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  #361  
Old 11-10-2010, 01:53 PM
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Updated PDF File

The most recent pdf file of this thread has been uploaded to page 3 of this thread if you want it.
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  #362  
Old 11-10-2010, 03:36 PM
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Wow Duncan
Do you plan a TV transmitter station?
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  #363  
Old 11-10-2010, 05:04 PM
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See you there

@ All

See you there, we need to talk about quite a few things and what is planed for the future

Going to pack my case, leave tomorrow at 5am from my house and it is now 6pm here, long three plane journey. Be sure to bring warm cloths , it is cold out there but for sure a warm welcome for all.

Mike
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  #364  
Old 11-11-2010, 12:47 AM
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Wish I could have been there. NARF said they would like to send me, but they wanted "Lot's of Pictures" to go with my writeup on the conference. After I wrote them that pictures are absolutely restricted as are cell phones, I have not heard back from them. Air fare has doubled since my first request so at this point I guess it's a no go

I know you all will have a good time
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  #365  
Old 11-18-2010, 04:52 PM
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Thanks to all

@ All

May I just thank all that were at the conference and the warm welcome that I had from 30+ people for the 11/2hr talk on the none eletrolytic splitting of the H2O molecule, even though we were interupted by a security guard.

During my stay I have sorted out the possible production of the RF part of the system and this is currently being worked on and hope to have available in the not too distant future.

Working in the background, Aaron and co hope to have a full replication of my 1989 prototype for my 60th birthday, 11th jan They are well on the way with completing the original jet engine and running first time which I saw while I was there, a big hand for Aaron an Jeff whom have taken 9 months to build it from my instruction. It runs better than mine did at very low 5000 RPM up to very high 20000+ RPM, and is quieter than a vacuum cleaner yet makes a very good leaf blower

Will keep all posted as and when there is more to say, there is a lot of work to be done.

Mike
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  #366  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:40 PM
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Thank you!!

I feel like the real thanks should go to you for being willing to share with us. I learned a lot from you in the few minutes we spent together. It sure didn't seem like an hour and half. Thanks again for taking the time and having the patience to share with us.

Carroll
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  #367  
Old 11-19-2010, 06:14 AM
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focus on the rf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
have taken 9 months to build it from my instruction.
Just advice to everyone - have at least a 12" diameter lathe to give enough
clearance to turn a 6.5" OD heavy steel tube. Can always be built with semi
exhaust pipe, etc..., but I'd recommend building it with good quality materials
and make it rugged - instead of just good enough to make it run.

My 9X19 lathe was only good for some of the project and had to have a friend
do the big tube on his large equipment - for free thankfully.

With the right tools, probably 1-2 week job to make one really good.

If you all get the RF circuit running first and prove that out, the sky is
the limit or maybe the moon. You can apply it to many applications but
a jet engine is the simplest. Make sure to check out that turbojet thread
I started here and check out the references like the yahoo group.

Anyway, please focus on the RF "reactor" since that is the KEY.
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  #368  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:34 PM
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Hi All
I am home at last. It was great to meet all you guys!!
For some dark unexplainable reason I missed the meeting at the conference and when I made it back there I did not know where you were.
Is there any way that some of the details about the RF part (at least) could be repeated here on the thread?
Thanks
Vissie
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  #369  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:58 PM
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molecule creation

Hi Vissie,

We were way in the back past the fire place in the lobby.

The concept is in this thread, Mike just went into a lot more detail.

Water vapor coming up - vapor for more surface area to absorb the RF.

2 antennas that it moves up through.

One antenna with 100mhz the other with 600mhz (6 times spread is
required). They interfere with each other can create a difference and
sum of those frequencies. 500mhz and 700mhz.

All 4 frequencies mix and effect the water molecules. Bonds are weakened
in the nitrogen molecules (bubbled from exhaust - or pumped in from a
nitrogen tank, etc...) and h2o bonds are weakened. Instead of necessarily
splitting, the elongated weakened bonds swap between each other like
a boiling stew (in vapor not submerged).

So H bonds to N for nh3, some o bonds to n for n2o, etc...
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  #370  
Old 11-19-2010, 06:14 PM
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(H bonds to N for nh3, some o bonds to n for n2o, etc...)
Does this means that without nitrogen the process will not work. Are the n2o and n3h the fuel now.
Will hydroxy not be formed without the nitrogen?
I think I lost you now.
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  #371  
Old 11-19-2010, 06:26 PM
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nitrogen is the key

Nvisser,

The key has always been nitrogen.

