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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #61  
Old 08-21-2007, 11:05 PM
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setup

Hi Passion1,

The setup is the same as the schematic except that I sometimes had a diode after or before the "inductor."

The single diode was a 1N4001 I believe. I'll post vids, pics, etc.. of the
current setup being conditioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by passion1 View Post
Aaron

Excellent efficiency!!
Could you please clarify the exact setup (including diode specifics) you have used for the 24 watts.
How does this setup differ from the schematic in the first posting of this thread?
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  #62  
Old 08-21-2007, 11:06 PM
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conditioning observations

Hi all,

Been conditioning my tubes for a couple days.

Started with negative on outside tubes and positive on inside tubes.

It seems that only the negative tube gets the white powder coating
at least in this short of run. I'm conditioning with 2 amps at 5 volts
for a big whopping 10 watts.

After a while, I tore down everything and let the tubes dry and the
outside tubes were very, very white looking compared to the inside
tubes. The only rust/crud I get is from an alligator clip on the positive
that was not stainless and interesting that if everything just sits for a
while (referring to few years ago) without running the cell, the flaked
off rust will coat very strongly to the stainless steel tubes.

when running, the negative tube will then repel all the rust right off of
them.

What I noticed yesterday was that when I switched positive to the
outside tubes and negative to the inside tubes, the white powder coating
was repelled off the positive tubes, went into the water and settled on
the floor of the cell.

The white powder coating seems to be obviously positive charge since it
repels from the positive tubes and the negative tubes pick up a white
powder coating.

Does anyone know if the powder coating has been analyzed to see what
it is made of?

Is this calcium ions in the tap water being plated to the negative tubes?

Does anyone know if conditioning with only distilled water will do this?

Also, people using distilled water from a store is usually not 100% distilled
and DOES have very small mineral content and is almost never truly pure
distilled unless it is considered medical grade distilled water where then it
is truly pure. Therefore if people use low grade distilled water in the cells
and find that it takes forever and ever to condition, maybe because there
isn't enough calcium in the water to do it quick enough.

I wonder if adding some liquid ionic calcium supplement to the water will
speed the process of conditioning. It has always been obvious that the
conditioning coating resists electron current for the fact that over time,
I can get higher voltage for less amps with the identical setup so the
coating is definitely a current restrictor.
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  #63  
Old 08-21-2007, 11:16 PM
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metal hydrides

Roger Billing pioneered some areas of hydrogen applications. Not many people seem to be familiar with his work.

Anyway, the world's safest way to store hydrogen is in a tank with various metals that the hydrogen bonds to. You can shoot an armor piercing bullet through the tank and NO explosion since the H isn't in an explosive form...it is bound to the metals. Upon slow heating of the tank, the H is released so only as much is needed can be released...so in a car, it is many times safer than a gasoline tank.

Now, is it possible that the H is being stored to some level in the metal tubes by bonding to some of the metal in the tubes?

" consisting mostly of iron, with a carbon content between 0.02% and 1.7 or 2.04% by weight (C:100010,8.67Fe), depending on grade. Carbon is the most cost-effective alloying material for iron, but various other alloying elements are used such as manganese and tungsten"

Manganese was one of the metals used in the metal hydride tanks...can't remember the others.

Billings has a book "World Hydrogen View" I think and has lots of info on this stuff....I also have some vids by him that I don't think I've seen online. Reversible fuel cells, etc...

Anyway, if anyone knows about hydrogen/metal bonding, maybe this is part of the process where the tubes are storing a massive amount of hydrogen atoms in the metal and I wonder if some of the oxygen is being stored as well???

Anyway, just some thoughts.
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  #64  
Old 08-22-2007, 08:01 AM
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conditioning process > 10watts

YouTube - Water Fuel Cell (WFC) - conditioning the tubes
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  #65  
Old 08-22-2007, 12:20 PM
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@Aaron,

Perhaps it would be useful to send some of that powder to a chem lab for analysis. That might point the way towards a more suitable material for the tubes than stainless steel. Also, have you measured the capacitance of one of the tube assemblies after conditioning? That would be a very useful measurement as well.

As for the hydrization theory, it seems plausible, but I'm no metallurgist/chemist so I couldn't tell you if that's correct or not.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:10 PM
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powder

hi Shamus, sending the powder in would definitely do it.

someone posted this at youtube:

"
lookatthewholething (3 weeks ago) Marked as spam
I've heard about conditioning the stainless so it doesn't turn brown in a lot of these electrolytic cells. If you use passivated stainless steel you shouldn't run into this problem. The brown is the surface iron that is in the SST. You can learn how to passivate on the internet. You shoudn't have to wait a week then. Just a thought"

Feature Article - How To Passivate Stainless Steel Parts (full article)

