My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[JohnStone]

...
@John Stone: John, will it be possible to design a Robust Switching Voltage Regulator, without a huge/massive transformer...similar to the LM317...meaning, pure electronics...that will handle 36-48 Volts at 150-200 Amps Max?...I know it depends on finding the right Transistor(s)...capable of handling those Watts...so we could feed our Controller Oscillator?

I know that there are many available, ...

@UFO:
- I feel so sorry for your setback!
- Not sure what you intend particularly. (1) powering from mains (2) powering from batteries while having voltage regulated properly (3) step up from few batteries.

@Nico8K: Thanks for your links. As pure software worker you have gained a lot of knowledge and overview! SMART!
You remember our private discussion regarding these matters?

The link posted by Nico suggests that most of us will not succeed building such a PSU. At those circuits all malicious artifacts gather at same place / time and need to be accounted. Finding correct transistors is not an issue at all.

Ufo, please elaborate the exact application (1...3). The solution might be much more easy than expected.
JohnS

BTW: New post regarding measurement of low resistance with cheap DMMs.

[Lightworker1]

Hello to All,

Before I run the following tests, I conducted a Diagnose Test on Motor...
Found Two Pairs were open...P28 and P27, which are (thankfully!!) the outer ones at wiring diagram...they stick out, and got cut by the steel at armature and stators...getting in the Air Gap...

Here are some pictures...

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]


This be a good lesson to you all, who are replicating this Motor...
I have no idea when this happened...
Later on on sophisticated models we could add an LED Sensor to determine which Pairs are open...as to indicate a timer schedule...of "when did it happened"...

So, it is time to rewind P27/P28...and making sure will be sealed and MUCH tighter...can't afford to be a hair loose...at the RPM's this thing is moving...

And like I said before...This Armatures need to go to a process of completely bathing/soaking wires in a High Temperature Epoxy...as setting it in a Vacuum Chamber while drying up...then this accidents will not occur.


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

Hello UFO sorry to hear about the accident (P27/P28) pair.
This happened probably when you were reaching for those high RPMs like 8900-9000.
Current experiments are taking you/us where non of us has gone before and as such your experience is going to very very valuable to our projects.
May be initially tests might be done at voltages no more than 36VDC max.
If everything goes fine than use the method of high temperature epoxy etc.

Considering, Rotational KE

Going from 2000 rpm to 8000 rpm represents 16 fold jump in the rotational energy.
Centrifugal force
Fcf = + mv2/r
also goes up as velocity squared.
So possibly those windings being on the outside had very little support from the other windings and hence got lifted.

Those HIGH RPMs is just another ball game as you stated: High speed bearings, high temperature epoxied rotor and windings must be in place first.

Also UFO please check your email.

Wish all the success

Warmest regards

light

[Michelinho]

Hi UFO,

Maybe use Super Glue and the catalyst to pin the wires down for tests. The glue can be bought at the Dollars Store in small tubes or for the catalyst and large Super Glue tubes at Home Depot for sure.

The catalyst is used to speed up the drying time of the glue.

Take care,

Michel

[Lester444]

@UFO:
- I feel so sorry for your setback!
- Not sure what you intend particularly. (1) powering from mains (2) powering from batteries while having voltage regulated properly (3) step up from few batteries.

@Nico8K: Thanks for your links. As pure software worker you have gained a lot of knowledge and overview! SMART!
You remember our private discussion regarding these matters?

The link posted by Nico suggests that most of us will not succeed building such a PSU. At those circuits all malicious artifacts gather at same place / time and need to be accounted. Finding correct transistors is not an issue at all.

Ufo, please elaborate the exact application (1...3). The solution might be much more easy than expected.
JohnS

BTW: New post regarding measurement of low resistance with cheap DMMs.

JohnStone, UFO,

Just a suggestion:

It may be possible to drive this imperial motor from an Induction Cooker: Remove the pancake coil and put the imperial motor in the coil's place. Some minor circuit mods may be needed.

