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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #31  
Old 08-16-2007, 10:45 AM
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power consumption

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Originally Posted by passion1 View Post
I am looking forward to Aaron giving us some more guidance how to bring down our overall power consumption!
Passion1,

For sure the cells need a good coating on them. That is what I have personally found and other's may find something else.

It just takes tweaking of matching the inductor, tube size and spacing, type of water and the volts/amps/hz, etc...

Every cell will have it's own resonant frequency where you get the most for least input. If a Bedini energizer is hooked to it, depending on the impedance of the water capacitor, it will self regulate the speed and therefore frequency that the energizer will run at... like affecting a car engine by plugging various amounts of of exhaust out the pipe...too much and you stall the engine too much back pressure keeps it from turning over...have too large of an exhaust then not enough back pressure to get good torque/power.

Similar analogy has to be meditated on for this water cell stuff.

With the solid state Bedini circuits..self oscillating, those too will find their own frequency on a water cell UNLESS, the output is going to a capacitor bank and the cap bank is then triggered to the cell with a 555 circuit like Meyer.

Everyone should get the Free Energy Generation book by Bearden and look at Bedini's circuits...the overall concept is identical to what Meyer was doing.

Meyer did it in a more complicated fashion and didn't understand the mechanism of the voltage potential as well. maybe he did I don't know.

John Bedini does it in the most slick way that I can imagine and I can only imagine it because he taught everyone. Much more simple and much more efficient. Getting that radiant spike to the battery or getting it to a water cell. Meyer was obviously doing everything he could to restrict current and get VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. That is what Bedini is the master at.

The batteries have to be conditioned and so do these tubes....and I would imagine plates too but I haven't spent much time with plates.

Anyway, the cell needs to be conditioned for the best efficiency. In my opinion.
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  #32  
Old 08-16-2007, 11:51 AM
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Hi Aaron
How doU cal the back EMF for this. boy do I feel dumb?
Bill
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  #33  
Old 08-16-2007, 01:02 PM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Aaron

Thank you for the info!
For the setup in your video, did you use the Bedini SG circuit or the solid state circuit in the book "Free Energy Generation" by Bearden?
Did you simply replace the variac with the Bedini circuit?
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  #34  
Old 08-16-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
and the collapsed high voltage spike from the inductor moves towards the cell since it can't go back to the power supply so the water gets that

Would you say that is accurate Kenny?
Aaron
I think that point has been debated by many ppl without a agreed upon answer, it is still unclear to me. To capture bemf usually requires a floating ground isolated from the driving circuit. And can be done with the right circuit.

It appears in this circuit that although yes the backemf is blocked in direction by the reverse diode, the collapsing backemf is also in the form of a opposite polarity of the pulse. So my initial thought is if it did move towards the cell it would now be negative biased and repel the negative charged cathode tube. Working against you much like a dc motor does. BUT I could be wrong on that one. Also I have read John Bedini has described the bemf as not the driving force in radiant energy collection.

Maybe Peter Lindemann could comment on the bemf force in this circuit!

Kenny
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:37 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Measuring power imput

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Originally Posted by Bill View Post
OK After my last blunder I hope i get this one correct
I have changed the CKT by adding Two more 24uF in searies to reduce the current even more. I also replace the transformer choke with a 475 uH air coil. The spec is 140 turns of # 26 AWG on a PVC 2" dia tube. Now I do even see the the amp gauge even move, but still have great Egas flow off the tubes. I have not done quanitative measurement yet, but appears to be about the same.
Input E open 166.3
Across the 1 Ohm Resis = 335.5 mV or 335.5 mA
So This = 55.79 watts
Must be a bad amp gauge ?
Still working this
Any suggestions welcome other than go home Bill would be great.

Regards
Bill
Bill,

I've been watching you struggle to measure how much power your cells are using over the last few days. You are measuring your inputs as if they were pure DC. Putting capacitors in series with the AC line current, and then running an inductor and a capacitive load, like the Egas Cell, does strange things to the POWER FACTOR of your AC inputs.