There is no universal agreement on the precise mechanics of how passivation works. But it is certain that a protective oxide film is present on the surface of passive stainless steel. This invisible film is considered to be extremely thin, less than 0.0000001 inch thick, which is about 1/100,000 the thickness of a human hair!
Passivation is designed to maximize the inherent corrosion resistance of stainless steel parts after machining. A clean, freshly machined, polished or pickled stainless steel part automatically acquires this oxide film from exposure to oxygen in the atmosphere. Under ideal conditions, this protective oxide film completely covers all surfaces of the part.

















so if it is on neg tube and o is positive, then maybe it is oxygen embedded on the metal?
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  #67  
Old 08-23-2007, 12:43 AM
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if it is on neg tube and o is positive, then maybe it is oxygen embedded on the metal?

very likely
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  #68  
Old 08-23-2007, 03:21 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Doubts on Oxide...

Aaron, Kenny, et al...

It is reasonable to suspect that the white coating is some precipitate of the electrical process. The question is, what is the material? The problem with the "oxide" idea is that stainless steel is mostly iron, and iron is not known for forming "white" oxides. FeO (standard rust) is a reddish orange color. Fe2O3 is Hematite, which is a brown color. Fe3O4 is Magntite, which is black.

Titanium, Tin, and Zinc form white oxides, but these materials are not present that we know of.

The simplest explanation might be that the precipitate is coming from the water. In steam distillers, the boilers tend to "scale up" with the minerals deposited after the water is boiled away. Much of this scale material is "whitish" and consists mainly of Calcium. By observation, we can clearly see that the precipitate is NOT forming on all surfaces, so it is also reasonable to conclude that it is being "electro-plated" to the surfaces it does appear on. It is also reasonable to assume that the dissolved minerals in the tap water will have to be left behind as the water is converted into Hydrogen and Oxygen.

This leaves us with no identified example of a similar process. By observation, we can see that the "white material" acts as a current limiter. If the material is Calcium (or the full spread of dissolved minerals) and it is coming from the tap water used in the cell, the following question arises. Will the deposition of the "white material" continue until NO CURRENT can pass through the cell anymore? If this happens, will the cell continue to make gas for free (voltage only), or stop working all together?

Only long trials and continuous "conditioning" of the tubes will answer these questions.

In any case, the appearance of the "white material" and its beneficial effect on the efficiency of the process is a fascinating discovery.

Peter
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  #69  
Old 08-23-2007, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
In any case, the appearance of the "white material" and its beneficial effect on the efficiency of the process is a fascinating discovery.

I will try to use the purest form of distilled water that I can find when I condition mine. If it is calcium as I have also heard others mention, it should not show up in the 'almost' pure distilled water.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmeyer View Post
Hi Bill,

I updated Kenny's diagram to include the more recent information on your construction.

Could you please confirm that this is correct.

Thanks.
Hi Opmeyer
Well it looks pretty close, except that i change the smoothing Cap from the 1600 mike to a 1300 mike and I added two more diodes to the one i had, so i am now running three 1N4007's all together. Still waiting on the watt meter, but i am making alot of gas( very comparable to Aaron's vid, but at 16 watts. I also added a oscillator to pulse the 166.3 DC at 32.48 Hz currently.
I did not want to post this info until i had a chance to verify with the watt meter. The reading is from my hand held amp (V/Ohm)meter put in line for a direct reading. No heat after 20 or so hours of continuous running. I fined though that the Oscillator needs tweaked every so often due to the changes to the water in the cell. It appears that I'm ripping some of the CR, FE out of the 316L tube(Anode), because i am seeing a orangious color Precip forming on the top of the water.

When the new meter gets here I post more. The Oscillator I already posted info on, but no CKT for it. If this is what i believe it is I'll post the Osc. CKT.

More to come
Bill
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  #71  
Old 08-24-2007, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Aaron, Kenny, et al...

It is reasonable to suspect that the white coating is some precipitate of the electrical process. The question is, what is the material? The problem with the "oxide" idea is that stainless steel is mostly iron, and iron is not known for forming "white" oxides. FeO (standard rust) is a reddish orange color. Fe2O3 is Hematite, which is a brown color. Fe3O4 is Magntite, which is black.

Titanium, Tin, and Zinc form white oxides, but these materials are not present that we know of.

The simplest explanation might be that the precipitate is coming from the water. In steam distillers, the boilers tend to "scale up" with the minerals deposited after the water is boiled away. Much of this scale material is "whitish" and consists mainly of Calcium. By observation, we can clearly see that the precipitate is NOT forming on all surfaces, so it is also reasonable to conclude that it is being "electro-plated" to the surfaces it does appear on. It is also reasonable to assume that the dissolved minerals in the tap water will have to be left behind as the water is converted into Hydrogen and Oxygen.