Induction cooker circuit design

http://inpressco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Paper5126-132.pdf

Lester444

[machinealive]

Not much to do this weekend so I think I'll start the generator. I figured there will be 12 coils in each slot, there were 4 coils( 14 turn coils) for motor in each slot, 56 wires in each slot for motor. I think I can get 96 turns of 19.5 ga. into each slot. So, 8 turns per coil of 19.5 ga, will end up with 96 wires in each slot. Should be close to .5-.6 ohms, per n-s pair.
How does that sound, UFO, or anyone, tell me what you think? Or should I go with 20.5 for generator?

Machine

[Guest]

Bob Browns First attempt

at a UFOPOLTICS Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machine

Well it rotated. lol. That’s about the only good thing I can say.

Its a 12 volt servo motor off a car, got it brand new at Princes Auto for 5 bucks ( bought 2 )
10 poles on the armature, 24 AWG wire came off at 27 turns per pole. 2 magnets on the stator.

Having read the wrong page, I replaced the wire with 30 awg. and put 30 turns per pole on , in a 5 pole pattern.I believe UFO is advising us to use the same wire in, as we tolk out ?
Also note, I did not realize I had to make a trip to Radioshack and get the same motor everybody else got. lol, I really should read your posts more carefully.

Good thing I bought 2, one was supposed to be a backup, but then realized I needed a second commutator and I needed to extend the shaft length so I had something to sit on the bearing at the far end of the second commutator. I cut the extra shaft length from my backup motor and keyed it to the end of the first armature.Now the commutator and its brush housing extend past the end of the mortor body, so I fear I will never be able to line up that armature, well enough that the armature does not hit the magnets inside the housing. I'll need to find a more accommodating motor for the next attempt.

It runs kinda slow, though a little faster when I jiggle the back housing. Using an input of 12 volts, I'm getting 6 volts on my output connections. Stopping it with my fingers is pretty easy.

I've tried 120V incandescent bulbs, and florescent bulbs, with not reaction at all. I tried a 12 volt computer fan again no reaction. This on the output line. I guess I need a 6 volt item, to see if I can play with this eny further.

I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff that I should say, but I figger eny experiment, even a failed one, is worth looking over. Just incase we missed something.

Not much in test equipment here. Muti meter and my fingers. lol.

Back to page 43 , I go. I read REALY slow. sigh.

Thankyou for Listening.
BobBrown

[Ufopolitics]

Generator Mode (imperial)

Not much to do this weekend so I think I'll start the generator. I figured there will be 12 coils in each slot, there were 4 coils( 14 turn coils) for motor in each slot, 56 wires in each slot for motor. I think I can get 96 turns of 19.5 ga. into each slot. So, 8 turns per coil of 19.5 ga, will end up with 96 wires in each slot. Should be close to .5-.6 ohms, per n-s pair.
How does that sound, UFO, or anyone, tell me what you think? Or should I go with 20.5 for generator?

Machine

Machine,

I don't think you've got it right yet, my friend...

So here is a Diagram to follow on just P1...You know the rest...


[IMG][/IMG]


I have shown the fragmented P1 into Three Coils South or as P1Sa, P1Sb, P1Sc, AND Three Coils North, or as P1Na, P1Nb,P1Nc...

So You start from P1Sa from Positive Element at commutator (same as winding Motor, CCW)...BUT grab just three poles...turn it then go to P1Sb, Using one shared common pole...then do P1Sc...then go to P1Nc and turn it CW...then do P1Nb, then LAST...DO P1Na...and go down to negative lower commutator...If you look at the sequence each coil should match with the other side...end with end...or P1Sa with P1Na...

Doing P2 is exactly same...jumping one element, and comprehending the next seven-seven poles going back same way as you did motor...

So instead of two coils per Pair...here you will have SIX Coils per Pair-Group...(better name them Groups now right?)