I highly recommend that you purchase the little Kill-A-Watt meter for $35 and simply MEASURE your inputs at the wall plug. This meter is good for up to 1800 watts, and measures volts, amps, watts, vars, power factor, and kwh's over a timed run. I believe you will see that your true wattage is lower than the DC measurements currently suggest.

One more thing. Adding your little resistor to measure the currents SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERS the power factor of a circuit like this. You may be altering the real power consumption by adding the resistor.

Keep up the great work.

Peter
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:21 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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My Current Understandings on Back EMF

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Originally Posted by kenny_PPM View Post
Aaron
I think that point has been debated by many ppl without a agreed upon answer, it is still unclear to me. To capture bemf usually requires a floating ground isolated from the driving circuit. And can be done with the right circuit.

It appears in this circuit that although yes the backemf is blocked in direction by the reverse diode, the collapsing backemf is also in the form of a opposite polarity of the pulse. So my initial thought is if it did move towards the cell it would now be negative biased and repel the negative charged cathode tube. Working against you much like a dc motor does. BUT I could be wrong on that one. Also I have read John Bedini has described the bemf as not the driving force in radiant energy collection.

Maybe Peter Lindemann could comment on the bemf force in this circuit!

Kenny
Kenny, et al...

The most confusing thing about this situation is the words. I currently define the following terms this way:

BACK EMF is the reverse, generated voltage in an induction motor. This effect allows the motor to be self-regulating and draw LESS current the faster it spins.

Counter EMF is defined by Lenz' Law where any change in magnetic flux is resisted by the currents that this change induces.

Radiant Voltage Spikes are produced when an inductor is charged with SQUARE WAVES. They appear on both the leading edge (before the magnetic field is established) and on the trailing edge (when the magnetic field is collapsing). They are not associated with current flows and typically appear when current is not flowing.

The Meyer schematics refer to the little inductors next to the Egas cell as CHOKES. A choke is an inductor designed to pass DC, but resist AC fluctuations. The inductor passes DC because once the current passing through it establishes a magnetic field, that field does NOT change. Now, if an AC pulse wants to pass through, it will induce a change in the magnetic field that opposes that change. Hence, the AC pulse is "choked off" and not allowed to pass through. The faster the pulse, the harder the choking effect.

In the current circuit, driven by an AC sine wave and rectified, the "changes" in the magnetic field of the inductor are relatively slow. The CEMFs in the inductors further restrict current flow in the circuit above and beyond the mere resistance of the wire, but also dissipate power in the inductor. This is why the inductors heat up. That represents power loss, or in this case, power NOT USED to produce the Egas.

I do not see any "back EMF" being recovered by this circuit in any useful way. Energy can be recovered in an electrical circuit when an inductor is charged and then allowed to completely discharge by being switched off rapidly. This recoverable energy is what I call "the energy of the inductive collapse".

Since the circuit run on the AC line with either a variac or with capacitors to restrict the input current is essentially a DC or unswitched supply, the inductor never truly "discharges" to create any recoverable energy.

I hope this helps.

Peter
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:11 PM
kenny_PPM kenny_PPM is offline
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Thanks Peter.


Aaron, since resonance is NOT important in this cell:
Would you agree that I can construct my cell out of something other than round tubes? As in something more available like the stainless steel wall plates from home depot?

I was thinking of stacking them in series like the Xonen and others have done. It would be a cheaper, easier, fabrication for me anyhow. ANd stackable. like a few plates at first, conditioning, then trying 30.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post

I do not see any "back EMF" being recovered by this circuit in any useful way. Energy can be recovered in an electrical circuit when an inductor is charged and then allowed to completely discharge by being switched off rapidly. This recoverable energy is what I call "the energy of the inductive collapse".

Since the circuit run on the AC line with either a variac or with capacitors to restrict the input current is essentially a DC or unswitched supply, the inductor never truly "discharges" to create any recoverable energy.
Peter

Thank you for your insights! What changes to the current setup can you recommend as to "recover the back EMF"?
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:21 PM
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resonance

Hi Kenny,

I'm not saying that resonance is not important, just that there is not magic frequency that this is based on. There might be ranges. I do believe there are frequencies that will specifically do things to water like separation, etc...

