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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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Old 09-20-2010, 02:04 PM
Michael John Nunnerley's Avatar
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None Electrolytic Splitting Of H2o

Here is the first of my documents on this subject, and is to be continued

Mike

Last edited by Michael John Nunnerley : 11-09-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:15 PM
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Great Michale
You have my attention!
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:44 PM
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I like where this is going...
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:20 PM
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Any chance the .doc could be made into a pdf (can be done using free pdf converters, also it would be more secure seeing as doc files can have malicious code embedded in it).

Apart from that, I've been thinking about something completely different but uses a similar energy transfer idea as you suggested. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Here is the first of my documents on this subject, and is to be continued

Mike
Hi Mike,

You definately mention some goodies in there. Resonance and heterodyne are very important considerations. However, IMHO the answers are not to be found in the resonance frequencies of the fluid as such, but in how to get the power and how to apply it to your fluid. I have analysed the systems by Gray, Meyer and Puharich and concluded they all used the same principles to extract energy out of the electric field. And since Gray did not use this energy to electrolyse water, I think it is fair to conclude that there is nothing unusual going on with the electrolysis as such in the cases of Meyer and Puharich. The most important thing, IMHO, is how to get the power, not so much how to perform the electrolysis as efficient as possible.

If you're interested in my theory, you can check my article over here:
Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

I am very, very confident this theory is correct, not only because of the similarities between the three inventors I investigated, but because it can also be explained from the ground up.
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:45 PM
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Secound Part

This is the secound part, and thank you for your comments. If anybody would like to put this into a PDF form please do so as I have very little time.

This is not theory, this IS how it is done and was done quite some years ago, too many years ago, in a few months I will be 60, I hope I will have a good few more years and as so please do not ask me for full working circuits and diagrams, as from what I have given here I know many in this forum that could build this with their eyes closed.

Mike

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Old 09-20-2010, 06:53 PM
carbideTip carbideTip is offline
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Look into Steve Meyer.
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File Type: pdf PART TWO.pdf (33.9 KB, 469 views)
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carbideTip View Post
Look into Steve Meyer.
Thank you for putting this into a pdf, the Steve Meyer is reference to what?


Mike
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:20 PM
Farrah Day Farrah Day is offline
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Hi Mike

So you're suggesting no ionisation takes place at all, but instead that the OH bonds are fractured cleanly into oxygen and hydrogen...

I'm just curious as to how you factor in that Meyer's tubes were related to half or quarter wavelength, when 5KHz is the frequency that tends to be banded about with respect to his WFC. And of course the fact that the length of Meyers tubes you would dictate frequencies in excess of 150MHz even for 1/4 wavelength.

Quote:
This is not theory, this IS how it is done and was done quite some years ago, too many years ago,
Who did this Mike? Any references?
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrah Day View Post
Hi Mike

So you're suggesting no ionisation takes place at all, but instead that the OH bonds are fractured cleanly into oxygen and hydrogen...

I'm just curious as to how you factor in that Meyer's tubes were related to half or quarter wavelength, when 5KHz is the frequency that tends to be banded about with respect to his WFC. And of course the fact that the length of Meyers tubes you would dictate frequencies in excess of 150MHz even for 1/4 wavelength.



Who did this Mike? Any references?
What is banded about as frequencies and what is used are two totally different things. Two frequency bands that work are VHF and UHF, I think that will give you a reasonable tube (antenna) length, you could go up to the micro wave band but that would generate heat which is not what you want, well not in this case, we are not cooking anything here (pun intended)

Mike
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:49 PM
Farrah Day Farrah Day is offline
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Well, you attempted to answer at least one question, which is more than you normally do, so I guess I should be grateful for that and call it a day!
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
This is the secound part, and thank you for your comments. If anybody would like to put this into a PDF form please do so as I have very little time.

This is not theory, this IS how it is done and was done quite some years ago, too many years ago, in a few months I will be 60, I hope I will have a good few more years and as so please do not ask me for full working circuits and diagrams, as from what I have given here I know many in this forum that could build this with their eyes closed.