Hydroxy (hho, etc...) all explode then turn back into water right away
so you get no real "thermal combustive energy".

With nitrogen, it gets in the way of h & o forming back to water. There
will be h2o in exhaust but not much. Nitrogen in a way plays the part of
an EEC (Meyer's electron extraction circuit) so to speak. Any atomic nitrogen
is seeking 3 electrons to balance so can suck them up so the h&o doesn't
have access to them.

Nitrogen molecule has strongest molecular bond (triple electron bond).

So when split, it has the strongest suction for anything negatively charged.
3 H's can join to Nitrogen to make nh3. N is just a carrier for 3 atomic
hydrogens just as C is the carrier for hydrogen in carbon based fuels.

When burning, you crack 3 atomic H's off the ammonia and atomic
hydrogen gives you 3 times the power when burning compared to molecular
hydrogen.

You need the plasma ignition running with the water fuel - the plasma
can crack the H from the NH3 easily.

nh3 and n2o have always been the real water fuel. Other nitrogen oxygen
compounds are formed as well. The emissions are just nitrogen and
some water moisture.

Meyer called the nitrogen "non-combustible gases". He said you need that
in order to SLOW down the burn rate of the water fuel. That means you
get the thermal energy out of it as described above. Without, you get a
quick hho brown's gas pop that turns back into water - just a waste of
time.

All the self-proclaimed Meyer Guru's refuse to acknowledge the above and
I provided all the proof based on Meyer's own words in the Ionization
thread but they still want to debate it. They are lost because they
just want to focus on making as much as hho as possible while refusing
to recognize the more important key - Nitrogen.

I also posted references that go back to the early 1800's - the first was
Davy that showed that Nitrogen will bind to electrolytic hydrogen in
the presence of water
. Basically, it has been known for 200 years that
you can make nh3 (ammonia) out of air, water and electricity at low
power, low heat and low pressure.

You need nitrogen bubbling up in the water mix as the water is "split".
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  #372  
Old 11-19-2010, 07:15 PM
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Aaron I am flabergasted

Aaron what a great explination, you have really learnt the system.

Just one thing to add, what happens when the molecules vibrate is that they internally heat up and they can reach very high temperatures inside and only radiate a small amount of this heat, this increases the N and H bonding.

As far as producing H2 and O2, yes it will, but not the way to go as I have explained time and time again.

What is better than a fuel that will run an engine with very simple adjustments as from petrol, a H2 and O2 perfect mix ON IT'S OWN is a very dangerous field to be in and your engine will not like it either.

Mike
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  #373  
Old 11-19-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Nvisser,

The key has always been nitrogen.......

You need nitrogen bubbling up in the water mix as the water is "split".
Aaron,
Probably you and some peoples think that for dissociated NH3 you need to use thermal plasma from capacitor discharge and tungsten plugs for not consume electrode!! This is wrong!! You need to use non-equilibrium plasma or simply called non-thermal plasma. ONLY with that released energy you can "crack" NH3 molecule into NH2+H, in that way you don't produce any hydrogen outside but all reaction appear inside the chambre of combustion that is safety and simple to control. If in your mixture of NH3/air you add nitrous oxide you obtain an strange reaction, in fact hydrogen atoms released from NH3 (NH2+H) acts as catalyst on nitrous oxide releasing an great amount of energy, much more than gasoline! But attention that reaction appear only with an mixture of ammonia, nitrous oxide and air; if you use an mixture of hydrogen/air and you add nitrous oxide that reaction don't appear
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  #374  
Old 11-20-2010, 03:13 AM
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thank!

Thanks Mike!

Thanks for the reference paper Alex - I will look over that tonight.
Need to catch up on some sleep
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  #375  
Old 11-20-2010, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Hi All
I am home at last. It was great to meet all you guys!!
For some dark unexplainable reason I missed the meeting at the conference and when I made it back there I did not know where you were.
Is there any way that some of the details about the RF part (at least) could be repeated here on the thread?
Thanks
Vissie
I was distracted else where too Vissie, I guess well have to hang for a while now and wait for information to trickle through.
As you say Vissie a really great group and a pleasure to meet many of them and be able to put faces to the names!
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  #376  
Old 11-20-2010, 08:41 AM
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The Bakerian Lecture, on Some Chemical Agencies of Electricity

Just for the full Sir Humphrey Davy reference:

The Bakerian Lecture, on Some Chemical Agencies of Electricity. [Abstract]I think the Bakerian paper has the reference of:
Nascent Hydrogen. The doctrine of the nascent state has been developed, for the most part, in terms of hydrogen. Davy noticed in 1807 that electrolytic hydrogen will combine with nitrogen in the presence of water, while ordinary hydrogen will not.

