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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #31  
Old 09-06-2007, 05:44 AM
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AaronsDesign4.pdf

I'll try to get that doc. That is a different Aaron by the way in case anyone is wondering. Aaron Hall in the H2Earth.org skype chat is doing great work. I'll post a link or upload somewhere if I can get it.
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  #32  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:57 AM
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Aaron's design4

I can't comment on what this circuit will do, but here it is:

http://furvert.net/JHootenConsulting...onsDesign4.pdf
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2007, 06:11 PM
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Aaron

I would like to give your "Single core layout" a try!
What gauge wire would you recommend and how many windings for the primary & secondary as well as for the inductors?
Would you wind the secondary on top of the primary, but the inductors bifilar, i.e. the two wires next to each other?

Just after I posted my question above, I saw your words:
"If both are bifilar, then primary/secondary are wrapped together and the 2 chokes are wrapped together."

So I assume both the primary/secondary and chokes are all wrapped bifilar?
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  #34  
Old 09-10-2007, 04:57 AM
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single core

Hi Passion1,

This is the same style I'm working on now.

On one side of core are the bifilar primary/secondary.

On the other side, bifilar chokes.

Chokes have to be so that when everything is charged Norths
are diagonal...otherwise when primary is charged, chokes will emit north field opposing field from power coils.

I am mostly interested in this unicore method in addition to the rotary method but am not going to mess with the rotary method yet.
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  #35  
Old 09-10-2007, 05:15 AM
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windings for unicore

Passion1,

windings, etc... I would do as close to what Meyer's describes in his writings.

I am not very good at calculating out what length, etc... is best, awg, size of core, etc... there are a lot of online calculators that make that easy.

There is a dual bifilar with a unicore setup already made that I will test for this application. actually 2 quadfilars but will use them as bifilar. If I were to start from scratch and wind from scratch, I'm not sure. JH is a good one to ask in the h2earth skype chat.
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  #36  
Old 09-20-2007, 07:41 AM
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size of chokes - very important

According to Meyer, each of his chokes were 11.6k ohms or 11,600! That is huge resistance for a coil.

At 44 awg copper wire, that is about 4600 feet long each. at 58 awg about 170 feet or at 60awg it is about 107 feet long.

I wouldn't use too small of wire (bigger awg #) because too fragile and for practical purposes.

Anyway, that is a LOT of wire.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Meyer says he is NOT using resistive element to reduce volts as resistance consumes power..like a resistor. INSTEAD, he is using the MAGNETIC Field in the choke coils to choke the current. This isn't a secret but I say this so that people aren't mislead into thinking that because the coils are huge resistance (11.6k ohms) that is is all about resistance. When the coils are charged, there is impedance...back emf that his holding back current. So please take note of this.

Also, NOBODY that I know of is using chokes this big so if people want to do it Meyer style, it would be a good idea to use chokes this big.

At 44 AWG, pretty small wire itself...that is almost 10,000 feet of wire for BOTH chokes!!

Meyer specifically to get more voltage to the cell for same input...increase turns on chokes.
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  #37  
Old 01-14-2008, 05:03 PM
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Aaron,

what is the "rectifier" and "rheostat" used for in your drawings?
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  #38  
Old 01-15-2008, 08:19 PM
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Choke

HI Aaron!
Thank You for Your help to my. Now I want ask You about the importance direction of winding coils on magnetic core ( primary , secondary and two bifilar chokes ) for vic . In Your video 'Back EMF vs Collapsed Spikes', posted September 05, 2007 first pic show two different way direction of winding coil . Right coil is cross out - why? Is this direction of winding coil not working for Stan Meyer vic or for phenomena - field collapses and reverses polarity-? .Must I wind coil only by way show in pic - left side?
I am sorry for my bad english.
Please about Your answer.
Thank You
All the best for You
man70
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  #39  
Old 01-16-2008, 06:09 PM
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rectifier and rheostat

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoodidabop View Post
Aaron,

what is the "rectifier" and "rheostat" used for in your drawings?
Just keeping consistent with Meyer's drawings.
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  #40  
Old 01-30-2008, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
According to Meyer, each of his chokes were 11.6k ohms or 11,600! That is huge resistance for a coil.