Mike
IMHO, you are very close to how things are, even though I don't agree with the part about the ion bonds being fractured, but first this. With respect to the resonance frequencie, some very good points have been made here:
Future Energy hydroxy cell

Now about the ion fracturing. A part of the water molecules fractures naturally:
pH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
A solution whose pH is 7 (at 25 °C (77 °F)) is said to be neutral, that is, it is neither acidic nor basic. Water is subject to a self-ionization process.

H2O is in equilibrium with H+ + OH−

The dissociation constant, KW, has a value of about 10–14, so in neutral solution of a salt both the hydrogen ion concentration and hydroxide ion concentration are about 10-7 mol dm-3
So, there is always a certain concentration of H+ and OH- ions in the water. And since these are charged particles, these are the ones most susceptible to excitation using electric fields. And once these start moving because of the presence of an electric field that happens to match the acoustic resonance frequency of the fluid within the space of your tubes, you get these sound waves inside the fluid, which not only produce sound but also create ion currents in the water, because the ions in there are the molecules being dragged back and forth with the electric field applied to the water using your tubes.

So, in order to get this really working, the accoustic resonance of the water and therefore the ions in there should match the resonance frequency of your "charging chokes". So, these are not really chokes (HF killers) but resonators. Resonators that should resonate electrically at the same frequency your water resonates accousically. And all this should resonate in harmony with eachother...

And then you have everything tied together, if you make sure you get the right resonance mode in your coils as well.

So, IMHO, you get the power from the electric field the way Gray, Meyer and Puharich did all basically the same and you couple that into your water by coupling that power in there to make it resonate and therefore induce ion currents in the water, which eventually results in normal Farday-like electrolysis inside your fluid. The presence of any salts in the solution can influence not only the effectiveness of the electrolysis, but also of the resonance frequency (according to Puharich).

Last edited by lamare : 09-20-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:09 PM
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Heterodyning

Some of you might find this document interesting.
I always wondered how it could be used and it looks like this is it.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Heterodyning and Powers of Phi.doc (82.0 KB, 324 views)
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Some of you might find this document interesting.
I always wondered how it could be used and it looks like this is it.
Definately! Thanks a lot. Uploaded a pdf version here:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...ers_of_Phi.pdf

Quote:
Is the Phi distribution of frequencies/wavelengths analogous
to the growth patterns of trees and other living things... because it is optimal for
accumulating and translating energy from across the frequency spectrum? This
question led to a brainstorm which resulted in the following illustration of what
living things might be doing, and what we might need to do to construct a
"coherer" of PHI-related frequencies and energies
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:01 PM
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apply the information

Thanks Mike for some excellent insight!

------------------------------------------

This thread is started by Mike to offer his explanation based on his personal
EXPERIENCE and RESULTS and not just writing about it. If he says it isn't
just some theory, it should be obvious what that means.

IMHO, Mike ALREADY knows how his own systems works.

Anyone asking who did this completely ignores his posts that addressed
that in the other threads.

I think we owe it to him in this thread to focus on what he is telling us
instead of second guessing his EXPERIENCE and RESULTS.

So I think we owe it to Mike to discuss the
actual method he is talking about and lay out some ideas on how to
implement it. It does seem pretty straightforward and there are plenty
of qualified people here that can see what he is writing for what it is and
apply it.

Last edited by Aaron : 09-21-2010 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrah Day View Post
Well, you attempted to answer at least one question, which is more than you normally do, so I guess I should be grateful for that and call it a day!
Farrah I did not write this just for the sake of writing this, if you read it carefully I think even you will understand and yes 150mhz would be a good start for the VHF band, 120Mhz and 720Mhz have been used succesfully.

Your tubes can be tuned to a virtual length with your coils, that is one reason they are their

Mike
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:42 PM
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splitting h2o

I didn't see if that PDF had both pages or not, but here is a link to the whole
document so far...

http://www.feelthevibe.com/free_ener...osplitting.pdf
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I didn't see if that PDF had both pages or not, but here is a link to the whole
document so far...

http://www.feelthevibe.com/free_ener...osplitting.pdf
Thanks Aaron

Mike
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:15 AM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Thank You!!

