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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #1  
Old 08-25-2007, 10:45 PM
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Hydrogen Boosters for Cars

Please use this thread for hydrogen boosters for cars. Tube or plate setups welcome. There are plenty of companies selling kits and I can't say who has the best. They are basically mini "Brown's Gas" generators which supplement the fuel/air for more power, less emissions and cleaner engine. But make sure you can manipulate the o2 sensor voltage so it doesn't sabotage your gains from the booster. I'll post more stuff here later and welcome anything anyone wants to contribute.
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:36 AM
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Eagle Research Hyzor

Eagle-Research: Fuel Savers Water As Fuel hyzor technology
Don't use it without the efie..info online
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:03 PM
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Denis Lee's company sells a hydrogen booster, but it's price tag is so freaking high it isnt worth the gains. they also put a tube magnet setup on the fuel line. this will ionize and compress the fuel, making the burn that much more efficient.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:43 PM
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warning

Dennis Lee does have his hands on some good stuff. Also, years of fraud taking money from people as well. I would steer very clear of anything he is offering.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:34 AM
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diy one

here is a link to a Do it yourself one...

Hydrogen Booster

haven't built it so i couldn't tell you how well it works.

it keep it in my bookmarked pages with a ton of other projects to try when i have time and money.

Hope it help any one interested.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:52 AM
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i met Dennis Lee last year, he reminds me of a cross between an TV evangelist and a used car salesman.
does anyone know what specifics he uses in his hydrogen booster? i cant figure out why it would cost over $2,000. you can purchase the Browns gas generator (for cutting/welding) for the same price!!

and according to his estimates, their hydrogen booster is not really that good.
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Old 09-02-2007, 07:32 PM
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o2 sensor mod required

Not sure Bryan.

But no matter what hydrogen boost someone uses, it is required to have a circuit that can manipulate the voltage coming from the o2 sensor. Otherwise, from the cleaner/leaner burn, the fuel computer will sabotage it by raising the voltage making more fuel pump in to richen it back up.
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:03 AM
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alright, maybe you can clarigy this. i have seen this argued amoung many different hydrogen experts.

what exactly is messing with the o2 sensor? if H-H-O is burned together it forms back into water... i do not think that an o2 sensor is designed to account for this... unless the water vapor is shorting out the o2 sensor.
it wouldnt be excess oxygen, because it is being recombined back to the hydrogen.

im not disputing the necessity of an EEFI, but just trying to understand exactly what is causing the increased voltage in the O2 sensor.

-bryan
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:57 AM
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alternator power schematic

Here are some diagrams for tapping power from the alternator to run a hydrogen booster with good amperage for good browns gas production:

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Old 09-03-2007, 05:07 AM
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o2 sensor details

Hi Bryan,

Basically the more carbon product goes past the o2 sensor, it sees it as being too rich. It sends a lower voltage to fuel computer to inject less gas to bring it down to 14.7 air to 1 part fuel (14.7:1).

If there is too little carbon product as a result of clean or lean burn, it sees it as being too lean. It sends a higher voltage to fuel computer to inject more gas to richen it up to 14.7:1.

A mixture too lean will be detrimental to an engine so that is true but there are plenty of ways to deal with it instead of the o2 sensor way that will sabotage mileage increases.

Also 14.7:1 is only theoretically the ideal mixture for burning (garbage science). If you have plasma ignition for example, you can burn very effectively 40:1 for practical use and up to 100:1 for demo purposes.

The best plug to get right now is Pulstar: Pulse Plugs - 20,000X More Powerful Than Spark Plugs. Greater Horsepower, Fuel Efficiency, Torque.
There are no plugs available that outperform these. Developed in part by
Sandia labs. 1 million watt pulse (because of time compressed discharge).

Robert Kurpa's firestorm's aren't available and would be the best so until
they are, need to go with what is avail.

There are lots of sites that go into detail on the o2 sensor ... so-called authority sites but they don't mention sabotaging gas mileage.

With a hydrogen booster, many people gain 15-70% boost in gas mileage but only when they can trick the o2 sensor. With the water gas, it isn't a lean mixture..only a lean gasoline mixture but no harm because there is great combustion enhancement. More power, less emission and less carbon buildup.