At the end the result should be a total of 28 X 6 Coils=168 Coils

They ALL Follow same exact directions of turns, and you grab every three poles sharing one in common...
same exact connections as motor...

Now each South and North in Pair...have three bisectors, instead of just one...

The amount of turns that will fit...well , that you calculate according to my First winding video...and the same rule applies as a generator..."the more wire...the more current out...


Regards my friend, and hope you see it now.

Ufopolitics


So far so good?

[prochiro]

@UFO
Thank you for the Gen layout above. The drawing prevents rewinding again. One picture is truly a thousand words. Hats off to you sir.

@ Machine
Before winding my motor I made a calculator to use in the rotor windings. After wiring I found it to be spot on. Now, I am calculating 86 wires of 20# gauge will fit. That may indicate your 19.5# is a bit too large and the 20.5 is about right. But as we should use the largest we can get in and to not second guess, with the small difference to deal with here it may be better to actually cut one inch pieces and do a physical count. Just recalculate everything again but I see it coming down to the difference in calculations and how far we can push it. Also when you count how many wires would be in each groove if you only did one loop per set, you will see that 12 is the number. 86/12=7 and 96/12=8. It is a close call.
Dana

[JohnStone]

Pondering an pulsing coils (any commutator does it!) - some thought food (corrections welcome):

Asymmetric motors make use on motor side of two effects (1) repulsion by normal magnetic field and (2) repulsion / attraction by collapsing field.

(1) stroke
Unfortunately the build up of the field is not instantly after switch on but following a current ramp. Let's look at a simulation of the circuit below:

Because of the resistance of the coils the ramp is not of true linear shape.

The implication is that if we switch on at bisectors being aligned we initially will have no torque. It builds up along the current ramp. The optimum for switch on will be somewhere before bisectors being aligned. Therefore we need fine tuning for every speed range.
Another notion is that if we increase rpm there is less time left in order to build up the field. The current ramp will eventually not end up at i.e. 30A (bad for collapsing field). Thus we will have a certain amount of self regulation: more load -> less speed -> more current -> more torque.


The digram below shows how the time for build up of 30A decreases with increasing voltage applied.



(2) stroke
Now let's look at the conditions for the collapsing field. The only parameter is the amount of flux being generated by the current at switch off time. The current ramp determines the losses along building up the flux. Therefore it will be advantageous to have a very short flux build up. Below the diagram for 110V DC.

We can see that the time elapsed for 30A being 1/5 compared to 36V.
Too steep amp buildup will cause less repulsion during stroke (1). On the other hand we want to get our torque mainly from collapsing field. Negotiating between (1) and (2) will be necessary.
If we expect the torque from (2) being nonlinear with flux (i.e. FLUX power ?) we will find a differnent (being more advantageous) sweet spot.

First of all I ask for corrections! Please point to wrong notions.
Additionally I want to point out that if Ufo et al having setups running is only the very first step enabling our community to study and discover the field of asymmetric motors. No revolution but evolution expected. This fact shall be taken in account by impatient members!!!!

Possible refinement:
A: finding a fitting voltge for stroke (1) and kick a much higher voltage pulse for stroke (2).
B: pulsing at (1) high voltage with variable pulse width in order to get the current soon preventing overcurrent at end of cycle. At end of (1) a decent pulse inorder to kick the flux
C: Measuring the current while ON time and switch OFF at predefined current (not by time elapsed).
D: ....

Thanks to Lester444: for pointing to SIMetrix smulator!

BTW: The imperial motor will enable any motor coil to be energized for 2ms @2000rpm
JohnS

[Lester444]

Hello JohnStone,

I see you are having fun with the simulator! That's great!

