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Old 08-29-2007, 09:44 AM
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WFC Tube Insulation & White Powder Coating

This thread is for discussion only on the insulating aspects of the inner and outer tubes.

Outside tubes was encased in delrin and was open at the top and bottom.

the inner tube fixed inside the outer tube of course, is the negative tube and will gain a white coating that seems beneficial and will further restrict current.

There are many materials and ways to insulate the outside of the outer tube and NOT THE INSIDE OF THE OUTER TUBE of course since that contacts the water and needs enough conductivity to pull electrons from the freed up electrons from water ionization, which the electron extraction circuit (EEC) sucks from the water on the OFF pulse.

The inner tube 'could' be insulated beyond the calcium oxide coating. Further discover needed.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:40 PM
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i worked in a paint company for about five years. did you know that there are semi conductive paints out there? you could order a specific resistance paint and coat your tubes with that... then all consistency problems would be fixed. you could know exactly what voltage/amp rating you would need according to the resistive properties of the paint.

they also have conductive inks, used in the brand new "printed circuit boards". the inks take the place of wire or solder, thus allowing smaller applications to be made. these inks would probably be a lot thinner than the paints i mentioned above.

-bryan
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Old 09-07-2007, 04:15 AM
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white powder coating video

Here is short vid I shot on the white powder coating and its conductivity (or lack of).

YouTube - WFC White Powder Coating from Conditioning
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:26 PM
hydrocars hydrocars is offline
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heres my setup, the powder has small resistance when dry..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2007-09-02-83090.jpg (140.9 KB, 177 views)
File Type: jpg 2007-09-02-71405.jpg (132.9 KB, 205 views)
File Type: jpg 2007-09-02-73421.jpg (118.7 KB, 153 views)
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:06 PM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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wow, you have a nice even coat of white.
I dont think we have much calcium in the water here in melb. I have run this cell for days (max 4 hours at a time) usually about 2 hours at atime. No white coating.

So I added some lime to the water. I added 3 teaspoons of it to my 700ml jar.

It raised the conductivity of the water imensly. I ran the cell on about 5 volts DC. for two 4 hours session and continuing, and the white coating has appeared finally, yet it is patchy. It does not wash off but I can rub it off with my fingernail.

Is that normal or should it be electro plated on and almost a part of the metal?
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:08 PM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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I have one more question about my tubes. I cut them with a hand held grinder so they are not all the same and do not have very clean cuts, I tried my best but could have done better. How important is the acuracy of the cutting of the tubes? I have been meaning to ask this for ages.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:32 AM
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pics

These are great pics Hydrocars! Looks thicker than mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrocars View Post
heres my setup, the powder has small resistance when dry..
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:35 AM
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lime and tube tuning

Hi Opmeyer,

Yeah, the lime (calcium hydroxide) if that is what you're using will alllow quite a bit of amperage. Someone else used it and got a lot of blotchy white coating. I would imagine that adding very very small amounts spaced over more time for the conditioning 'might' make a more even coating.

There is a lot of talk about tube tuning but noone has brought forth anything solid in my opinion.

However, the closer all the inner/outer tube sets are to each other with a common pulsing circuit, everything will be synchronized in a more optimum way I believe. So when you hit the frequency where amps is the less, it will be more true for each tube setup instead of an average best for tubes at different sizes.
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:52 PM
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Using Calcium Additive in the water

Here are some pics of my blotchy white coating from adding Calcium Hydroxide to the water and running the cell for about 4, 3 hour runs.


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Old 09-20-2007, 02:34 AM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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How often do you change the water during conditioning?

Is it nessesary to change the water during conditioning? I imagine that the calcium in the water is depleted after a certain amount of running time. Should I be replacing the water every few hours as it begins to go orange?
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:35 AM
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amps for conditioning?

Ok, I see what you mean by blotchy. Someone else said they got lumpy parts. You say you were using 5 volts. How many amps?

I changed the water when the iron oxide sludge floating on top of the water was pretty thick...not because it interfered with gas production but because I also thought that if it is calcium, then lets gets fresh batch.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:44 PM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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Amps

The cell was running at about 5 VDC at about 5 Amps with 3 teaspoons of Calcium hydroxide straight of the bridge rectifier after the variac, no coils, no added capacitors. Then one of the pipes must have shorted or something because my Bridge rectifier burnt out.

Anyway now I am trying the conditioning with 12V and about 12 Amps. Using only calicum dietry supplement pills in the water crushed to form about 1 gram of powder that disolves in water. The contents of the pills are as follow.

per tablet.
Calcium Phosphate (calcium 210mg)570mg
Calcium hydrogen phosphate (calcium 140mg) 600mg
Cholecalciferol 2.5 ug

First I put in about 6 tablets in 8 L of tap water. the brand is blackmores and they are called bio calcium. Just changed the water now and added 2 tablets in 8L. Now 12V 7 Amps.

Most of the additives have remained undisolved at the bottom of the water container after days

Last edited by opmeyer : 09-20-2007 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:49 PM
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Hard Water - vs - Soft Water

We have soft water in Australia. (melbourne) which apparently means that we do not have the same minerals as the 'hard water' in the US and Europe.