Another enhancement is to warm the fuel right before going into the intake. Not too hot but about the temp of a hot radiator.

Also, according to EPA (not implying they are an authority on anything), but at least they list the fact that if an o2 sensor is faulty, replacing it can boost mpg by up to 70%.

For racing application on street cars, you can do the opposite and richen the mixture to get some serious gas injection but of course lower mpg.

I think the concept is as basic as if there is less carbon for oxygen to bind to, there is more freed oxygen.




Quote:
Originally Posted by adam ant View Post
alright, maybe you can clarigy this. i have seen this argued amoung many different hydrogen experts.

what exactly is messing with the o2 sensor? if H-H-O is burned together it forms back into water... i do not think that an o2 sensor is designed to account for this... unless the water vapor is shorting out the o2 sensor.
it wouldnt be excess oxygen, because it is being recombined back to the hydrogen.

im not disputing the necessity of an EEFI, but just trying to understand exactly what is causing the increased voltage in the O2 sensor.

-bryan
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:49 AM
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O2 sensors...

Ok, its been awhile since I was 'in the trade'..but from what I remember - O2 sensors do indeed 'sense' the amount of oxygen in the exhaust.

They do this by comparing the amount O2 in the exhaust with the O2 in the atmosphere. If you have ever looked at an O2 sensor, and specifically the part of the housing that is external to the exhaust pipe, you will see the holes or slots where air can go in. The standard O2 sensor is actually a little current generator. It does this by chemical pressure. Yes, the chemical oxygen content difference between outside air to exhaust oxygen leads to them wanting to equalize, thus the free oxygen from the atmosphere will flow current (electrons) in conjunction with the catalyst (the plantinum in the sensor) at different rates according to the comparison of oxygen and its electrons in the exhaust stream.

A 'lean' mixture leads to misfire which, at the early stages, cannot be felt by you as a driver - any misfire results in a huge amount of oxygen going down the exhaust pipe (as well as a ton of hydrocarbons - unburnt fuel) and so the computer senses this and richens up the mixture. Thus, it is the oxygen level that is being sensed, NOT the amount of unburnt fuel in the exhaust!. The stoichiometretic ratio of 14.7 to 1 for gasoline is a 'best overall' number (coincidentally (or is it? lol) the same as atomospheric pressure at sea level - 14.7 lbs per sq in.) for power, fuel mileage, and emissions. For gasoline, this is also a measurement of pounds, thus - 14.7 pounds (not parts per) of air to 1 pound of gasoline. Any malfunction of the O2 sensor system where it will read lean (low voltage), air leaks upstream of the sensor, or misfire, is going to result in the computer richening the mixture = higher fuel usage, lower MPG. You can see why lean is low voltage because as the oxygen content of the exhaust goes up, approaching what is in the atmosphere, there would be less current generated (less potential difference between outside to inside oxygen), thus the opposite, a rich mixture has very little oxygen, causing a much higher electron flow (read in voltage by the computer).

I am not really that familiar with these fuel-extender products so I do not know why they need to fool with the O2 circuit except that somehow there must be a lean firing event or some other way that more oxygen is going down the pipe. O2 sensors in conjuction with the 'magic' 14.7 ratio are not primarily there to prevent preignition damage from lean mixtures but rather for the best overall (read: lowest common denominator) power, fuel economy, and emissions: Emphasis on emissions. Again, O2 sensors do not sense anything to do with the 'richness' in relation to the fuel content in the exhaust - they read oxygen levels in comparison to atmospheric oxygen content only.

Devices to bypass O2 sensors have existed for as long as there has been electronic fuel injection - the aftermarket propane and natural gas system manufacturers needed to do this to shut off the engine light that resulted from the different exhaust content of propane and natural gas conversions (from gasoline). However, this was a totally different situation than adding devices to the gasoline engines that still ran on gasoline like we're discussing. With the propane and NG, the engine was often set up with a gas analyzer for optimum running (while on the alternate fuel, since many were running dual fuel - gasoline and the alternate) on the alternate fuel and so the electronic box would just generate a typcial rich/lean swing to the computer to make it think all was well in exhaust land lol. If we were to play with the O2 sensor while STILL running on gasoline, it must be a more complicated device for the engine to run anywhere near right. There is a hierarchy system in the computer to still have a vehicle run, even with a totally malfunctioning O2 sensor, but it would have problems. As I mentioned above, the lean/rich swing of the standard O2 sensors (there are other designs as well) does not actually affect the actual content of the exhaust very much - it is a very minimal swing.