The graphs you posted are for the current build-up in a coil during STATIC conditions like a plain inductor & no moving magnet. I am not sure if it is correct to assume that the same condition (static) exists in a motor, considering that the movement of the coil past the magnet is also inducing flux into the coil's core (the rotor) and that flux can either aid or oppose the flux build-up (and therefore the current also) from the voltage applied. Because of the mechanical movement of the rotor past the magnet, I do not think the current will look like an exponential curve. The actual shape of the current curve will vary with the motor's rpm and the voltage applied to the rotor windings.

If I may suggest, perhaps you can try the same simulation but using a transformer with 2 primary windings and 1 secondary winding. The first primary winding goes to a pulse gen, the second primary winding to a sine wave gen (to simulate the magnet going past the coil). The secondary winding goes to a small load (maybe 1k resistor) and you can see the flux build-up via the voltage on the 1k resistor. (The simulator comes up with errors but I just add ground connections to the secondary winding to correct the error).

Lester444
.

[JohnStone]

...
It may be possible to drive this imperial motor from an Induction Cooker: Remove the pancake coil and put the imperial motor in the coil's place. Some minor circuit mods may be needed....

Hi Lester,
nice idea. Thanks! Those products are cheap and contain power ciruits - intriguing. I learned another bit of current technology. But here are several implications:

1. We do not just need regulated PSUs of any type. Currently I do not know what exactly we need to do in order to control asymmetric motors. (see my post above - espexcially the refinements in grey coloured letters).
2. We do not want to encourage any non professional to tinker with mains and lethal voltages.
3. Apart that - I feel - we do not need a controlled PSU in order to control a PWM pulser controlling any shape of PWM feeding the motor.... The motor itself performs as the inductance we know from swich mode PSUs. Thes we can convert easily higher voltges into lower ones along high amperage.

I feel the proper control is essential for a research motor. It might be suffitient to have a smart pulser being controlled by an arduino. So everybody can use any program posted and utilize those voltages he is able to operate safely.

Let's wait for UFO uttering his expectations and requirements before we find solutions for problems not being present. I appreciate you being a professional willing to share. We will get safe and functioning solutions!!!!!
JohnS

[JohnStone]

Hello JohnStone,

I see you are having fun with the simulator! That's great!

The graphs you posted are for the current build-up in a coil during STATIC conditions like a plain inductor & no moving magnet. I am not sure if it is correct to assume that the same condition (static) exists in a motor, considering that the movement of the coil past the magnet is also inducing flux into the coil's core (the rotor) and that flux can either aid or oppose the flux build-up (and therefore the current also) from the voltage applied. Because of the mechanical movement of the rotor past the magnet, I do not think the current will look like an exponential curve. The actual shape of the current curve will vary with the motor's rpm and the voltage applied to the rotor windings.

If I may suggest, perhaps you can try the same simulation but using a transformer with 2 primary windings and 1 secondary winding. The first primary winding goes to a pulse gen, the second primary winding to a sine wave gen (to simulate the magnet going past the coil). The secondary winding goes to a small load (maybe 1k resistor) and you can see the flux build-up via the voltage on the 1k resistor. (The simulator comes up with errors but I just add ground connections to the secondary winding to correct the error).

Lester444
.

Thanks for hints. I expect the flux to build up even more delayed bacause of opposing magnets. The post was meant for basic imagination on what is going on and for mental preparation on what future control might used for. I've seen a vid regarding magnetic simulation of a motor and based on this experience I do not dare to simulate any more internals of a motor - based on my knowledge. You know it: simulators are wild beasts and tend to abuse our mind if they are not controlled by decent knowledge.
I'd like to study asymmetric motors based on a smart pulser.
rgds
JohnS

[Ufopolitics]

@UFO:
- I feel so sorry for your setback!
- Not sure what you intend particularly. (1) powering from mains (2) powering from batteries while having voltage regulated properly (3) step up from few batteries.

@Nico8K: Thanks for your links. As pure software worker you have gained a lot of knowledge and overview! SMART!
You remember our private discussion regarding these matters?

The link posted by Nico suggests that most of us will not succeed building such a PSU. At those circuits all malicious artifacts gather at same place / time and need to be accounted. Finding correct transistors is not an issue at all.