Mike,

I appreciate your sharing this very much!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Here is the first of my documents on this subject, and is to be continued

Mike
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:58 AM
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my initial take on Mike's explanation

I want to create a rolling group of docs related to this:

Mike's doc: http://www.feelthevibe.com/free_ener...osplitting.pdf

Nvisser, thanks for posting that.
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...powers-phi.doc

Here is the first reference that I learned about heterodyning from Bedini:
My Work on Rife
In reference to the 4 wave mixing. Priore used up to 18 I think.
And of course Bearden has a ton of info about interferometry.

Anyway, John references this on his page:
The Acousto-Optic Modulator and Optical Heterodyning

They're all basically saying what Mike already spelled out about starting
with two base frequencies.

----------------------------

Now as I read Mike's document and he says continuous bombardment
with the heterodyning frequencies helps to break them apart with less
power. And we're talking about tubes being used as antennas with
tuning coils (chokes).

So, are we not talking about "ionization" anymore? Well, it seems that
this is about the water cell, which is separate from the ionization system
to ionize nitrogen, etc... that much I think can be deduced from Mike's
document and if I'm wrong, I'll delete this so it doesn't confuse anyone
but I see questions that appear to be self-evidently answered within
the content itself.

And furthermore, it goes into detail about tubes submerged in water.
So are we not talking about "ionization" anymore? It is obviously the
water cell part of the system and not the air ionization.

---------------------------------

With the tubes needing insulation - is this where the delrin encasement
comes into play? Meyer clearly showed this in his diagrams that the
tube sets are encased in delrin to insulate them from the water bath
and the only place that they touched the water was at the gap where
the water can flow up through and out.

With conventional pulsed power to the tubes, insulating does increase
the gas production and does allow the tube set to act more as a real
capacitor since it isn't shorted out by having the ends of the tubes
simply short circuited through the water distilled or not. But in this case,
if we want them to act as antennas that are insulated from the water
but allow RF to pass through the insulator, delrin or any other plastic
or rubber should work - or wouldn't it?

I bought "plastidip" before to coat some tubes for the purposes of
insulating them from the water as the delrin was intended to do.

So with the tubes and tuned coils and "auto tune" circuit, and we know
what the auto tune circuit is, we should be good to go. Could we do this
with just two tubes to demonstrate the effectiveness where there
is a PLL for each tube set and each one is operating in a different
frequency range? The a frequency of the difference and combination
of are created, which bombard the water molecules causing them to
dissociate easier with less power.

As far as the cage, that would then shield the entire water cell from
leaking any of the rf so wrapping it in sheet metal like copper or similar
might work or will it?

And at the end, Mike mentions that he talked about NH3 but this paper
is only about splitting the water molecule. So are we not talking about
ionization anymore? This is about splitting the water molecule and Mike
hasn't gotten into the NH3 yet.

Last edited by Aaron : 09-21-2010 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:20 AM
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Something to read and understand on EM waves

Definitions of EMF, ELF, VHF, UHF, electromagnetic field, frequency ranges and wavelengths of electromagnetic fields

The table presented here on different RF or electro magnetic waves gives you an insite on what different EM waves do.

If you look at the highest end of the scale, X-rays, you will see why I have moved on to working in this area, albeit, far more complicated and dangerous and should be left to people whom know what they are doing.

Look at the VHF and UHF section, electrons oscillating, rings a bell with what I have said in the document? well it should. Go back to the piece of wood anology and breaking of the bond.

Mike
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I want to create a rolling group of docs related to this:
Posted both here: Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Reference_Material/

Quote:
Now as I read Mike's document and he says continuous bombardment
with the heterodyning frequencies helps to break them apart with less
power. And we're talking about tubes being used as antennas with
tuning coils (chokes).

