinner right?)...well between those two days I uploaded all three Imperial Asymmetrical Winding Tutorials of about 25-30 minutes each.

            Then on Dec 29 to Jan 2nd, I uploaded all the Torque Testing Videos...

            I am not sure about your knowledge on this kind of Asymmetrical machines, as I really can not make out what kind of electrical background you have...I have never seen you around before, but it is ok, am used to see "Parachuters" just land and start asking questions as putting some doubts about this whole Thread...believe me...it is kind of a 'normal' "business as usual" deal here...

            But I guess you are -somehow- kind of knowledgeable about basic electrical fundamental concepts, and you do not need to be an Engineer to understand.

            This Test was done with Two separate Inputs to Two Separate Circuits, however, the DC Amp Clamp was on the Negative side before the "Y" Split to the two switches for the two Inputs.

            Now, this Machines run, based on Open Circuits,open Coils being ON-OFF all the time during operation, therefore, Amperage is NOT continuous like you find in a typical Closed Circuit Motor, which is constant DC Amps.

            Unfortunately, We can not go out "shopping" right now and find everywhere a Pulsed Amp DC Clamp Meter...and if you know where we could find it, please let us know.

            The fact is that Amps decrease considerably when Both Inputs are On after a small delay period, and this triggered a lot, I mean a lot of different kind of connections and controller search and new designs in all following posts after that particular date...where Sir John Stone made the "Monster Pulser" which could do that job along with Arduino Microprocessors.

            The Imperial Test was a failed one because of bad connections done before getting the Diagrams for testing-connecting, and they burn motor, because they did not know, and have never before worked with this type of machines.


            And then You wrote again...

            Originally posted by bistander View Post

            And that you offer no other test. So there has been no documented load test showing measured input and output. It does seem odd that for a thread of over 7000 posts and over two and a half years, nobody has yet tested a machine. Your impressions of your machine's capability are only that, impressions, and not data.
            Yeah right?...I agree with you here...We are just a bunch of Morons here trying to do the 'Impossible Dream'...

            And, please let me add to the 'characteristics' of this Thread...that it reached over 900,000 views in that short time...while the other high end two were started about ten(10) to five (5) years ago...

            Not bad Uh?

            That would be easily done by coupling the shafts and running the OEM motor as a generator with a resistor across the terminals. Any piece of steel like an old bike frame, fender, pipe or fence with jumper cables would suffice. A couple of clamp ammeters and voltmeters and you have a head to head test to see how they stack up.

            Maybe someday,

            bi
            Wow!...could you be more 'specific' about the proposed test you mentioned above?...yes, please, explain like we are all dummies...and specify like why do We will need a piece of fender...an old bike frame or a pipe or fence and some jumper cables for?

            Indeed it sounds like a very Scientific and Convincing Testing...am all eyes!!


            Ufopolitics
            Last edited by Ufopolitics; 04-22-2015, 06:04 PM.
            Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

            Comment


            • DC load

              Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
              Wow!...could you be more 'specific' about the proposed test you mentioned above?...yes, please, explain like we are all dummies...and specify like why do We will need a piece of fender...an old bike frame or a pipe or fence and some jumper cables for?
              Just as you used lamps for a resistive load for the AC generator load in that test video, I mentioned using steel parts on hand and jumper cables for a 36V DC load if Midaz wanted to do a head to head test against the Imperial OEM machine.

              If the resistance proves to low on a fender or bike frame, he could try a couple of steel plates in a bucket of salt water. It really doesn't matter and isn't too risky to experiment to get the proper resistance for 36V and 128A. For a short duration load test, 4600W isn't going to make a ton of heat. Hey, there's an idea, maybe he can find some heater elements to use for the load.

              Comment


              • Bistander


                I'm in Japan. Buying and shipping to Japan a new complete 45lbs+ motor will cost hundreds of $$$. That's out of the equation for me.