Ufo, please elaborate the exact application (1...3). The solution might be much more easy than expected.
JohnS

BTW: New post regarding measurement of low resistance with cheap DMMs.

Hello John,

-No sweat, we learn from our mistakes...next will be better/stronger...and could stand the 9000-10000 RPM's I need...
-I want it ALL (1) and (2)...
(1) ...I want to Power from the Batteries through a Voltage regulator to send to oscillator (a low voltage@ 12.5V) and control feed pulses to Motor through Beefy MOSFET's that would use the Range of total voltage/Amperage, meaning 36-48 V/ and up to 200Amps, therefore we control speed/torque...
(2) I want to feed from mains also (120/15-25Amps) and be able to inject it at that Voltage Regulator Input side...also, but I understand We need a beefy bridge rectifier (I have that one already, 100A/600V))...and a "Middle Regulator" between Mains and the 36-48 Volts Regulator...That Middle Regulator is a down grade or Buck Family Converter...(once we rectify Mains into DC with beefy diodes) So it will bring down the 120VAC/20Amps to the Input of ESC (Electronic Speed Control) Regulator...or 36-48V/200A

Number Two will make Our Self Runner John...So we switch off batteries after "Turning Key" process...and that is it...

Now I have tried crudely and raw...by feeding direct the 120V from Gen Head Out...but converted to DC after diodes (I know, this is crazy...hahaha)...and is way too much...first, because I am not regulating Machines (mainly Prime Mover)...so linear feed takes Mecc Alte to Climax Output...so instead of getting 120V...am getting 220DC!!... ...I have tried feeding the 500Watts Lamps...to bring it down...but it will also bring down everything there...so I was able to run Motor...but way over its feed...it did not burnt...because it is Open Windings...a Symmetrical would have fried toasted and crispy...

So, I know we can make it happen...We got the Power from the Gods...
But it must be a very nicely and elegant way...as very "smooth"...with class and a glass of Champagne...


[IMG][/IMG]

S1 (Switching 1): Turn Key...Battery Feed to Controller, Prime Mover turns on Mecc Alte up to satisfactory running time, warming up, 3600 RPM's, etc/ Output.

S2:-DC/DC CONVERTER Takes Over to feed/run Controller, Batteries Disconnect from Controller.

S3: BMS (Battery Management System) Takes over Administration of Batteries maintenance, feeding from Either DC/DC Converter or Mains...it don't matter...which ever is easier, simpler and less expensive...


NOW, Understanding, this is a rough sketch...This is conceived to be done manually here...switching and speed control through Pot...not finished yet...like in Software...MUST leave a space for coming in improvements...as a speed control to back of Imperial..and a Logic Controller to keep speed regulated by Voltage Output at Genny...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Great Learning.

Thanks for hints. I expect the flux to build up even more delayed bacause of opposing magnets. The post was meant for basic imagination on what is going on and for mental preparation on what future control might used for. I've seen a vid regarding magnetic simulation of a motor and based on this experience I do not dare to simulate any more internals of a motor - based on my knowledge. You know it: simulators are wild beasts and tend to abuse our mind if they are not controlled by decent knowledge.
I'd like to study asymmetric motors based on a smart pulser.
rgds
JohnS

Good conversation, you two sparkies, John Stone and Lester, thanks very much.

Kind Regards, Cornboy.

[machinealive]

@ UFO, thanks for the drawing ufo. I did get that part right.

@ Dana, Thanks for info, 12 is the magic number that I also got. Well...,I tried 8 turns 19.5 and got to #p11. . Had to take it all apart. The hard part with this is keeping windings pushed in toward shaft. I do think that 8 turns is do-able with 19.5, but I chickened out, and am now attempting 7 turns of 19.5, measures b/t .5-.6 ohms.

Glad you made it back safe, John Stone. UFO has been oooon fire.

Machine