So, are we not talking about "ionization" anymore? Well, it seems that
this is about the water cell, which is separate from the ionization system
to ionize nitrogen, etc... that much I think can be deduced from Mike's
document and if I'm wrong, I'll delete this so it doesn't confuse anyone
but I see questions that appear to be self-evidently answered within
the content itself.

And furthermore, it goes into detail about tubes submerged in water.
So are we not talking about "ionization" anymore? It is obviously the
water cell part of the system and not the air ionization.

Let me share my thoughts on this. At the higher level, there are two reactions to be considered:

1. The breaking up of water into H2 and O2 gasses.
2. The burning of the gasses back into water.

IMHO, all the theories about ionistation, electron orbits, bond angles and the like may be right or may not be right, but in the end we know for certain that reaction two can happen spontaneously once the reaction has been started. So, whatever way you look at it, it is possible to have all the charge transfers and whatever may be going on within a "simple" chemical reaction. Under the right conditions, the magic happens, and in this case a reaction occurs that delivers energy.

So, now the other way. Given the results claimed by Meyer, Puharich and others, I think one can safely conclude that the reaction the other way can be performed pretty much the same way as reaction two, only the other way around, which above all means: getting the energy at the right place.

And since water always contains a certain amount of ions, we can use these to get the fluid in acoustic resonance by feeding RF waves trough the fluid with the right frequency. Then we have not only a simple acoustic resonance, but within that also resonating ions such that the positive ones resonate in opposit phase with respect to the negative ones. So, every now and then, they will bump into one another and because they have a significantly larger speed than in a fluid that is not being excited into resonance, they apparantly have enough energy for the reaction the other way around to take place.

IMHO, that's really all we need to know.

Update:
This is what Puharich also writes, besides his theory about breaking the bonds:
Andrija Puharich: Water Decomposition by AC Elecrolysis >

Quote:
The next effect felt by the water molecule is the Component I carrier resonant frequency, Fo. At the peak efficiency for electrolysis the value of Fo is 600 Hz +/- 5 Hz.

This resonance however is achieved through control of two other factors. The first is the molal concentration of salt in the water. This is controlled by measuring the conductivity of the water through the built in current meter of Component I. There is maintained an idea ratio of current to voltage I/E = 0.01870 which is an index to the optimum salt concentration of 0.1540 Molal.

The second factor which helps to hold the resonant which helps to hold the resonant frequency at 600 Hz is the gap distance of Y, between the centre electrode, and the ring electrode of Component II.

This gap distance will vary depending on the size scale of Component II, but again the current flow, I, is used to set it to the optimal distance when the voltage reads between 2.30 (rms) volts, at resonance Fo, and at molal concentration, 0.1540. The molal concentration of the water is thus seen to represent the electric term of the water molecule and hence its conductivity.

The amplitude modulation of the carrier gives rise to side bands in the power spectrum of the carrier frequency distribution. It is these side bands which give rise to an acoustic vibration of the liquid water, and it is believed to the tetrahedral water molecule. The importance of the phonon effect --- the acoustic vibration of water in electrolysis --- was discovered in a roundabout way. Research work with Component I had earlier established that it could be used for the electro-stimulation of hearing in humans. When the output of Component I is comprised of flat circular metal plates applied to the head of normal hearing humans, it was found that they could hear pure tones and speech. Simultaneously, acoustic vibration could also be heard by an outside observer with a stethoscope placed near one of the electrodes on the skin. It was observed that the absolute threshold of hearing could be obtained at 0.16 mW (rms), and by calculation that there was an amplitude of displacement of the eardrum of the order of 10-11 and a corresponding amplitude of the cochlear basilar membrane of 10-13 meter. Corollary to this finding. I was able to achieve the absolute reversible threshold of electrolysis at a power level of 0.16 mW (rms). By carrying out new calculations I was able to show that the water was being vibrated with a displacement of the order of 1 Angstrom ( = 10-10 meters). This displacement is of the order of the diameter of the hydrogen atom.
Based on this, I really wonder if there is much more to the whole process other than getting the right acoustic resonance. Because if really the breaking of the specific bonds of the water molecule where that important, then why could Puharich control his resonance frequency trough the salt concentration?