But in these circuits, the resonance I'm talking about is whatever frequency the cell is being pumped with where everything as a whole is in synchronicity.

You can get a lot of gas from plates...that is what the Brown's gas generators are. Personally, I got more gas from tubes than my plate experiments. There may be something to circular geometry as well.

Also if the 555 circuit is used, the cell can be triggered at the negative tube so that the positive potential is ALREADY sitting in the water capacitor at pulse time. Like the schoolgirl circuit.

Aaron



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Originally Posted by kenny_PPM View Post
Thanks Peter.


Aaron, since resonance is NOT important in this cell:
Would you agree that I can construct my cell out of something other than round tubes? As in something more available like the stainless steel wall plates from home depot?

I was thinking of stacking them in series like the Xonen and others have done. It would be a cheaper, easier, fabrication for me anyhow. ANd stackable. like a few plates at first, conditioning, then trying 30.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:31 PM
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circuit

Hi Passion1,

I have used both. I used the simplified SG without the cap setup and with the trifilar cap charger and discharge with 555 circuit through scr pulsing on pos side and on neg side. I didn't see a noticeable difference in the gas from pulsing on pos or neg but I'm willing to bet there will be more if carefully measured if pulsed on the negative side. the FEG book will explain why.

I saw in xogen's patent they pulse on the neg from what I remember..I saw that in one of Meyer's patent too I think...

I build xogen's circuit from their patent and it didn't do much for me. But if you can replicate what you saw if their promo vids from a couple years back, you're probably doing pretty good.

I got the best results as far as the Bedini circuits is oscillator.



Quote:
Originally Posted by passion1 View Post
Aaron

Thank you for the info!
For the setup in your video, did you use the Bedini SG circuit or the solid state circuit in the book "Free Energy Generation" by Bearden?
Did you simply replace the variac with the Bedini circuit?
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  #41  
Old 08-16-2007, 07:41 PM
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explanation

Thanks for the great explanation Peter! We're lucky to have you contributing here.

This is a great point you bring up: "Since the circuit run on the AC line with either a variac or with capacitors to restrict the input current is essentially a DC or unswitched supply, the inductor never truly "discharges" to create any recoverable energy."

The wall power is a very convenient way to condition the cells then move to quick off/on circuits.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Kenny, et al...

The most confusing thing about this situation is the words. I currently define the following terms this way:

BACK EMF is the reverse, generated voltage in an induction motor. This effect allows the motor to be self-regulating and draw LESS current the faster it spins.

Counter EMF is defined by Lenz' Law where any change in magnetic flux is resisted by the currents that this change induces.

Radiant Voltage Spikes are produced when an inductor is charged with SQUARE WAVES. They appear on both the leading edge (before the magnetic field is established) and on the trailing edge (when the magnetic field is collapsing). They are not associated with current flows and typically appear when current is not flowing.

The Meyer schematics refer to the little inductors next to the Egas cell as CHOKES. A choke is an inductor designed to pass DC, but resist AC fluctuations. The inductor passes DC because once the current passing through it establishes a magnetic field, that field does NOT change. Now, if an AC pulse wants to pass through, it will induce a change in the magnetic field that opposes that change. Hence, the AC pulse is "choked off" and not allowed to pass through. The faster the pulse, the harder the choking effect.

In the current circuit, driven by an AC sine wave and rectified, the "changes" in the magnetic field of the inductor are relatively slow. The CEMFs in the inductors further restrict current flow in the circuit above and beyond the mere resistance of the wire, but also dissipate power in the inductor. This is why the inductors heat up. That represents power loss, or in this case, power NOT USED to produce the Egas.

I do not see any "back EMF" being recovered by this circuit in any useful way. Energy can be recovered in an electrical circuit when an inductor is charged and then allowed to completely discharge by being switched off rapidly. This recoverable energy is what I call "the energy of the inductive collapse".