At 44 awg copper wire, that is about 4600 feet long each. at 58 awg about 170 feet or at 60awg it is about 107 feet long.

I wouldn't use too small of wire (bigger awg #) because too fragile and for practical purposes.

Anyway, that is a LOT of wire.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Meyer says he is NOT using resistive element to reduce volts as resistance consumes power..like a resistor. INSTEAD, he is using the MAGNETIC Field in the choke coils to choke the current. This isn't a secret but I say this so that people aren't mislead into thinking that because the coils are huge resistance (11.6k ohms) that is is all about resistance. When the coils are charged, there is impedance...back emf that his holding back current. So please take note of this.

Also, NOBODY that I know of is using chokes this big so if people want to do it Meyer style, it would be a good idea to use chokes this big.

At 44 AWG, pretty small wire itself...that is almost 10,000 feet of wire for BOTH chokes!!

Meyer specifically to get more voltage to the cell for same input...increase turns on chokes.

thats not huge resistance for a coil most automotive ignition coil secondary winding is in that range even higher in high performance like double

i was wondering if you might share any meyers papers you might have that i might not have
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  #41  
Old 01-30-2008, 10:43 PM
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Ignition coil choke

I came up with a simple way to use an ignition coil as a choke. I recommended it to a few people and they did get the highest voltage readings on the cell they ever saw...few hundred volts, but much higher than 2-4volts!

The diode on + side, goes to the low voltage input + on the ignition coil...then the high voltage output goes to the + on the cell... neg terminal not needed...using it in series as a choke. Many people won't wind these coils as they need a lot of turns, but yes, the ignition coils are already in the 10k+ ohms range.
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  #42  
Old 02-29-2008, 02:25 AM
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Can anyone out there provide these circuits?

I have a Pulse Freq. Generator. But, it does not have the Bifilar Chokes, and the Voltage Intensifier circuit. Can anyone out there provide the ďrest of the circuitryĒ? I have reviewed the video (Stan Meyer WFC Bifilar Chokes), but I am not really sure exactly what I am looking at. I built and installed a working electrolyzer in an 8,000 lb. Custom Van. It has been working fine for several months. 22% better mileage. I want to make and install a High volt, High freq, low amp tube unit.

I need the circuits in this video, and at the beginning of this post by Aaron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozpRN...ater_Fuel_Cell

Thank you,

Norm
elf@access4less.net
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  #43  
Old 06-06-2008, 08:42 PM
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Linear circuit?

Is this circuit a linear circuit? if not what is it?

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  #44  
Old 06-06-2008, 08:54 PM
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Maybe it would help if you explained what exactly do you mean with "linear circuit"
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  #45  
Old 06-06-2008, 09:34 PM
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chokes

One of the chokes is "variable"? Do you accomplish this by building an adjustable core (sliding or scewing it in and out)? This would allow you to adjust the impedance? Am I thinking about this the right way? or am I way off? Thanks
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  #46  
Old 06-06-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Maybe it would help if you explained what exactly do you mean with "linear circuit"
hehe, i'm afraid my knowledge of electronics is not what you would call sound.. therefore i searched on wiki and found this explentaion:

"A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of frequency f, any output of the circuit (current through any component, voltage across any component, etc.) is also sinusoidal with frequency f. Note that the output need not be in phase with the input.

Another (equivalent) way of defining a linear circuit is any electronic circuit whose output is a linear transform of its input, where linear means that f(ax1 + bx2) = af(x1) + bf(x2). Some examples are amplifiers, differentiators, and integrators, or any circuit composed exclusively of ideal resistors, capacitors, inductors, op-amps (in the "non-saturated" regime), and other "linear" circuit elements.

Linear circuits can be analyzed using the superposition principle, which, for example, allows Fourier analysis to be used."

what i need to know is if the meyer cell does in fact have the characteristics
described above...