This leaves us with no identified example of a similar process. By observation, we can see that the "white material" acts as a current limiter. If the material is Calcium (or the full spread of dissolved minerals) and it is coming from the tap water used in the cell, the following question arises. Will the deposition of the "white material" continue until NO CURRENT can pass through the cell anymore? If this happens, will the cell continue to make gas for free (voltage only), or stop working all together?

Only long trials and continuous "conditioning" of the tubes will answer these questions.

In any case, the appearance of the "white material" and its beneficial effect on the efficiency of the process is a fascinating discovery.

Peter
Hi Peter

There is a great possibility that the white pricip is comeing from the tap water that Arron is using i.e. Ca, Mg, etc. as a result of the electrolysis.

Just some thought's
Bill
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  #72  
Old 08-24-2007, 04:19 AM
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today's testing

Hi everyone,

Worked on the cell with Peter today for a bit working on some very bare basic measuring, etc... We aren't working on gas production at the moment but setting up testing protocols, etc... so at least we know what we're looking at. We did quite a bit of measuring just on the simple system and found some very interesting anomalies. More testing on this side of things before we're ready to report any specifics.

The brown gunk, which forms may be simply rust from iron leaching out of positive tube or oxidized rust from iron content in the water. But interesting how it keeps accumulating so maybe is from the positive tube.
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  #73  
Old 08-24-2007, 10:59 PM
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Hi, Aaron. Why are you using the 110 AC with rectifier? Is this just to condition the tubes? After they are conditioned and it is being run from a 12v battery, would you get the same amount of gas? And if I wanted to make a 7 tube generator, how would I condition it? Or would I need to condition each set of tubes individually?

Thanks,

Dick
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  #74  
Old 08-25-2007, 11:22 AM
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conditioning ac to bridge

Hi Dick,

With that ac and bridge, I have it turned up so only 5 volts 2 amps is hitting the cell. That is just to condition the tubes and check the different properties of conditioning. It seems there is no consensus as to the tube properties, coatings, conditioning stats, etc...

You can condition them all at the same time if all inner tubes are wired together and all outer tubes are wired together.

I don't know if the 7 tube setup is optimum..just what i have. Meyer's did demos with 9 tubes at 18" long each. Smaller diameter too I think.
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  #75  
Old 08-25-2007, 11:32 AM
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Hi Aaron,
here's a great video about this white powder on the tubes.
Lost Secrets of the Sacred Ark - Quantum Physics Science.

I'm sorry if the link was already posted earlier.
Jetijs
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Old 08-25-2007, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmeyer View Post
Hi Bill,

I updated Kenny's diagram to include the more recent information on your construction.

Could you please confirm that this is correct.

Thanks.

Hi,
I'm more junior than you, so pardon the dumb questions. After conditioning the cells with this device, could it be run to generate the gas, just by disconnecting the 110v and connecting a 12v battery?

Also, I understand that this group is about designing a better device for generating the gas and not about connecting it to operate a car or other vehicle, but maybe someone can advise me where to go to find discussions about the successful application of this device.

Thanks,

Dick
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  #77  
Old 08-25-2007, 10:40 PM
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12v battery to cells

Hi Dick,

It would make gas but if just straight connection, would just be very low power electrolysis.

For real Meyer replication, I'm going to be putting 30,000+ volts to the tubes with as little current as possible. Basically ripping the water apart instead of separating gas with current.

For use in car, I'm very interested in this just make sure to be able to tune the voltage from the o2 sensor otherwise, with the cleaner leaner burn, the o2 sensor will tell your computer to pump more gas to richen it back up towards 14.7:1. All fuel injection systems are designed to guarantee you never get good gas mileage.

lets start a tread in the main section on hydrogen boosters for cars.
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  #78  
Old 08-26-2007, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
For real Meyer replication, I'm going to be putting 30,000+ volts to the tubes with as little current as possible. Basically ripping the water apart instead of separating gas with current.

I like the hi voltage a lot, I like the high frequency even better. Tesla has said that he could heat and cool a room wirelessly with just voltage potential at ultra high frequency.

I wonder what it would happen in the gas cell?
say 100 megaherz, no current flow, 30,000 volts.
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:27 AM
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high voltage

I was thinking of the 30-60khz frequency range. Not sure of anyone using 100mhz in water. Do you know of a simple switch to go to those frequencies?

The faster you can compress the potential in time, the more the voltage potential cranks up on the radiant spike. Quick off/on time.

Secrets of Cold War Technology by Gerry Vassilatos has references to the heating and cooling in a room with the high voltage high frequency.

In one book "ELECTRICITY AT HIGH PRESSURES AND FREQUENCIES Henry L. Transtrom" available through Lindsay's Technical Books actually has a picture of one coil emitting some white light as Tesla mentioned he could also create light. That book has a pic of one coil at high frequency and high pressure and the man has his face up to the coil feeling the light on his face trippy. That is a very cool book with the old lingo and references.
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
as Tesla mentioned he could also create light. That book has a pic of one coil at high frequency and high pressure and the man has his face up to the coil feeling the light on his face [/SIZE]

I don't know of a circuit just yet, I am stiill looking into it also. At a 100 million cycles a second I dont see much if any current flowing either, with that small of a rise time.