                Through years of testing trials and errors, I'm convinced that the asymetric motors will exceed the OEM motors. Between the torque and high RPMs, it gives us enough room to adjust the Timing and gearing to out perform a standard motor. At the beginning I was skeptical but I wanted to try and learn something new... Keep an Open Mind

                Testing and building can be very frustrating. It costs a lot of time, money, effort and trust. You have to remember, no one is getting paid for this! We have gone through a lot of the hard work and some guidelines have been proven/specs. Constructive criticism on how to improve the system should be given after a person has built an asymetric motor built within the specs/tolerances that have been stated.

                We have done a lot of this work and and there is still a lot that must still be done but... Now, it's time to enjoy some of the fruits of our labor. Im not too concerned with testing for now. Currently, I'm building an Electric Motorcycle to ride around town with my All North Imperial motor. I incourage people to do like wise... For me, it's spring! Enjoy the outdoors with 0/Zero emissions!

                Keep it Clean and Green
                Midaz
                Last edited by Midaztouch; 04-22-2015, 11:12 PM.

                Comment


                • Forklift motors

                  UFO can you recommend a good forklift motor for asymmetric conversion. I have a friend who wants to convert his triumph into an electric car. I noticed eBay has some 9 inch motors of the MCF type 17 horse. Cost is just 350. I guess it comes down to availability of parts and a design like the Imperial that would have minimum conversion effort. We plan to start getting familiar with local electric shops looking for piles of burnt up motors, too, trying to do it on the cheap. Always feel better about tearing up a broken motor as opposed to one that's in perfect operating condition.
                  Up, Up and Away

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                    UFO can you recommend a good forklift motor for asymmetric conversion. I have a friend who wants to convert his triumph into an electric car. I noticed eBay has some 9 inch motors of the MCF type 17 horse. Cost is just 350. I guess it comes down to availability of parts and a design like the Imperial that would have minimum conversion effort. We plan to start getting familiar with local electric shops looking for piles of burnt up motors, too, trying to do it on the cheap. Always feel better about tearing up a broken motor as opposed to one that's in perfect operating condition.
                    Hello Sam,

                    I am sorry friend, but I have seen a Forklift Motor only installed,...so I have no idea about their inner config.
                    But hey, look around and see what they look like...you know exactly what we are looking for...

                    The Forum Site was kind of hectic today...couldn't post so far...


                    Regards


                    Ufopolitics
                    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                      UFO can you recommend a good forklift motor for asymmetric conversion. I have a friend who wants to convert his triumph into an electric car. I noticed eBay has some 9 inch motors of the MCF type 17 horse.
                      Hi sam,

                      This is what the armature in a 9" diameter forklift motor looks like. It is similar to the armature in you automotive cranking motor except much larger. Notice the single turn armature coils brazed or welded to the commutator. It is a 4 pole wave wound single turn armature using 49 slots and 49 commutator segments in this case. The Ebay motor you refer to may have a different slot count, but will be an odd number of comm segments, like 37, 49, or 65 to facilitate the wave (2 circuit) winding. The armature coils are preformed hairpins of heavy rectangular copper. They are inserted into rectangular slots in the armature core. I wonder how your winding technique will work with one turn coils.



                      The stator is a wound field, 4 pole series connected with the armature. It will have a coils of heavy rectangular cross section copper ribbon wrapped around a steel pole shoe, maybe a dozen turns per coil or so. The field coil connections are brazed or welded.

                      The field and armature see the same current since they are connected in series and for this motor that would be about 200 to 250A continuous with intermittent 5-10 second jolts up to 1000A.

                      It would be interesting to see you rewind one of these. Good luck.

                      bi
                      Last edited by bistander; 12-02-2019, 09:44 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Mechanics Test of Redesign of multifilar Quad unipolar 10-pole nearing completion

                        Has maybe +/_ 20 deg tunability. Each brush now has its own wire exit point on the motor body. And the coils are trifilar 32gauge coming in at a calculated 1.2 ohms.

                        In my last test of this complete redesign of the GM window regulators I rushed into, I had estd. .6-.7 ohm per coil, on a quad-filar winding, slapped motor together, taping endplate , wires flopping around, skipped some spacers, and what a disaster. motor shot to 120 degrees in nothing flat, chewed up 4 brushes by slamming them into the connectors on the commutator, and on the other side caught a brush wire on the connector and chopped it in half.