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  #47  
Old 06-07-2008, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octavian View Post
hehe, i'm afraid my knowledge of electronics is not what you would call sound.. therefore i searched on wiki and found this explentaion:

"A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of frequency f, any output of the circuit (current through any component, voltage across any component, etc.) is also sinusoidal with frequency f. Note that the output need not be in phase with the input.

Another (equivalent) way of defining a linear circuit is any electronic circuit whose output is a linear transform of its input, where linear means that f(ax1 + bx2) = af(x1) + bf(x2). Some examples are amplifiers, differentiators, and integrators, or any circuit composed exclusively of ideal resistors, capacitors, inductors, op-amps (in the "non-saturated" regime), and other "linear" circuit elements.

Linear circuits can be analyzed using the superposition principle, which, for example, allows Fourier analysis to be used."

what i need to know is if the meyer cell does in fact have the characteristics
described above...

By that definition and my experience in electronics, and minimal experience with Meyer's set-up, I would say yes it's Linear up to the Coils (chokes).

So I guess you could say it is "Modified Linear"

Anyone else have anything I would be missing for him?

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  #48  
Old 06-07-2008, 03:47 AM
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VIC, bifilar chokes, Meyer, wfc, water capacitor, etc...

Hi Everyone,

I probably get asked about the VIC/bifilar choke circuits more than anything else. I have been hesitant to post all the details because the results I had were not like Stan's and I don't want anyone going off on the wrong track in case I'm misinterpreting something. I'm not saying no results, just not the same.

The closest thing to this VIC circuit that I have seen is in a "pulse forming network" circuit for radar transmitter plates in Nike missile silos. All these docs are online and public domain now, but again, that doesn't mean anything. I'm just saying it resembles Stan's circuit closer than anything else I've seen.

Here is what I believe is a necessary concept that must be throughly explored or it doesn't matter what circuit you have...if, you want to use only voltage potential to separate water with no current or bare minimum.

INSULATION to make the cell a capacitor in the true sense of capacitor.

Stan showed using delrin to encase an entire inner/outer tube setup.

I have seen attempts with van de graff's, etc.. and other high voltage means to accomplish pure electrostatic separation and nobody has succeeded in any significant ways. The voltage is leaking all over and dust and other stuff is attracted to the cell from the floor, etc... that means it is not a capacitor...it is not holding that voltage to any high degree in the water cell itself. If that is the case, there will never be enough voltage for true electrostatic separation.

The best I have seen is high voltage going to a gap between 2 rods. WHICH IS WHAT MEYER'S VERY FIRST PATENT WAS ALL ABOUT IN HIS CANADIAN PATENT...ALSO MAKING MAGNETIC GAS.

Look 1st: Canadian Patent # CA 1213671 (look at last drawing with the 2 rods and voltage applied at gap...NOT tubes or plates.)
Look 2nd: Canadian Patent # CA 1228833

How many people have attempted the Stan Meyer process and measured voltage at the cell to see that it is all gobbled up no matter what is thrown at it...2 volts, 5 volts, 20 volts, 80 volts, etc...? Has anyone measured with a HV probe 10k? 20k? 30kv? 40? 50? +? I haven't seen this...not to say nobody has done it, BUT, where is it?

Everyone is measuring an inner/outer tube setup and finding virtually no voltage...why? The annode-cathode set is short circuited. Put a wire between the + and - of any capacitor and measure how much voltage you get? little to none...effectively short circuiting the capacitor.

Through the water by whatever conductivity does exist, the top edge of the annode and cathode are short circuited to each other. The bottom edges are short circuited through the water to each other. The annode outer side is short circuited through the water to any exposed metal on the cathode.

The ONLY place the voltage should be directed between the annode/cathode set is in the gap and nowhere else. If there is all the short circuited leakage, how can anyone expect to find any high voltage in that water capacitor? They won't.

Stan showed a delrin encasement around the annode with small openings at the top and bottom. The cathode is inside the annode. As water is drawn into the opening at the bottom of the delrin encasement, the ONLY PLACE THE WATER EVEN TOUCHES IS THE GAP. The inner part of the annode and outer part of the cathode is the ONLY part where the water touches without the voltage leaking out everywhere else. What that means is that the annode/cathode tube set really has become a capacitor to lock in as much voltage as possible where it counts...the gap where you want the water to split from nothing more than pure voltage potential.