Ok, just for fun. Though the O2 sensor system plays around with some so-called magical 14.7:1 ratio of air to fuel - what is its real purpose??? Answer: The next component in the exhaust system - the catalytic converter. The swing about stoichiometric (simply means the optimum 14.7:1 ratio for gasoline) is to facilitate the function of the Cat. What is the purpose of the Cat? To 'burn' or oxidize unburnt fuel? Nope. Semantics maybe, but its main purpose is to store oxygen. Yes, during the lean swing of the burn cycle, excess oxygen goes downstream and is stored in the converter to facilitate the burning of unburnt fuel during the rich swing. This is actually done over a very small range of values in the literal content of O2 and HC's (Hydrocarbons). If you looked at this with a gas analyzer, you would see very little, if any, change in the values displayed. So the computer purposely adusts the swing of lean to rich to lean to give this pulse of oxygen to be stored in the Cat to help burn HCs. This is just the oxidization side of the Cat...Virtually all cars also have a Reduction side to deal with the Nox as well.

The whole science behind O2 sensors and Catalytic converters is amazingly complex from a chemistry/engineering side. I haven't dealt with this stuff for about 8 yrs, so the above is just off the top of my head and any errors in accuracy will be consistently blamed on that! Not too mention, I was working in the trade as an auto tech, not an engineer lol.

Intersting stuff - I love the free energy devices!!!

Stephen
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:23 AM
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o2 sensor

Thanks Stephen!

I forgot you're the resident expert in the emissions side of things.

For anyone who wants to see how to trick the sensor, this is the only online free plans I know of:

See non pdf version: http://better-mileage.com/memberadx.html

http://c4caraudio.com/mpgs/downloads...r%20Manual.pdf

Use at your own risk. I would buy one already assembled from Eagle Research.
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:01 PM
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thank you aaron and stephen, great explanations.

very complex issue here, i think ill leave it to the experts! hahaha
(that would be you two )
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:24 PM
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o2 trick from Eagle Research

ELECTRONIC FUEL INJECTION ENHANCER MANUAL (EFIE) In the past, fuel savers would not work when applied to fuel injection because fuel injection systems are actually designed to prevent efficient combustion!
Increasing the combustion efficiency of an engine increases the exhaust oxygen percentage. Most fuel injection engines use an oxygen sensor to infer the air/fuel ratio of the engine, the increased oxygen content in the exhaust is 'read' by the computer to be a lean mixture in the engine. The computer then adds extra fuel to bring the pollution back to 'normal'.
This problem led to the development of the Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer (EFIE, pronounced Ee-Fy). The EFIE allows you to apply an offset to the voltage coming from the oxygen sensor, so your vehicle's computer is completely unaware that the oxygen content of the exhaust has increased.
The EFIE manual explains exactly how to build an EFIE, using parts from a Radio Shack. The manual also completely details oxygen sensor function and why the EFIE works.
Your Fuel injection system stays original. (Picture shows home built EFIE)
Note: The cost of buying the components to build your own EFIE is usually greater than just buying the already assembled circuit from Eagle-Research.
ISBN 1-895882-14-1 16 pages 11 x 17----------------------------------------------------------------

EFIE DEVICE
We now sell completely assembled EFIE device. All you have to do is hook it up and drive!
The EFIE connects directly to your oxygen sensor and is compatible with ALL oxygen sensors.
The EFIE allows you to retain all your power and performance while taking advantage of increased mileage.
No matter what fuel saver device or method you use on your fuel injected vehicle, you'll need the EFIE to unleash the full potential of the fuel saver.
The EFIE alone can save 5% - 10% on your fuel bill, simply by 'leaning' your fuel mixture. We do not consider it as a fuel saver on it's own. It is designed as an ASSIST for fuel savers.
Vehicles with more than one oxygen sensor need an EFIE on each oxygen sensor.
Note: Your actual mileage gains will depend on the capability of the fuel saver(s) you apply to your vehicle.
SKU ER1-78-0020-----------------------