                        OK, so I completed the design of all the loose ends and boy it is really purring, doing 5736 rpm on 12v. Running so cool too, just 75defF after a few.



                        Running much better than my double rotor Dual stator model, only gets 3000 RPM on 12v. Its not a multifilar, and it has a little too much turning resistance methinks.

                        Just put one brush set in so far to test. used popsicle stick hedges jamming a sliver, perfect fit no epoxy there, probably put a coat though, but the coil ends still need a coat, so did not want to over stress it. very happy

                        Only thing is it is running the opposite direction than that shown on the Ufo wiring diagram.



                        Got something mixed up, and the tuning could be off over 10 degrees... Oh well tomorrow!

                        Edit: just hooked up the motor in reversed connections and picked up another 1000 rpm!! So I think I learned something new about it UFO's diagrams as to the polarity of the front and back brushes. Got the winding and timing right, polarity no. I had to put the Positive lead on the BACK brush! DOH!
                        Last edited by sampojo; 04-24-2015, 02:22 PM.
                        Up, Up and Away

                        Comment


                        • Huh? Hey you too busy to post I bet

                          thanks dyetalon, surprised myself, how simple Tesla's ideas seemed, once you think about it for 2 years

                          Originally posted by dyetalon View Post
                          I couldn't agree with you more, Sam. I have a few motor patents that skim the cemf from the collapsing field and re-process the energy, returning it into the motor in a separate stage. When we were trying to get some traction with the 'professional' motor people, NO ONE could understand what we are doing. I used the same explanation you have said here, but they just stared at me like a little puppy (blank looks). Contemporary designs are limited- when the cemf reaches an equal voltage as the supply, then that's it for speed...won't go any faster! Not the case with our motors- I had one come apart on me around 18,000 rpm! Just barely missed getting hurt with flying debris. Now I use a safety cage for high speed runs.
                          You folks are on the right path. Don't be discouraged by the 'status-quo'.
                          Been holding out huh? you gotta show us some of your stuff. You doing these asymm motors too?
                          Last edited by sampojo; 04-23-2015, 04:58 AM.
                          Up, Up and Away

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                            Hi sam,

                            This is what the armature in a 9" diameter forklift motor looks like. It is similar to the armature in you automotive cranking motor except much larger. Notice the single turn armature coils brazed or welded to the commutator. It is a 4 pole wave wound single turn armature using 49 slots and 49 commutator segments in this case. The Ebay motor you refer to may have a different slot count, but will be an odd number of comm segments, like 37, 49, or 65 to facilitate the wave (2 circuit) winding. The armature coils are preformed hairpins of heavy rectangular copper. They are inserted into rectangular slots in the armature core. I wonder how your winding technique will work with one turn coils.



                            The stator is a wound field, 4 pole series connected with the armature. It will have a coils of heavy rectangular cross section copper ribbon wrapped around a steel pole shoe, maybe a dozen turns per coil or so. The field coil connections are brazed or welded.

                            The field and armature see the same current since they are connected in series and for this motor that would be about 200 to 250A continuous with intermittent 5-10 second jolts up to 1000A.

                            It would be interesting to see you rewind one of these. Good luck.

                            bi
                            What a monster, don't like the brazed connections, but I guess the comm can take it. That is some kinda monster wire too. But the shaft looks too short too. Anything coming out the other side? Maybe that thing could be deruggedized for a car, cut the comm in half, then there be room! That thing steps up to a whole new dimension of electric motor.

                            So you still think cemf is needed to convert electricity to power??? You gotta study Ufo's original video's Asymmetry to enlightment, I think's the name, at the beginning of the thread.
                            Last edited by sampojo; 04-23-2015, 05:02 AM.
                            Up, Up and Away

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                              What a monster, don't like the brazed connections, but I guess the comm can take it. That is some kinda monster wire too. But the shaft looks too short too. Anything coming out the other side? Maybe that thing could be deruggedized for a car, cut the comm in half, then there be room! That thing steps up to a whole new dimension of electric motor.