Since the circuit run on the AC line with either a variac or with capacitors to restrict the input current is essentially a DC or unswitched supply, the inductor never truly "discharges" to create any recoverable energy.

I hope this helps.

Peter
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:26 PM
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Hi Passion1,

I got the best results as far as the Bedini circuits is oscillator.
Aaron

Thank you! Do I understand you correct that you got the best results using Bedini's "Radiant Energy Charger" circuit as per p.46 of Bearden's book?
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Old 08-17-2007, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Bill,

I've been watching you struggle to measure how much power your cells are using over the last few days. You are measuring your inputs as if they were pure DC. Putting capacitors in series with the AC line current, and then running an inductor and a capacitive load, like the Egas Cell, does strange things to the POWER FACTOR of your AC inputs.

I highly recommend that you purchase the little Kill-A-Watt meter for $35 and simply MEASURE your inputs at the wall plug. This meter is good for up to 1800 watts, and measures volts, amps, watts, vars, power factor, and kwh's over a timed run. I believe you will see that your true wattage is lower than the DC measurements currently suggest.

One more thing. Adding your little resistor to measure the currents SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERS the power factor of a circuit like this. You may be altering the real power consumption by adding the resistor.

Keep up the great work.

Peter
Thanks Peter
I'll look into the meter

Regards
Bill
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  #44  
Old 08-17-2007, 09:33 AM
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misc info

I posted this in the radianth2o group that I have in response to someone who thinks I learned this from Dave Lawton who is doing great work but I learned what I did by busting my butt studying everything I could and following my own intuition that gave me proven results.

That refers to stuff that I posted a couple years ago and I feel pretty the much the same and my learning has grown since then so I may have fine tuned my thinking on this stuff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the secret:

Yahoo! Groups

I posted that back in: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:08 pm

That is almost 2.5 years ago. Also, before that if you look at the homepage, radianth2o : radianth2o

"Utilizing 'Radiant Energy' as the method of splitting H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen for the purpose of overunity energy means.

First, I have some things to say about this group. This group was founded from discussions over at http://www.icubenetwork.com/forum/ where our thinking came to the only solution possible about Meyer's systems.

We came to the conclusion via Meyer's setup and his many patents and technical briefs that he was attempting to use VOLTAGE ONLY to SPLIT apart the water molecules. There is so much more to the issue of the key to Meyer's circuits then simply using a Bedini SG. The real key is in producing and using POTENTIAL ONLY / LONGITUDINAL WAVE / COLD ELECTRICITY / RADIANT ENERGY. "

You see that picture on the homepage?
radianth2o : radianth2o

That is a picture from that EXACT video you see I posted on youtube again. It has been there since day 1 of this group.

Before that, it was all discussed at
http://www.icubenetwork.com/forum/

The gas you see in that cell on my video, I made virtually the identical amount of gas with 30 volts 3 amps, 24v 3 amps and then 12v 3 amps. To think of it, that video clip may be when I started at 30 volts I can't remember was so long ago...I just remember my best with the variac source was 12volts and that is what I put in the credits. Then after I think is when I started applying the Bedini circuits to the cell.

Over time things got more efficient experimenting with different inductors, which for inductors I simply used coreless little coils of magnet wire. Water always from same kitchen sink. Tinkering with the inductors, etc...

With Bedini circuits the trifilar oscillator charging cap bank and caps pulsing to cell with 555 circuit worked best for me.

This is a great page: OS:Water Fuel Cell - PESWiki
that is posting a lot of good stuff...looks like it went up few months back..basically saying a lot of the same stuff I've been trying to convince people for 3+ years. First my immediate circle who was the most open..then I took it to icubenetwork because it seemed to have the most open minded and passionate experimenters with the water cell stuff..they got closed down and thank goodness "youhavetoremember" saved a bunch of info from that group and helped start this group...then I promoted the heck out of it and that kicked off great membership here.