Above is from: Eagle-Research Products Page
I have friends who get real results with this exact unit.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:11 PM
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Anyone hooking up one of these "Boosters" should be connected after the MAF sensor as close to the the intake as possible, just before the throttle body. This eliminates the possibility of the Hydrogen igniting in the intake (breather) assembly.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:39 AM
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Cold weather

Has anyone an idea on what to use to keep these wfc's from freezing in the winter. I live in Pennsylvania where we can expect to see temps down to 0'F. And some of the other parts of the world think we've got it almost tropical.

I've read elsewhere about putting isopropyl alcohal into the mix, but that was a Pantone type system. Ideas or directions welcome.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark H Evans
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Old 11-08-2007, 04:15 PM
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New Device For O2 Sensor

This is a new device for anyone looking at adding a booster to their vehicle, but were freaked out about modifying the electronics of their O2 sensors and ECM.
It seems pretty logical, and since I have a chronic interest in this area, I will Guinea Pig it and advise the Board of my findings. I ran across it on the Water Car discussion board and apparently others there are using them now, and at the price you can't help but try!
Products of Protium Fuel Systems Research & Development
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:00 PM
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Protium Oxyisolator

Very interesting...just a plug to screw the sensor into. comes with 3 so that is good but might be able to find same threaded plugs at a hardware store.

Please let us know your results.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:28 AM
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Im Thinking The Same Thing.....

I believe you are right about finding them in the Hardware store. I have seen very similar fittings at Lowes. They look very similar to extensions for water heater pressure relief valves. They are Brass or copper probably but should be just as good. I will check tomorrow and let everyone know if they have them....
Just look for 18m 1.5 pitch threads and that is the size for the standard Bosch Sensor.
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:27 AM
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Question Diesel Engines? Question For Any GURU's Out There

I had someone ask about adding a booster to a Diesel engine. I have no clue about the electronics that control the fuel on a diesel engine and could not tell him the answers he was looking for. So perhaps someone here has knowledge enough to answer, what seems to be simple questions for someone who knows in more detail how a diesel works.
1) How would you restrict fuel flow?
(we are assuming that it is electronically controlled, but not as complicated as gasoline)
2) What other modifications would need to be done to run a "BOOSTER" and get better mileage?
(We understand that fuel cut would be mediocre compared to gasoline engine results, but any cuts in fuel cost would be helpful at this point!)
,
Mira
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:31 PM
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how about doing this with a stan meyer system? For people that don't know: The highly efficient pulse DC electrolysis? That could do away with gasoline at all could it not?
Running a combustion engine on pure H2 +O is risky though, it would need a bubbler to prevent backfire into the storage tank, and timing needs to be retarded. But still it would be fun.

I recall a website showing how to do this in great detail, can't remember its name though.
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:54 PM
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Save Your Money

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmeanie View Post
This is a new device for anyone looking at adding a booster to their vehicle, but were freaked out about modifying the electronics of their O2 sensors and ECM.
It seems pretty logical, and sense I have a chronic interest in this area, I will Guinea Pig it and advise the Board of my findings. I ran across it on the Water Car discussion board and apparently others there are using them now, and at the price you can't help but try!
Products of Protium Fuel Systems Research & Development
SAVE YOUR MONEY.

After being in the Auto Parts Business for over 35 years, I know a Spark Plug Non-Fouler (Anti-Fouler) when I see one. You can buy them at your local Autozone for around $4.99 a pair.

This mod has been pretty well proven. Google "o2 sensor" and you will find this all over the place. The best site I found was, I believe, a BMW site, but I couldn't find it again.

I believe the way it works is this: When you move the o2 Sensor Nose out of the direct exhaust stream, the Sensor sees "Less Oxygen". When the Computer reads "Less or Low Oxygen" from the Sensor, it thinks the Engine is running RICH and will LEAN out the fuel system, in other words, send LESS fuel to the engine. You can not just take the sensor out and plug the hole, it won't work. Part of the Sensors functioning is Heat related.