The Nascent State, J. H. Reedy and E. D. Biggers, J. Chem. Educ., 1942, 19 (9), p 403, DOI: 10.1021/ed019, p403, Publication Date: September 1942.


Here is the full Bakerian paper for free - I don't recall if that reference
is in this paper or another.
The Bakerian Lecture: On Some Chemical Agencies of Electricity — Philosophical Transactions

In any case, it is NOT necessary for anyone to know anything about this
paper to do the experiments. I'm posting it because it is simply the oldest
reference I know of showing that where there is nitrogen in the presence
of water being split that hydrogen will bond to the nitrogen.

In that Bakerian paper, you'll also see references to the nitrogen
"dissolved gases" that Meyer always talks about even though the Meyer
"gurus" make it sound like the amount is insignificant. Those opinions are
irrelevant and have been for over 200 years. There are significant
pH changes, etc... in the water and is known, shown, scientifically
validated that much of the action with simply "water" can create various
chemicals other than just those strictly related to H and O - and in this
Davy paper, there is a whole section on "dissolved gases", word for work
what Meyer is talking about.

Now when bubbling ambient air or exhaust nitrogen through water, you'll
have more nitrogen available than just water that has been "exposed to
air" as Davy discusses.

Just for a reference and interesting history that backs what is discussed
in this thread and just for fun - and it is NOT required to understand these
references to make something work. Just good to have the references to
substantiate the principles that are involved in making real water fuel.

If that Bakerian paper doesn't have the reference, please let me know and
I'll try to find it in the other papers.

Here is an old post with a bunch of other nh3 creation references from
way back:
http://www.energeticforum.com/90017-post533.html
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  #377  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:30 AM
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Thanks you for all the explanations.
I though last night that normal air consist mostly out of nitrogen and that it should work fine in this application.?
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  #378  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:02 AM
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plasma ignition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
Aaron,
Probably you and some peoples think that for dissociated NH3 you need to use thermal plasma from capacitor discharge and tungsten plugs for not consume electrode!! This is wrong!! You need to use non-equilibrium plasma or simply called non-thermal plasma. ONLY with that released energy you can "crack" NH3 molecule into NH2+H, in that way you don't produce any hydrogen outside but all reaction appear inside the chambre of combustion that is safety and simple to control. If in your mixture of NH3/air you add nitrous oxide you obtain an strange reaction, in fact hydrogen atoms released from NH3 (NH2+H) acts as catalyst on nitrous oxide releasing an great amount of energy, much more than gasoline! But attention that reaction appear only with an mixture of ammonia, nitrous oxide and air; if you use an mixture of hydrogen/air and you add nitrous oxide that reaction don't appear
Thanks Alex, I looked at that.

Basically, the plasma ignition required only uses a little bit of power. For
the basic plasma, it only requires a CDI with a HV diode and that already
works. And most CDI's only need about 4uf and 300-600v. It doesn't
require any more power to turn the CDI "spark" into plasma - it only
requires the addition of the didoes in the right location and polarity
depending on the ignition coil's polarity.

So far, the only thing I see as a benefit for tungsten is durability. I do NOT
see in my research any evidence that tungsten is needed to be a "catalyst"
(doesn't add to or take away from the chemical reaction in a combustion
chamber).

This all goes back to all the Langmuir science with his "overunity" atomic
hydrogen torch.

Primarily, he used HEAT to crack the hydrogen from the NH3 and I think
tungsten was just a bonus so I think almost any metal will work. The
tungsten in Langmuir's case was "neutral" in the sense that it didn't
seem to oxidize. Again, that appears to be for longevity and is irrelevant
to the cracking of the H from NH3 as the HEAT is what does the main
cracking and not because it is tungsten for the most part.

That is what is so genius about a jet engine - the flame tube when up
to temp and it may be glowing or not but the flame tube is essentially
a large NH3 hydrogen cracking catalyst itself that is about the size of
the ENTIRE combustion chamber all by itself.

Look at a spark plug size in relation to the combustion chamber in an
internal combustion engine. Very easy to see the difference and that
the entire engine itself is practically a glow plug (in a jet).

The plasma ignition in a jet for example and although at fairly small size
compared to the entire area of the flame tube, works hand in hand it seems
with the large surface area of the heated flame tube and gives that extra
bit of cracking at the igniter/fuel end of the combustion chamber.

