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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #1  
Old 08-14-2007, 05:44 AM
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Water Fuel Cell video schematic

Here is the schematic



This is the just bare minimum to duplicate the video you saw.
Do this first and once you have this then you can move on.

If you're not willing to condition the cell(s) first, you won't get
good gas production for little power. It just won't happen.

I'll post more soon.
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:49 AM
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don't be dissapointed by simplicity

this schematic seems too simple to do what the video shows but that is what will get you there.

do it that way first and then worry about doing it another way.

condition your cells this way, get it running, etc... then look to doing it with Bedini circuits,etc...
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:14 AM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Aaron

Thank you!
How big an inductor would you recommend, i.e. how many Henries?
Did you use an off the shelf inductor or did you wind it yourself?
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:05 PM
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Thanks Aaron! The simplicity of the circuit is, well, quite shocking! I'm wondering, though, if there's a material that can be used that has the dialectric properties described after 'conditioning' the stainless out of the box.

Hmm... Obviously an area needing more research.
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:34 PM
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inductor and more...

Hi Passion1,

I have no idea on the specs on the inductor.

I used 2.

The first I tried was just magnet wire about 26 guage about100 turns. It was about 2 inches long and about 1" diameter air core. I just wrapped this wire around a screwdriver handle and then slipped it off and put it as shown in the pic.

The 2nd was a spool of magnet wire on a spool about 2.5-3" tall and about 2" diameter. Was about 26 guage and the spool was about 75% full. The core of the spool was about 1/2" diameter. This one worked better than the smaller one. but really, there wasn't much difference in gas production.

With the 2nd "coil" inductor...I was of course able to get higher voltage with lower amps. It was that one I was using in the video I believe. I could keep cranking up the voltage and there still wasn't much current getting through but even as I cranked it up, the gas production did NOT increase. At about 12 volts and drawing 3 amps, that was about the max gas production any higher input didn't increase gas.

Now, when it was running, the spool of wire did get pretty hot obviously from restricting all that current. What this shows is very important. All that heat and wasted energy is obviously NOT making it to the cell meaning that what is actually producing that much gas is MUCH LESS than 12volts at 3 amps. That is what is leaving the power supply but that is NOT what is making the gas. 36 watts minus whatever is wasted in that inductor is really what is making the gas. How much less? I don't know but this is the important thing to observe from a hot inductor.

This gas was VERY powerful. I brought this to a friend's shop and we wanted to see it pop. LOL This stuff ain't no joke!

I put about 1-2 drops of dish soap in the cell to make some big bubbles to pop

I turned it off when one bubble was about 1/2 the size of a ping pong ball. My friend, who I thought was nuts lowered a match in his hand down towards the cell. I was about 12 feet away crouching down. Many of us have popped hydrogen bubbles from electrolysis and the hydrogen isn't that strong...poof poof....

He thought he was just going to get this little poof many of us had experienced.

Suddenly, BAAAANG... a very high pitched VEEEEEEEEEERY loud... very FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST pop...more like a loud PIIING went off. Scared me so bad I fell over on my butt. He was deaf in his ear for 3 days and that was enough to see that this gas is not just some electrolyzed hydrogen gas.

There are various strengths of this gas depending on how it is potentialized and/or destabilized by having electrons ripped from the oxygen. George Wiseman of Eagle-Research practical energy solutions...today! calls the 3rd higher brown's gas level hyper gas. the first 2 are lower strength (for same volume of gas).

Meyer's had various was of increasing the strength by stealing electrons from the oxygen supposedly making it very unstable and a lot more powerful.