                              So you still think cemf is needed to convert electricity to power??? You gotta study Ufo's original video's Asymmetry to enlightment, I think's the name, at the beginning of the thread.

                              Hello Sam,

                              Hey Bistander, thanks for posting that forklift armature!

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              That motor have the same config as the GE small vehicle.golf cart type (Club Car)

                              Also the WARP SERIES (below pic) have similar structure as above...used on many EV Conversions...except the price is @2000.00-3000.00...depending on model

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              Not good for Asymm conversion, single wire heavy coils only need small slot depth, not good for several strands of wire.

                              Now, some of the WARP series do look like could be converted since deeper slots...take a look:

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              And look at this Brush...designed to stand high heat and transfer "mega amps"

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              Symmetry can afford this heavy wire type because they are fired in series or groups, being closed/short circuited by the two or four brushes at 180 or 90. It is an extremely hot running machine...and a monster eating amps.

                              Plus, this motor is a low speed, heavy torque type...learn how to distinguish that by comparing diameters from rotor-commutator ratio

                              Or it could be a ratio "in between" like Imperial type.

                              Use this simple diagram to think about this...

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              Smaller commutators switch in a much shorter period of time than a wider diameter would do, even when rotor coils circumference from start slot to end slot is included within the same angle. This generates a shorter ON Time plus the shifting 'arm' from shaft to rotor end is larger then for Asymm type it will develop the 'Hammer Effect' as it gains higher RPM's

                              I guess it comes down to availability of parts and a design like the Imperial that would have minimum conversion effort. We plan to start getting familiar with local electric shops looking for piles of burnt up motors, too, trying to do it on the cheap. Always feel better about tearing up a broken motor as opposed to one that's in perfect operating condition.
                              Finding Imperial was not a simple search...Your post above reminded me about my first order where I paid M$RP for the two brand new ones and had to strip the epoxy and wires...what a mess! ...auch!!

                              [IMG][/IMG]

                              I only stripped one of them as I still keep the other OEM untouched....just ordered an extra commutator and brush board assy to build it...too much work!

                              I tell you it is NOW a piece of cake to get an Imperial Kit and just put it together and wind it...

                              About the EV Forums...I believe you have to step in with an assembled, working and tested prototype...then...see how they approach to you......otherwise they will look at you like Dyetalon mentioned...

                              About "Typical" EV Conversions...and Shaft size, you must realize that Motor should supply the turning of all 'accessories' in the front end through pulleys and belts, like AC Compressor, Steering Pump, Vacuum Pump (to at least assist brakes Power Booster), Alternator for auxiliary 12 V Circuit, etc, etc...while the other end of shaft will turn the Clutch or Converter at Transmission to axles...meaning Power Train.

                              That is a lot of demand for an Electric single Motor my friend...

                              Tesla Motors came up with a very, very smart system...all small electric motors running independently each required accessory pump...so power train motor only does that...turn the wheels...


                              Regards


                              Ufopolitics
                              Last edited by Ufopolitics; 04-23-2015, 01:07 PM.
                              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sampojo View Post
                                Been holding out huh? you gotta show us some of your stuff. You doing these asymm motors too?
                                No not holding out on purpose...my contract forbid me to discuss our technology with anyone who didn't sign an NDA. Now that our motor is in the hands of professionals, I can freely discuss.
                                My partner and I began this project back in 2007 by building a re-design of Faraday's Homopolar motor (Bedini).

                                My main purpose of posting any info here is to re-enforce some of the ideas that have come about here on this forum:

                                1. YES- cemf 'recycling' is a tough subject to discuss with the status-quo.
                                2. NO- You don't need a 'basket-weave' stator or armature- we use independent and isolated stators that are replaceable.
                                3. NO- You don't have to reverse the polarity each 'pulse'.
                                4. YES- Getting the cemf out of the stator coils and NOT sending it back to the supply makes the motor run cooler.

                                see: Kress Technology Motor and Drive R&D


                                one of my issued patents in the USA AND CHINA: https://patents.justia.com/patent/20110089872
                                Last edited by dyetalon; 04-23-2015, 02:00 PM.

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