I was given Meyer's videos...some I don't know if they've ever been shown online...if not, I'll post them. was given them by a friend who knew Meyer and toured on the lecture circuit with people like Roger Billings...someone everyone should study because he invented the hydrogen fuel cell....the real one and not the garbage industry is wasting money on...I didn't understand Meyer's language and studied the Bedini circuits for a long time, went to look at Meyer's stuff again and automatically saw exactly what Meyer was doing. At least as far as the electronics.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:37 AM
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circuit

Hi Passion1,

I don't have the book handy but basically it is the trifilar circuits charging a cap and discharging with 555 circuit to the cell. Also, the caps can be discharged through a "step up coil", or the output bridge can go directly to step up coils, etc... you can try all kinds of variations...I did. If you look at that circuit and look at Meyer's circuits, you'll probably came to the same conclusion I did...almost looks like the same concept...dump the potential spikes to a battery or dump them to a water capacitor.



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Aaron

Thank you! Do I understand you correct that you got the best results using Bedini's "Radiant Energy Charger" circuit as per p.46 of Bearden's book?
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Old 08-17-2007, 01:32 PM
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Very Hi Freq

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..almost looks like the same concept...dump the potential spikes to a battery or dump them to a water capacitor.

Aaron have you ever tried using very high frequencies with your circuit?
100,000 or 500,000 HZ ?
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Old 08-18-2007, 08:07 PM
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high frequency

50-60khz is about the most I have tried
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Old 08-18-2007, 11:45 PM
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pics and parts

for "speed conditioning", this is what I used...

variac..thought it was 110 ac output max but is 150ac @ 5amp max


cord...plugs into variac output, cord cut and put onto full bridge of 4 1000v diodes I believe. PTC205 diodes (4 of them) and neg on bridge to one clip and positive you can see is cut and that is where the inductor and diode went.


"inductor" I just used a spool of magnet wire
pen there so you can see size.


spacer for tubes... just some stripped off insulation from some electric
wire...about 1cm of it placed every 120 degrees in between tubes...very
tight fit...at top and at bottom.


interesting that even the inside of the center tube has the white powder
coating.


I'm not sure how much easier the tubes can be conditioned. I have had
these tubes cleaned shiny and then used only the Bedini circuits with very
lower power and it takes FOREVER to get any conditioning. I don't think
this is cheating so whatever works..go for it...BUT when the tubes are
conditioned, you get some great gas production with the lower power
high frequency circuits.

some ideas I have seen about the powder is that the conditioning process
is embedding stored hydrogen somehow in the metal itself...I don't know
but it seems to be EXTREMELY necessary for good gas production.
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Old 08-18-2007, 11:51 PM
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geometry of tubes

It seems everyone that uses multiple tubes always spaces the tubes apart from each other.

My setup, I have 7 tubes setups. 6 inner tubes and 6 outer tubes.

If you take one circle, you can fit exactly six equal size circles around it so that they all touch PERFECTLY.

I don't know if it makes a difference but my reasoning is that all outer tubes will then be touching and will be very solidly connected together. Therefore if you use neg or pos on the outside tube, you only have to connect ONE location to connect them all.

The center tubes are a different story.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:21 AM
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CKT Mod

Hello
Well I am at it again, this time I added an oscillator to pulse the 166.3 DC side. I did this by utilizing opto isolator(H11D1) that controls a MosFET.

The Osc is a NE555 to set the pulse wide and LM358 to control the Frequency. Currently pulsing the high side (166.30) I have all the caps (3 - 24uF) in place to drop the current as much as possible and seeing. I tuned the Osc for the highest E across the cell (sweet spot) and the gas production also increases at this setting. The current Frequency is 4.640 Hz.

Food for thought
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Old 08-19-2007, 06:24 AM
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Aaron

Thank you for the pics!

Bill

What is you current power consumption with this setup, i.e. total Watts?
Are you still using the 1600uF smoothing electro cap across the DC side of the FWBR?
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Old 08-19-2007, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
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Aaron

Thank you for the pics!

Bill

What is you current power consumption with this setup, i.e. total Watts?
Are you still using the 1600uF smoothing electro cap across the DC side of the FWBR?
Passion1
I am waiting on the new Watt meter, so I can't answer this Q accurately, will be able to in a few days.