I'll get into more of the Bedini voltage potential circuit applications for the water cell later but if people don't at least do a simple variac to dc bridge to cell system, they won't get very far I don't think. That is the easiest way to just condition the cells first...then can experiment with the voltage potential circuits.
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:04 PM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Aaron

I am going to buy myself a variac tomorrow but could not wait to experiment!
Thus I connected my cell to wall power (220V where I am) with a bridge rectifier and inductor as in your
schematic.
For a start I have decided to use distilled water.
When I switched on the power for a few seconds
I suddenly got lots of gas and what looked like white underwater flames coming from the tubes (20 cm long, 1.5mm gap inbetween tubes)!
For one moment I was quite shocked!! I assume that the tubes were arching even with a 1.5mm gap!?
This has never happened to me before. I have been using these specific tubes for many months now without any arching.
I disconnected the tubes and connected it to a 12V DC battery charger and again my tubes were giving a little bit of gas like usually without arching.
I reconnected the 220V for a few seconds and again got these white underwater light/flames and lots of gas.
My inductor (1.7 Henry) suddenly started smoking and I switched off before I could do any damage to the inductor.
The inductor was VERY VERY hot after only about 5-7 seconds of operation!
Next I inserted a 60W bulb next to the cell but this limited the current too much because now I had little gas production again.
It seems that the bulb is not the best solution to limit the current.

I will be buying a variac tomorrow and continue with tests......
Waiting on your next instructions with anticipation!!
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Old 08-15-2007, 02:46 AM
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Hello Passion
Another option is to insert a 330Volt AC @ 28uF Motor cap in one of the AC legs before the FWBR, This will reduce the current to the FWBR or anything down stream or between the cell on the DC side. This just an option that i use from time to time. Currently working a single conical tube arrangement with this setup to condition the tubes.
Also Aaron
Is the SS Cathode really necessary? The cathode is a non-consumable in this application so an Iron or A36 type steel will function while deducing the over all cost.
I have tested this and i have no corrosion occurring to the cathode, while the anode is potentially a consumable i.e. Cr & Fe.
What your take on this?

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Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:20 AM
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SS tubes

Passion1, be careful! hehe nice to have variable

Bill, I only used t304 tubes. If you don't get corrosion or anything, probably ok. While conditioning, just look if you start getting a white powder coating, if so, probably good to go.
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:14 AM
kenny_PPM kenny_PPM is offline
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Tubes source

Sorry this has probably been asked.

Where is a good source for the stainless tubes?

Kenny
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:14 AM
Bill Bill is offline
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Hi Aaron
Update - currently 36.68 E @ .9 I = 33.012 P. Lots of gas with the single cylinder setup. Vessel is a approx 1 L open at top and cloudy 30% of top area.
Gas is increasing as conditioning continues.
Passion1- Aaron is absolutely correct - a varable power supply is the way to go.
Thanks Aaron

Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:58 AM
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Hello Kenny
This Q really depends on your location, But McMaster-Carr might might be a good start. They sell in small lengths and carry various types of SS tubing.
Google them.
Good luck
Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 04:59 AM
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Thanks Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:01 AM
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Kenny
Heres another options for 304 SS
Verocious Motorsports > 304 stainless steel exhaust tubing, exhaust tube, exhaust components, stainless

Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:44 AM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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McMaster-Carr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Hello Kenny
This Q really depends on your location, But McMaster-Carr might might be a good start. They sell in small lengths and carry various types of SS tubing.
Google them.
Good luck
Bill
Hi folks,

McMaster-Carr is a great place to find ANYTHING for a project like this. Here is their site:

McMaster-Carr

Happy shopping,

Peter
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:52 AM
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Aaron
This is nuts, I added a blocking diode between the FWBR & the choke now the Current statius is E=34.62, I =0.3I for a P of 10.386 ! The Egas flow is still increasing. The choke i'm using is the primary side of a 120 volt E core Trans.
So the flow sheet is 120 Mains - one 24uF, 330 Volt AC motor Cap(one leg of mains) - FWBR - 1600uF smoothing electro cap across the DC side of the FWBR. Then a 1N4007 diode - Choke - amp meter - Anode - then Cathode straight back to the FWBR.
34.98 E @ 0.2 I = 6.996 Watts !!!! Nuts

Thanks
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:41 PM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Bill

Thanks for the advice! I have already ordered the variac and should be receiving it within a day or two.
Are you getting similar amounts of gas as Aaron with only 6.996 Watts and simply using the setup in your posting above!?