Even if I had the 100% foolproof VIC circuit, it would do nobody any good at all hooking it up to a short circuited cell.

I'm not a machinist and am not interested in dealing with delrin. There is a product called "SUPER CORONA DOPE." It is a xylene lacquer type of mix that you can brush on to metal or whatever and then it hardens like a glass and resists 4000volts per mil or 40,000 per mm thick. If you had 2 flat plates and each was thoroughly coated with 1mm each, that is a dielectric strength high enough to hold back 80,000 volts.

Another option I have no tried yet but bought some to mess with is PLASTIDIP...the liquid plastic stuff you can dip pliers into and it makes a rubbery coating on the handle. I think putting some kind of plug in the top and bottom on a annode cathode set and dipping the whole thing in plastidip could encase it like the delrin. Anyway, the super corona dope painted on could do the same...just some ideas.

Stan shows a lot of bare metal tubes...it is 100% possible they were thoroughly coated in corona dope (been around a long time), etc... just speculation but as a possibility, something to consider. Even if not, he DID show the delrin encasement concept in the tech manual, etc...

This message is just to show where my focus is and where I think there needs to be ample collaboration on is to validate and verify the concept of making a true water capacitor then applying higher voltage to it to see if there is high voltage that does actually build in the gap since it isn't short circuited elsewhere.

Since about November, I have had this project in various stages. I would love to see others play in this area. I think it is effort in vain to focus on the circuits that just pump voltage into a black hole. Anyway, check this patent for the best simple start for anyone to see...the CONCEPT accomplishes what Stan Meyer is showing with the delrin encasement.

Water decomposition method and ... - Google Patents

Also read this page thoroughly...study it:
K9 Passage of electricity through gases

Ionization by collision is where a lot of water gas is produced without having to increase the power to the cell...as electrons are freed, they accelerate towards the annode knocking out electrons from other water molecules on the way...that is FREE water gas production without extra input. The higher the voltage, the stronger the effect, but again, pointless unless you can maintain true HV in the gap. This effect will be there with any true HV potential/electrostatic separation of water.
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  #49  
Old 06-07-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Stan showed a delrin encasement around the annode with small openings at the top and bottom. The cathode is inside the annode. As water is drawn into the opening at the bottom of the delrin encasement, the ONLY PLACE THE WATER EVEN TOUCHES IS THE GAP. The inner part of the annode and outer part of the cathode is the ONLY part where the water touches without the voltage leaking out everywhere else. What that means is that the annode/cathode tube set really has become a capacitor to lock in as much voltage as possible where it counts...the gap where you want the water to split from nothing more than pure voltage potential.
Hi Aaron,
i'm afraid i'm having some problems picturing those small openings between the solid dielectric and the annode. do you think it would be possible to explain that part of it in more detail?

Thanks anyways for all the great information

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Old 06-07-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmeanie View Post
By that definition and my experience in electronics, and minimal experience with Meyer's set-up, I would say yes it's Linear up to the Coils (chokes).

So I guess you could say it is "Modified Linear"

Anyone else have anything I would be missing for him?

Thanks! But why just up to the Chokes? why not all the way to the capasitor?

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  #51  
Old 06-07-2008, 03:35 PM
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wfc encasement

Hi Octavian,

This is straight out of Meyer's WFC Tech Manual/Brief:

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  #52  
Old 06-07-2008, 05:35 PM
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Thanks, i just remembered i have the entire WFC manual in PDF

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  #53  
Old 07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
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Quote:

The ONLY place the voltage should be directed between the annode/cathode set is in the gap and nowhere else. If there is all the short circuited leakage, how can anyone expect to find any high voltage in that water capacitor? They won't.

Even if I had the 100% foolproof VIC circuit, it would do nobody any good at all hooking it up to a short circuited cell.

Hi everyone! Itís nice to have found a place with so many like-minded people.
This is a little off subject with the forum title but has some relevance.