Here is how to do it:

1. First: Make sure there is enough room around the o2 Sensor to space it out, because the exhaust system moves around a lot.

2. Go to your local auto parts store and buy a pair of Non-Foulers (Anti-Foulers): Motormite 42009 or Dorman equivalent. They are 18mm for Ford spark plugs. Be sure to get the Gasket Seat, not the Tapered Seat.

3.This may actually be a good time to buy a NEW o2 Sensor. Most o2 Sensors need to be replaced in the 60,000 to 100,000 range. Check and see what the recommendation is for your vehicle. When an o2 Sensor goes bad, the Computer goes into "Limp In" mode. Which means, the motor will still run, (although poorly) but the Computer will set all the operating parameters into "Very Safe" zones, which includes "Running RICH".

4. Disconnect the Battery while working on the o2 sensor to reset the computer and to prevent any electrical problems.

5. Put one non-fouler in a vice and drill through it with a 1/2" drill bit. A drill press is best. This makes room for the o2 sensor head and opens up the end.

6. Carefully unscrew and remove the old o2 senor. If reusing the old Sensor, apply Anti-Seize to the threads and screw it into the drilled out anti-fouler. Now apply Anti-Seize to the threads of the Non-Fouler and reinstall into the exhaust pipe. Don't over tighten the Non-Fouler because the walls are pretty thin after drilling.

7. Some people will also add the second, undrilled non-fouler, between the exhaust pipe and the drilled non-fouler & o2 Sensor at this time. It's up to you. But I prefer to do it one step at a time. Be sure to use Anti-Seize on the threads.

REMEMBER: It may take 1 to 2 weeks for the Computer to relearn the system. DO NOT continue to drive if there is a lot of pre-ignition or detonation.

NOTE: Always use Anti-Seize on the threads. DO NOT Touch or get any Anti-Seize on the sensor head!!! It will ruin the Sensor. The o2 Sensor is actually a fairly delicate instrument.

Hope this Helps.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan H View Post
how about doing this with a stan meyer system? For people that don't know: The highly efficient pulse DC electrolysis? That could do away with gasoline at all could it not?
Running a combustion engine on pure H2 +O is risky though, it would need a bubbler to prevent backfire into the storage tank, and timing needs to be retarded. But still it would be fun.

I recall a website showing how to do this in great detail, can't remember its name though.
There are 2 places for Excellent Information.

Practical Guide to Free-Energy Devices
Go to Document D14.pdf

OS:Water Fuel Cell - PESWiki
H2EARTH will hopefully have their first fully functional prototype very soon.

I personally believe that HHO supplementation to Gasoline and Diesel is the easiest and most practical right NOW. You don't have to rework the engine.

Hope this helps
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:25 PM
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great tips

Thanks Racer,

This sounds like the cheapest and easiest o2 sensor mod.

George Wiseman recommends his own o2 circuit is not used by itself without any combustion enhancer because without it might run too lean and detonate.

That might be good advice with this setup as well...only use it with a water cell booster, fuel additive, etc... to ensure the slightly leaner mix will combust effectively.
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Old 11-16-2007, 07:22 PM
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anti fouler o2 sensor mod

This is really a cool setup Racer. I'm happy to learn about this and it is so much easier than making the circuit with the 555 and voltage regulators.

I found an autozone link to these:
AutoZone.com | Repair Info | Product Information - Spark Plug Non-Fouler

I printed out your instructions and there is one car I'll test it on.

Here are some pics of someone who drilled one out and even welded the two non-foulers together. Anyway, this helps to see the idea.
AudiWorld Forums: Plug anti-fouler O2 sensor mod seems to be working so far.

Here are some more great pics of this mod:
Club: JDM ~ View topic - 02 Simulator (DIY CEL Eliminator)




If we disconnect the car battery for a few hours or overnight, would that reset the fuel computer to learn it quicker?
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:52 PM
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Smile Thanks Racer!!!!