When you say you have used 34.98V, does that mean you have adjusted your variac to only output 34.98V or how did you measure it?
How many winds on your choke and what gauge wire did you use?
What's the size of your tubes and gap between inner and outer?
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:23 PM
kenny_PPM kenny_PPM is offline
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Conditioning Circuit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Aaron
This is nuts, I added a blocking diode between the FWBR & the choke now the Current statius is E=34.62, I =0.3I for a P of 10.386 ! The Egas flow is still increasing. The choke i'm using is the primary side of a 120 volt E core Trans.
So the flow sheet is 120 Mains - one 24uF, 330 Volt AC motor Cap(one leg of mains) - FWBR - 1600uF smoothing electro cap across the DC side of the FWBR. Then a 1N4007 diode - Choke - amp meter - Anode - then Cathode straight back to the FWBR.
34.98 E @ 0.2 I = 6.996 Watts !!!! Nuts

Thanks
Bill

Thanks for the material sources folks.

Bill is this the circuit that you are currently using?:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.JPG (28.2 KB, 442 views)
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:20 PM
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Yes, Kenny what u have Drawn looks correct.

Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:30 PM
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Yes the gas gas production is equal to or greater than Aarons vid. I have been working the electrolysier game for several years now and never produce this much gas with this little wattage.
Choke is a primary side of a old 120 volt E core transformer. Will get the ohmage of it for you later.
Tube size 1" anode, 7/8" cathode Approx 1/32" clearance between ID and OD
Will get Pic's latter to day.
I put this together from stuff (juck)i had just laying around to get and idea of how the CKT would work.

Hope this helps
Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:40 PM
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Passion1
The E reading is across the cell, Anode to Cathode. i am using no variac at this time. The I is control by the cap in the mains. I used Rain water for the Diaelectric and the reaction (electro) started out real slow as expected but gas production increased and still seems to be increasing.
Have to get back to work now but will write more this evening
Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 07:13 PM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Bill

Thank you for the info!
Though you read a potential difference of 35V across the cell, aren't you effectively using 110V as input?
In other words, should one not maybe calculate the total power consumption as 110V x 0.2 A = 22W?
Anyway, even 22W would still be a good figure!
Can't wait to see your pics!
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Old 08-15-2007, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passion1 View Post
Bill

Thank you for the info!
Though you read a potential difference of 35V across the cell, aren't you effectively using 110V as input?
In other words, should one not maybe calculate the total power consumption as 110V x 0.2 A = 22W?
Anyway, even 22W would still be a good figure!
Can't wait to see your pics!
Well Actually u are totally correct, except if looked at that way the open circuit E is 166.3 due to the smoothing cap, i guess. I went and got a different meter because i could not get an accurate line E, Just rechecked and the open E is 121.1. The open CKT with the Smoothing cap is 166.3
When attached to the Cell the E is 38.8. Amps running the same @ 0.2 I
So if the Open CKT E is 166.3 then the actual P is 33.26 watts.
Dam why did'nt i think of that !!
Sorry for all the bad readings guy's

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Old 08-15-2007, 09:46 PM
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Worst than I thought !

I placed a 1 ohm 10 watt resistor in the CKT between the Cathode and the Negative. Will i measured a 0.507 voltage drop across the resistor. This being the case 166.3 open E X 0.507 E drop = 84.3141 watts Right???? Dam

Well back to the drawing board

Bill
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:28 PM
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BACKEMF Watch out

As most everyone knows, just this for the few beginners who may not realize:

If you pulse a inductor coil with high voltage, the back emf from the coil can be many, many times higher in voltage, even though brief in time. So a pulse of even 120 dc can have a back emf pulse of up to 600 volts, YES it can beginners, I have overheated and blown up capacitors, voltage supplies and mosfets and _________ fill in the blank here during my years testing cicruits, as the rest of you experienced have.