Regards
Bill
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:13 PM
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Hi Aaron,

I was wondering, have you ever tried connecting the tubes in series? With a Bedini circuit more resistance on the output gives even sharper pulses(shorter duty cycle, less current).
Also, I know it's not about magic freqs but a resonance as a whole in the system like you said, but I still wonder if hitting the cell with the Keely freq (42.8khz) would help even more. Have you tried it?

best regards

Mario
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
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Passion1
I am waiting on the new Watt meter, so I can't answer this Q accurately, will be able to in a few days.

Regards
Bill
Sorry Passion1
I forgot to answer the Q relating to the 1600 uF Cap. Actually i change it to a 1300 uF 450 volt Electro Cap. I needed the 1600 mic for another experiment. This change did not seem to effect the test CKT.

One thing i did notice after 12 plus hour of testing(continuous operation) There was NO temp raise to the Rain water in the cell. This tells me that the efficiency of the CKT is heading in the right direction. Dam Wish the New Watt meter would get to see what really is happening as far as the Amps are concerned.

Bill
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Old 08-20-2007, 04:21 PM
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Oops

When I took power readings that went to the cell before, I used the meter on the power supply for voltage. I found out I really didn't have 30v/3a/90w, 24v/3a/72w and 12v/3a/36w to produce the same gas over time with conditioning.

For 12v/3a, it was actually ONLY 8v/3a for a whopping 24watts

The volt meter on the power supply is what is leaving the outlet. BUT, that is NOT what the voltage is leaving the bridge going to the power supply so producing that gas is using a lot less voltage than I thought. This is a very nice surprise.

I don't have a lot of time to work on this project now but I grabbed the old setup, cleaned the tubes, sanded them down, hooked all 7 up and am now conditioning them...it is just running in the other room while working online. I'll post some vids, pics, etc... soon. At 2 amps, it is only using about 5.25volts!!! A big whopping 10.5 watts. LOL How much gas for 5.25v at 2 amps? Not much...I'll show clips soon.

No inductor used now...just straight bridge to cells. Using outer tubes for neg and inner tubes for pos. I'll do both and see what happens later. Anyway, the tap water is too conductive so I can't get higher volts with lower amps without the inductor or less conductive water. I'm not interested in using distilled water because there are more costs involved with distilled. Besides, if this is to be practical, you have to be able to get a garden hose and fill the tank and not mess around with distilled water.
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Old 08-20-2007, 04:23 PM
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series / frequency

Hi Mario, I've never connected the tubes in series only with plates before.

For optimum production, the system definitely will be in resonance by definition. Not sure about the Keely frequency but I'll play with it soon enough. I do believe there are different frequencies that make the water do magic but just in Meyer's systems, it isn't about hitting a magic frequency. Puharich also had found frequencies that instantly split water.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Hi Aaron,

I was wondering, have you ever tried connecting the tubes in series? With a Bedini circuit more resistance on the output gives even sharper pulses(shorter duty cycle, less current).
Also, I know it's not about magic freqs but a resonance as a whole in the system like you said, but I still wonder if hitting the cell with the Keely freq (42.8khz) would help even more. Have you tried it?

best regards

Mario
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Old 08-20-2007, 04:26 PM
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power use

I'm aware that I was using MORE than 24 watts from the wall so it isn't that efficient overall. I just know what supplying only what is needed at the cell later is what will need to be produced.
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Old 08-20-2007, 04:27 PM
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diodes

The diodes on my bridge are not what I would recommend...they are only what I had on hand.
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:34 AM
passion1 passion1 is offline
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Aaron

Excellent efficiency!!
Could you please clarify the exact setup (including diode specifics) you have used for the 24 watts.
How does this setup differ from the schematic in the first posting of this thread?
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:00 PM
opmeyer opmeyer is offline
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Hi Bill,

I updated Kenny's diagram to include the more recent information on your construction.

Could you please confirm that this is correct.

Thanks.
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