At area 51 it has been said, underground in sealed rooms, a engineer was asked to study advanced propulsion, in the sealed room he was in , there was no light source no light fixture anywhere in the sealed room no light source anywhere yet the room was fully lit illuminated. It has been said that the illumination was taken from Tesla's ideas of very high frequency voltage potential, and the atoms in the air themselves were giving off light from it.

Tesla also claimed to light up the darkness over the ocean at night wirelessly, locally.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:03 AM
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Hi all,

as a starting point for hi-freq/hi-voltage tests maybe a microvawe owen circuit would do, but if you do that be very careful and keep your hands off the capacitor or make shure it is discharged. It'd be nice to to modify the circuit in order to be able to modify the duty cycle to a very short on time (10% or so if not less...), and then try to bring the whole thing (circuit+cell) into resonance. Just a thought.

best regards

Mario
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
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It appears that I'm ripping some of the CR, FE out of the 316L tube(Anode), because i am seeing a orangious color Precip forming on the top of the water.
Are you saying that the water is going orange? I have that occuring too. Then after an hour or 2 it creates a black muck on the water surface. (tap water only tho, distilled is stays clear)
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Well it looks pretty close, except that i change the smoothing Cap from the 1600 mike to a 1300 . BILL
This capacitor will smooth out the ripple on the DC after the FWBR. So it wont be 120Hz dc. But now you are pulsing it anyway, did you use a Buz350 for that? I will post a circuit design for a better FREQ GEN.

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I also added a oscillator to pulse the 166.3 DC at 32.48 Hz currently.
You mean 166.3 VOLTS DC? What country gives 166.3 Volts?
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:15 PM
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:17 PM
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Freq Gen Circuit

The above circuit should be checked by an electronics engineer, I just finished it and am waiting for a reply from my friend who is more skilled that I am at design.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:29 PM
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updated. thanks Bill.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:56 AM
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orange color

It seems that depending on the color of the brownish or orangish color, it is iron in the water oxidizing or the iron being leached out of the positive tubes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by opmeyer View Post
Are you saying that the water is going orange? I have that occuring too. Then after an hour or 2 it creates a black muck on the water surface. (tap water only tho, distilled is stays clear)
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:11 AM
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choke modification

check out attachment.
this is what Meyer's is doing with the choke. His schematics he shows one at + and one at - tube

they are bifilar wound on same core of same turns. check out tech brief for details.

if there are 140 turns 26awg, wrap another 140 turns on top of that in exact same direction. the end that is connected to inside tube, connect outside tube to the new wire on that same end. the other end of new wire, connect to the negative source.

in this configuation the magnetic fields in the bifilar choke will oppose each other. this is exactly what Meyer's is showing. I will start a new thread just on the bifilar choke so we can put it all on the table.

also, I am leaning to totally using outside tube as positive and inside as negative.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2modify.jpg (43.5 KB, 118 views)
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opmeyer View Post
This capacitor will smooth out the ripple on the DC after the FWBR. So it wont be 120Hz dc. But now you are pulsing it anyway, did you use a Buz350 for that? I will post a circuit design for a better FREQ GEN.



You mean 166.3 VOLTS DC? What country gives 166.3 Volts?
Hi
120 volt mains, the rectifier, smoothing cap bumps it up to 166.3 DC
I also checked the freq. before i installed the Oc and had 119.2 Hz. I looked at the dc with my scope and still had small a ripple in the DC so the the smoothing cap did not take all the freq out of the DC.

As for the orange precip, yes it is still showing up, but not black precip as of yet.
The only time I have seen the black precip make a showing was when a Salt was present in the water. I verified this by delibrately added NaCl to a 316L alloy test cell.
I wonder if your water source has a salt of some kind present?

Thanks for posting the CKT. I will look into.
Regards
Bill
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
check out attachment.
this is what Meyer's is doing with the choke. His schematics he shows one at + and one at - tube

they are bifilar wound on same core of same turns. check out tech brief for details.

if there are 140 turns 26awg, wrap another 140 turns on top of that in exact same direction. the end that is connected to inside tube, connect outside tube to the new wire on that same end. the other end of new wire, connect to the negative source.

in this configuation the magnetic fields in the bifilar choke will oppose each other. this is exactly what Meyer's is showing. I will start a new thread just on the bifilar choke so we can put it all on the table.

also, I am leaning to totally using outside tube as positive and inside as negative.
Thanks Aaron
I will get to work on this and let you know how its works out, I am glad U pointed this out, as i do recall from the tech brief the bifilar choke.

Regards
Bill
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