I did a small amount of testing with High voltage on parallel plates. This is not quite the same as cylinders since plate capacitors donít create the same inductance as a cylindrical capacitor can. Much the same way single wire inductors donít create the same capacitance that a bifilar can. Hmm, I wonder what would happen if you SS strips in parallel wound in a bifilar configuration...Would you have a high inductance capaciter? Anyway back to the HV. Along time back I tried tightly encapsulating plates in .065 Plexiglas. I tried this on both plates and one at a time. Applied voltage around of about 10kv. This cell was 6" PVC about 36" tall with a Plexiglas window cut out so I could see what was going on inside. I made a Plexiglas base that threaded into the cell so that I could use numerous plate configurations in the same cell. The plates consisted of 304L SS 3" x 24". With both plates encapsulated there was no visible H production. Maybe because of the plate spacing? I believe it was the anode but itís been some time so I canít remember which plate was encapsulated when this happen. I can look back at notes. The encapsulation started to expand Visibly. I quickly reached to cut the power but held back and decided to see what happen. A pressure was building up inside the Plexiglas. Until it finally cracked open and shorted out. Was this acting like a reveres fuel cell? The proton moving through a dielectric membrane (in this case Plexiglas) devoid of any electrons. I thought about recreating this experiment with a tube taped into the plexiglas to release the pressure but got busy and never returned to it.


Getting back to Bifilar. My understanding of Meyers process requires 2 coils in series but coupled in parallel. Connected in a way that allows electrons to flow in the same direction in each wire. Add to this the pulsing duty-cycle. In this arrangement the voltage would lead by 1/4. The voltage would spike and cascade at the plates during on time. Then the back EMF during the off time would draw the current back to the coil prior to it leaking into the water.

Has anyone ever noticed the spiral movement of Gas in and on top of the water from plate to plate? It looks to me like the gas is moving in a loop. This is easyer to see with plates then cilinders.
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  #54  
Old 07-10-2008, 06:17 PM
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Has anyone here had substantially better results with a high voltage resonant coil?
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  #55  
Old 07-13-2008, 02:49 AM
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after reading the tech brief, i was left more confused than i was before hand.
so i read the original WFC patent 4936961.

it made life ALOT simpler for me, told me what gauges to use for each coil/choke, how many winds and what size to make the core.

i know the tech breif might be a more advanced model, but i'm sure the things he mentions in the patent isn't stuff your allow to fudge the facts on.
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Old 07-14-2008, 05:46 AM
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Sorry for the double post, but i thought i should bump to make sure people see this info.

just read a patent for the control module, where the bifiler choke your worried about is used and sourced.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCproj...O9207861A1.pdf

that coil is for a MUCH MUCH more advanced circuit
have a look
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  #57  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:29 PM
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Hi

I have build my pulse generator and a WFC 2 SS 304 2 inch square 1/8 thick for test purpose. Gap 1mm

I'm using an transformer 12v -> 120. + wire is connected to the blocking diode one wire in the bifilar coil (2 times 300 turns gauge 19) and the + of the "water capacitor"(ER) -> back to the coil then - of e transformer.

My question is if there is no water in my cell i can get 1000V+ reading my MY64 multimeter, but when I add water I get 2V max why ?

Is it because of the bifilar coil is no more resonating with the cell ?

Thx

Gab
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  #58  
Old 07-17-2008, 08:02 AM
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need to insulate the tubes

As said Aaron, you need to insulate the tubes/pipes, in and out.

May be you could read this page and the others relating to Meyer:

http://waterfuel.100free.com/wf_meye...n_qiman13.html

regards ,
MDG
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Old 07-21-2008, 09:08 AM
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thank's a lot Aaron. I will applied this one to my next experiments.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:43 PM
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water capacitor

Hi, according to Meyer's info for the water cells, he shows he went towards insulating the tube sets with the Delrin encasement. I haven't seen any video of that or pics and perhaps he just wanted to cover that in patents, I don't know...but with the voltages he is working with and what I have seen....the dielectric of the delrin locks in the potential to create more of a real capacitor.

It keeps the voltage pressure in with less leakage.
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