And, if you really need specific frequencies to break the bonds, how does that relate to the reaction the other way around (burning)?

Last edited by lamare : 09-21-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Here is the first of my documents on this subject, and is to be continued
Mike
EDIT: I wrote but got sidetracked by phone call. Now I saw you did post a warning; so I will just underwrite that.

Last edited by Aromaz : 09-21-2010 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:08 PM
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Wait a minute...

This is beginning to make sense.


As I posted just above, there is a certain natural concentration of H+ and OH- ions in water:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post111138

For "normal" electrolysis to be performed "in fluid" you need these ions, first of all to get the fluid into acoustic resonance, and second of all because you need charge carriers for the electrolysis reaction to take place.

Now if you want to make the electrolysis more efficient, you need more ions. One way to do that is to add an electrolyte. Another way to do that apparantly is to change the natural ion balance in water, by exciting the water molecules, such that you get more H+ and OH- ions. And that would mean breaking the bonds....

So, if I understand this right, you are basically using water as the electrolyte.
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:42 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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This looks relevant, by Joseph Cater:

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Old 09-21-2010, 02:04 PM
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lamare lamare is offline
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Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
This looks relevant, by Joseph Cater:
Also with description here:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter5.pdf
page 64 a.o.

Quote:
Joseph H. Cater comments: The experiments of Schauberger and others have confirmed the enormous and almost unlimited quantities of electricity housed in water. The following is an absurdly simple and practical method of extracting this energy. It employs the “Coanda” or “cloud-buster” effect.

A plastic tube 14” to 16” (350 mm to 400 mm) long and about 2.5” (65 mm) in diameter is filled with distilled water. At each end, exposed to the water, is a copper terminal which is used for both the electrical input and output. Rechargeable dry cells of suitable voltage are connected in series with the input terminals. When the two output terminals are short-circuited or connected to a load, electricity starts flowing. This is current entrained by the input current. When high voltage is applied, the output voltage is almost as great as the input voltage. However, the amperage is inadequate. The answer to the problem is ultrasonics. It is an experimental fact that ultrasound of 600,000 Hz focussed on a container of water causes the water to boil. This means that sound of this frequency disintegrates large quantities of “soft” electrons in the water. The sudden release of “hard” electrons produces tremendous thermal agitation of the water molecules.

A DC ultrasonic transducer attached to the tube would produce sufficient free electrons to be entrained for the unit to have almost unlimited output potential. The tube functions like a sounding board. Mr Cater has been given powerful evidence that two different individuals who received this information got sensational results from the generator. They had access to such a transducer. They tried to set up in business but the vested interests saw to it that they were put out of business and persuaded to remain silent ever since.

An associate of Mr Cater built a fist-sized siren which generated a frequency of 600 kHz. When focussed on a small container of water, the water boiled. This demonstrated that it could be used instead of a solid-state DC ultrasonic transducer on the water generator. A small DC motor could operate the siren. It would be far more effective as it produces a much more intense sound.

Last edited by lamare : 09-21-2010 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:07 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Very Good Read

Mike,

Thanks for sharing the information in your paper. This is indeed very fascinating stuff and your paper makes the Meyer system much more understandable now. Thanks for sharing this!!

Best Regards,
Slovenia
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:46 PM
Farrah Day Farrah Day is offline
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This means that sound of this frequency disintegrates large quantities of “soft” electrons in the water. The sudden release of “hard” electrons produces tremendous thermal agitation of the water molecules.
Anybody feel brave enough to even attempt to explain what 'HARD' and 'SOFT' electrons are?

Electrons being disintegrated, Lamare?
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:51 PM
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lamare lamare is offline
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Originally Posted by Farrah Day View Post
Electrons being disintegrated, Lamare?
You did note I was quoting, right?
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:03 PM
Farrah Day Farrah Day is offline
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You did note I was quoting, right?
Yes... but who in their right mind would want to quote that nonsense?
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