WOW....
See now that is what a site like this is supposed to be.....And thats why this forum is so much better than others out there.
The sharing of knowledge that is found on this site is outstanding, unlike other places where you bring up a topic and others talk down to you just because they are a little more knowledgeable in a certain area!
Thanks for your info and Im sure MANY Others here will appreciate the info, and your contributions to this site....
Thanks Again!!
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:01 AM
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Anti Fouler O2 Mod

So would we install this on ALL the o2 sensors or just the front ones before the CAT? Almost all the Mods Ive read have been people just installing on the rear o2 sensors to trick the ecu into thinking there is a cat installed. But the front o2's control the A/F mixture and thats the one we want to trick.
Im just curious if we should also place these after the cat so that all the sensors are sorta "Calibrated" together, you know what I mean?
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:23 AM
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Hi,

Thanks for the comments. I like teaching.

Thanks for the pictures Aaron. I actually had pics, but I haven't figured that out yet.

One of the reasons I suggested disconnecting the battery while working on it is to completely dissipate the electricity out of the system. If you've ever had powered speakers with the little red light on it, you know that the light takes awhile to go out AFTER you turn the power off. Your car's electrical system works the same way. Actually that's a characteristic of DC current. It doesn't dissipate immediately like AC. By the way, MOST things in the house are "DC". They convert the AC to DC to use it. On the car, it is probably gone in 1 minute, but I like to disconnect for at least 5 minutes. Turning on the headlights will speed it up.

Redmeanie. You're right. The Front o2 Sensors affect the A/F ratio while the o2's after the cat just verify that the cat is doing it's job. I would think that the rear cat sensor would usually be unaffected by a booster, because a booster actually Cleans the exhaust.

As a side note: If you have a car that is borderline in passing emissions, the best thing you can do before an Emissions Test is CHANGE THE OIL. It makes a HUGE difference.

Personally, I prefer not to run a vehicle with a computer. I want something that I can fix on the side of the road. If something goes wrong on the highway, you're at the mercy of someone else. When I redid my 1992 Pick Up, I completely eliminated the Computer, and the electric fuel pump. I have dual Ignition systems. The primary is an MSD with adjustable timing retard, (for my future booster). If it fails, I can reconnect a couple of wires in 2 minutes and be running again on the stock Ignition Box. Plus I always carry a box of essential parts (alt, fuel pump, belts, voltage reg, fuses, bulbs, etc.)

If and when I get a later model vehicle, I would prefer to use a completely adjustable, stand alone system. NOT the original OEM unit. But that's me.

Hope this helps.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:33 AM
Racer426 Racer426 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmeanie View Post
WOW....
See now that is what a site like this is supposed to be.....And thats why this forum is so much better than others out there.
The sharing of knowledge that is found on this site is outstanding, unlike other places where you bring up a topic and others talk down to you just because they are a little more knowledgeable in a certain area!
Thanks for your info and Im sure MANY Others here will appreciate the info, and your contributions to this site....
Thanks Again!!

Actually, the person that talks down to someone is the one with the problem.

The older I get, the more stuff I find out about that I didn't know that I didn't know about. And there's a lot of stuff I don't WANT to know about!!!



This is a Magnificent Journey we're on.
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:51 AM
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Redmeanie Redmeanie is offline
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Posts: 365
Racer:
Yes it's definetly easier to play with an older car.... SO much easier to work on! But here in the Lousy state of the Gulf Coast of Texas we have VERY STRICT emission laws on vehicles. (Strange that they are so tough on vehicles and yet across the bay there are 5 large oil refineries pumping god knows how many pollutants in the air 24/7 with NO repercussions.)
And because of this they will NOT allow backwards engineering. In other words no safety sticker. And that means you can't drive the vehicle on the roadway.
Also since mostly everyone around here drives a newer vehicle (because you almost have to to pass emissions), the goal is to come up with an easy to build, install and use system that will work on any vehicle.
I have a very promising design for a booster Im working on that is completely idiot proof and efficient. The only thing that had me concerned was the O2 issue, and well since you helped with that, it is no longer an issue.
Of course once it is finished (in a few weeks hopefully) I will post pic's and step by steps for everyone to use.
I will also be installing it in a Brand new mid size vehicle so that Calculation factors as far as MPG increases will be as accurate as possible. The new engine, electronics and other sensors should be at the top of their game without the fluctuations that would probably occur with an older vehicle.
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Last edited by Redmeanie; 11-18-2007 at 02:54 AM.
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