Thats why I have such trouble getting the white coating here. I will experminent with the additives meansioned above. Any suggestions welcome.
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Old 09-27-2007, 09:31 PM
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The impedance of calcium oxide may be different at frequencies other than DC, so beware of simple multimeter conductivity tests.

A better test would be to measure the conductivity with the tubes submerged with and without the coating at many different frequencies (e.g. the transfer function).

It appears from the youtube video that the calcium oxide may be hydrophilic, which may be an essential property of a non-conductive coating.

The coating may also play a role in reducing bubble adhesion to the side of the tube.

It's easy to identify other types of coatings that are non conductive, but the majority of them are hydrophobic- some that come to mind are ScotchGard and parylene.
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Old 09-28-2007, 06:18 AM
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calcium coating

Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

As far as bubble adhesion, I think that with the force of the gas production, it will never be an issue.

I have not tested conductivity in the water vs out of water.
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Old 09-28-2007, 08:37 AM
kumaran kumaran is offline
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Plate electrode and Bedini SSG

Hi guys,

I read about white coatings on SS electrode using high voltage pulse in other forum. White coatings is part of conditioning process that could produce more gas output. I don't have narrow gap SS cylinders but I do have 6" x 6" SS plate (304) which I'm using for hydrogen generator (Bob Boyce series design). Few years back I was experimenting on Bedini SSG.

I took out my old Bedini SSG monopole motor to use for this experiment. I drilled 5mm hole at middle and four corners of the plates. Use nylon screw to tie both plates together with 1mm nylon washer as spacer between plates.

Bifilar wound 850 turns of 0.50mm and 0.65mm copper magnet wire onto ferrite core. Use only 680 ohm resistor at transistor base. The rotor has 5 pieces of 1" magnet sandwich epoxy between aluminium plate and mounted on harddisk bearing.

I don't use any secondary battery for charging but replaced with single cell.

Transistor collector -> 1N4007 -> cell -> battery positive

Use only tap water as electolyte without any additives. Run the system for almost a week. Replaced water twice a day due to brown scum at beginning. Now lesser brown scum forms so I just replace water once a day. After 5 days I notice white coatings on negative plate at top edges. I can't see how much white coating covers through out the plate surface.

I'll post the results as progress.
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:46 PM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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Caclium carbonate tablets. results after 8x2 hour runs.

2 crushed tables.

per tablet.
Calcium Phosphate (calcium 210mg)570mg
Calcium hydrogen phosphate (calcium 140mg) 600mg
Cholecalciferol 2.5 ug

I got bad orange much after 2 hours. this was from the steel hose clamp holding the pipes together and the steel aligator clips. With copper wire and cable tie holding the cell together , i do not get much brown/prange muck at all.

anyway I now have 90 % of all tubes insulated. see images below. (please see the WFC schematic post for details and corrections on my latest youtube video. (it was remved because I was not getting 0 amps. Wrong reading. Still 4-5 amps with arron schematics as with lawton and straight dc)

but anyway, I have insulating coating now on tubes, still blotchy tho, but not bad.


http://home.vicnet.net.au/~olaf/hho/white3.jpg
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:37 PM
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i used dawn detergent to condition my tubes, what you see in the picture was done in a few hours. i would perform electrolysis and take out to dry, poor dawn into the container first, then water. then repeat the steps.

the water molecule is not off balance, it has no polarity. if you coat both cells so they can't come into contact with the water and you use a van de graaf generator to create static across the rods, the negative static charged cathode will attract the positive hydrogen atom.

the anode, the positive charged anode will attract the negative oxygen atom. the anode also pushes away the positive hydrogen atom, and the cathode pushes away the negative oxygen atom.

if you get this static field strong enough, the static fields of the polarity of the cell will rip the water molecule apart breaking the covalent bond of the water molecule.

so you would need 2 coated cells so that they came not in contact with water, and you need a van de graaf generator. we're working on this over at ionizationx
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Old 11-05-2007, 06:45 PM
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dawn coating test

Hydrocars,

Did you test the van de graaf yet?

Aaron
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:07 PM
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Hydro Cars.....

Im very interested in the Van De Graaf results Also.....
Also using dish soap actually worked that well? Im surprised it did not create a bunch of gunk in the water..... This could be a very big finding in the conditioning area of the WFC if it works that easily
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:38 AM
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Lightbulb Info on Calcium Build Up.....Calcite

Dissolved minerals, primarily bicarbonates of calcium and magnesium, remain within their host complexes under normal conditions. As a result, the dissolved particles, devoid of any nucleation centers for growth and escape from the water, flow evenly within the water having no particular tendency to bind together or lose their solubility. However, when the mineral content of the water becomes over saturated, is heated, or placed under decreased pressure (as it does, for example, when the water exits the pipe and flows into you faucet screens and shower heads), the water releases gases such as carbon dioxide that increases the water's pH and allows mineral complexes to become agitated, break up and the minerals to clump into larger masses. The clumping effect makes it more difficult for the minerals to remain soluble and the crystallized mineral precipitates out of solution and attaches to any available nucleation center, typically your plumbing walls and fixtures. Two types of crystallization occur.