So the point is, overrate your blocking diode in voltage by 4-6 x at least !!


Kenny
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny_PPM View Post
As most everyone knows, just this for the few beginners who may not realize:

If you pulse a inductor coil with high voltage, the back emf from the coil can be many, many times higher in voltage, even though brief in time. So a pulse of even 120 dc can have a back emf pulse of up to 600 volts, YES it can beginners, I have overheated and blown up capacitors, voltage supplies and mosfets and _________ fill in the blank here during my years testing cicruits, as the rest of you experienced have.

So the point is, overrate your blocking diode in voltage by 4-6 x at least !!


Kenny
YEP YEP YEP

Thanks Kenny
Bill
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Old 08-16-2007, 02:07 AM
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Changed CKT

OK After my last blunder I hope i get this one correct
I have changed the CKT by adding Two more 24uF in searies to reduce the current even more. I also replace the transformer choke with a 475 uH air coil. The spec is 140 turns of # 26 AWG on a PVC 2" dia tube. Now I do even see the the amp gauge even move, but still have great Egas flow off the tubes. I have not done quanitative measurement yet, but appears to be about the same.
Input E open 166.3
Across the 1 Ohm Resis = 335.5 mV or 335.5 mA
So This = 55.79 watts
Must be a bad amp gauge ?
Still working this
Any suggestions welcome other than go home Bill would be great.

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Bill
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:33 AM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Bill

Thanks for the updated info.
55Watts is not bad if you have LOTS of gas!
So the questions really is, how much gas are you producing in terms of liters per minute?
I am looking forward to Aaron giving us some more guidance how to bring down our overall power consumption!

Kenny

Thanks for the warning on back EMF!
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:25 AM
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extra diode

Bill, I forgot to add that to the drawing but I had an extra diode maybe 1n4001??? between the bridge and inductor.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Aaron
This is nuts, I added a blocking diode between the FWBR & the choke now the Current statius is E=34.62, I =0.3I for a P of 10.386 ! The Egas flow is still increasing. The choke i'm using is the primary side of a 120 volt E core Trans.
So the flow sheet is 120 Mains - one 24uF, 330 Volt AC motor Cap(one leg of mains) - FWBR - 1600uF smoothing electro cap across the DC side of the FWBR. Then a 1N4007 diode - Choke - amp meter - Anode - then Cathode straight back to the FWBR.
34.98 E @ 0.2 I = 6.996 Watts !!!! Nuts

Thanks
Bill
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:29 AM
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more measurement

also, the watts X seconds is joules of actual work going into the cell and that has to be X by the duty cycle that the pulse is on. how to calculate joules in work the gas gives for COP readings? more difficult but can get pretty dang accurate on the input side at least.



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Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Well Actually u are totally correct, except if looked at that way the open circuit E is 166.3 due to the smoothing cap, i guess. I went and got a different meter because i could not get an accurate line E, Just rechecked and the open E is 121.1. The open CKT with the Smoothing cap is 166.3
When attached to the Cell the E is 38.8. Amps running the same @ 0.2 I
So if the Open CKT E is 166.3 then the actual P is 33.26 watts.
Dam why did'nt i think of that !!
Sorry for all the bad readings guy's

Bill
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:34 AM
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high voltage spike

and the collapsed high voltage spike from the inductor moves towards the cell since it can't go back to the power supply so the water gets that

Would you say that is accurate Kenny?



Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny_PPM View Post
As most everyone knows, just this for the few beginners who may not realize:

If you pulse a inductor coil with high voltage, the back emf from the coil can be many, many times higher in voltage, even though brief in time. So a pulse of even 120 dc can have a back emf pulse of up to 600 volts, YES it can beginners, I have overheated and blown up capacitors, voltage supplies and mosfets and _________ fill in the blank here during my years testing cicruits, as the rest of you experienced have.

So the point is, overrate your blocking diode in voltage by 4-6 x at least !!


Kenny
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