** The first, which occurs in the hottest part of the heat exchanger (hot water heater heating element, for example), results in a mineral form called calcite. Calcite is an adherent mineral that attaches itself to the surface of the heat exchanger. Repeated collisions cause the build up of more and more scale on the heat exchange surface. Since mineral scale is an insulator, transfer of heat from the heating element to the water is gradually reduced causing more energy to be consumed to heat the same water.**

**The second type of crystallization occurs when calcium carbonate forms in a lower heat environment away from a heat exchanger. The resulting mineral formation is called aragonite. While aragonite can still adhere to surfaces (faucet screens and shower heads for example) its primary form is non adherent and tends to form smaller grained or softer scale deposits. These deposits remain stable upon heating and can be carried throughout the heating or cooling system causing little or no damage. This type of scale is what collects at the bottom of your water heater, becomes trapped in faucet mounted filters, appears as toilet bowel discoloration, or moves through and out of your home through the water pipes.**

This is some info I found in a manual for maintenance and repair of water heaters.......Its old and missing covers so I can't tell you what its called or give credits....
Just thought this might help a bit with the discussion at hand

Last edited by Redmeanie : 11-11-2007 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:43 AM
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semiconducting properties of passive films formed on AISI 304 stainless steel

You might find this important if you believe in the coating idea:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...32002000400005


This far in my work I have not found the coating of any beneficial use but have not ruled it out either. Having talked to people that worked with SM they do not remember any coating be important in the cell to operate. If it was; I would think that SM would have included it in one of his patents as he did patent everything. There are a lot of ways to stop amps or add electron gate’s to the circuit that would be more reliable than the coating, but I am not ruling it out…lol.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:57 AM
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possible clear coating

It is possible SM used super corona dope on his tubes and nobody would ever know and they wouldn't be able to see it with tubes submerged.
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:06 AM
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GUYS WHY, inst any body NOT LOADING their WFC and still claiming OU?
temperature and pressure(which gets effected under LOAD) plays a role in the final TRANSFERENCE. Please please please LOAD YOUR FUEL CELL WITH HEAT OR WHAT EVER AND THEN CLAIM IT AS OU.


a reminder what power is.
THE ABILITY TO DO WORK!

Last edited by ashtweth : 02-27-2008 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:29 PM
rick123 rick123 is offline
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hydrogen cell

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I am in the process of conditioning this cell. This is my third build. I am running the d-14 circuit. For the first time I get no brown stuff built-up in the water? I sanded the 316 L tubes and am using tap water. Here is a pic rick

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Old 03-04-2008, 12:24 AM
rick123 rick123 is offline
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I have been conditioning with 555 circuit for three days and could not get white coating. I switched to Aarons wall circuit and saw a little bit of white coating after three hours of continues run time. I have my variac set @ 10 volts, with bridge, diode into inductor on positive. I will continue to condition for the rest of this week. Then I am trying the ignition coil for choke. Thankyou Aaron, Rick
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:27 AM
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Rick, your cell looks very good. Thank you for sharing
Keep up the good work!
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:43 AM
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White coating

Good Morning All,

I've been running my Dave Lawton pattern cell for a short while now.

I have found that I shouldn't have used crimp terminals to connect the wires between tubes and am now using electric fencing repair wire for interlinking tubes.

My inner tubes are well coated in a white deposit.

I'm only using the D14.pdf electronics and less than 2A at all times. I note the reports of upto 5A, I thought this was meant to be a potential thing not brute force?

I am still producing brown stuff after what 4 weeks (3 seperate periods amounting to this in total).

Our water is uncontaminated with the chemicals normal domestic tap water is in the UK as it comes from a well. I'm beginning to wonder what might be in the water itself as the tubes are 316L grade steel.

I have the bits to add on the caps/ FWBR/ load as per the latest D14 and will look to adding these next time home.

I'm currently sourcing 150mm tube and end caps for Ashweth and getting a set for myself at the same time. I can supply the 110mm tube and end caps and stainless steel tube to people in the UK/ EC area. Just give me a shout.

Regards

Richard
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Old 03-07-2008, 12:07 AM
rick123 rick123 is offline
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Continuity

I have been conditioning cell for about one week. 3-4 hours everyday. I keep negative to inner tube and positive to outer tube. All power is off and I have water in my cell and test for continuity between negative and positive tubes it gives me a positive reading if i attach my leads, negative to negative tube and positive lead to positive tube. If i change my meter leads to opposite tubes it shows no continuity. I have done this a dozen times to re-check on every tube. Does anyone now why this happens?
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Old 03-07-2008, 01:59 AM
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Hi, Dont interchange your leads, it will ruin the white coating , Ravi told me that.

Re- Rich

hmm well tap water obviously has different additives in it, i know some people in the states could not get their cell working due to the different water. I would go for Run of the Mil "crappy" tap water to get the additives in it for proper conditioning (like dave used) and go from there. Hope it helps mate.

Ash

Last edited by ashtweth : 03-07-2008 at 02:03 AM.
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