The bottom line is that many of the timing problems, etc... in an internal
combustion engine are all eliminated with a gas turbine engine.

But with the plasma ignition, since it already takes such low power, it
works just fine and works with any metal. If we're not going to use some
serious booster caps like I showed in my videos, then I think a typical
CDI modified for plasma on any plug will last a very long time.
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  #379  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:51 AM
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Yes Aaron you now see why it is important to preheat the flame tube to start the engine, well that is on the jet turbine. On a piston engine I can't say as I have never done it, only time will tell, but people are running piston engines on pure NH3 and we will have to look at the pre cracking of the ammonia that they are doing if it can't be done at the point of combustion, which I'm sure it can.

Mike
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  #380  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post

Thanks Alex, I looked at that......
Aaron,
NO THERMAL PLASMA IS NEEDED , NO CAPACITOR DISCHARGE IS NEEDED, NO AQUAPULSER IGNITION IS NEEDED!!
Probably can work but you need special circuit for recharge fast your capacitor and surely you need tungsten plugs, I have spent some months waiting Aquapulser for an new ignition and don't have obtain nothing because they have some problems.. I have buy from they also two RPG4700 for test and after little time these are dead. After you have to think what appear on head of piston with higly discharges of plasma in the time. You need a reliable engine!!

The new ignition for crack ammonia does not release destructive energy and isn't dangerous for your life including the right spark plugs without tungsten inside. You have to build your right ignition basing you on scientific document that I have attach. When Mike have finished and tested RF module on new reactor you can obtain also new ignition module and plugs for install inside your car and go with ammonia and nitrous oxide.
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Last edited by tutanka; 11-20-2010 at 12:59 PM.
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  #381  
Old 11-20-2010, 04:59 PM
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Mike I have been reading with fascination of the process. Perhaps I didn't see it in the thread but is there any data as to how efficient a process it is. Any ideas of approx how many litres per min of gases will be produced by the embodied prototype discussed here?
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  #382  
Old 11-20-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
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Mike I have been reading with fascination of the process. Perhaps I didn't see it in the thread but is there any data as to how efficient a process it is. Any ideas of approx how many litres per min of gases will be produced by the embodied prototype discussed here?
Very very efficient, water vapour in a 5gallon drum for example will split in about 2sec, so you can do the maths more or less (water vapour not water)
with 20watts of power.
Mike
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  #383  
Old 11-20-2010, 06:46 PM
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mistake

Sorry I am used to liters not gallons, I ment 5ltr drum.

Mike
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  #384  
Old 11-20-2010, 07:15 PM
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Hi Mike,

That's 40 Joules in, but we would need to know density and purity of the water in that volume to get to the resultant energy product of the decompressed gases, wouldn't we? So the pressure of the 5L space would play a part too.

I also have a question regarding the Nitrogen injection - is this a pre-processed compressed nitrogen, or are we simply filtering the air intake to remove everything but the nitrogen as it passes through the filter? Since 99% of atmospheric gases are Nitrogen and Oxygen, passing this through a filter that extracts the oxygen would probably leave us with a high concentration of nitrogen for the bubbler - but I guess I am curious if we need to add more energy to compress it too.

Thanx -

BTW, did you get a chance to read my emails on the frequency multipliers and dimensions?

Cheers
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Old 11-20-2010, 08:17 PM
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plasma ignition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
Aaron,
NO THERMAL PLASMA IS NEEDED , NO CAPACITOR DISCHARGE IS NEEDED, NO AQUAPULSER IGNITION IS NEEDED!!
Probably can work but you need special circuit for recharge fast your capacitor and surely you need tungsten plugs, I have spent some months waiting Aquapulser for an new ignition and don't have obtain nothing because they have some problems.. I have buy from they also two RPG4700 for test and after little time these are dead. After you have to think what appear on head of piston with higly discharges of plasma in the time. You need a reliable engine!!

The new ignition for crack ammonia does not release destructive energy and isn't dangerous for your life including the right spark plugs without tungsten inside. You have to build your right ignition basing you on scientific document that I have attach. When Mike have finished and tested RF module on new reactor you can obtain also new ignition module and plugs for install inside your car and go with ammonia and nitrous oxide.
It may be true that the plasma is not needed.

However...

1. I already have a high speed plasma circuit that works. I also already
have a solution for a plasma ignition that can operate up to 10,000 rpm
on a V8 if I want with up to 1.4~1.5 Joules per discharge and with the
right process, higher joule discharge is not needed. My current high
speed plasma circuit already works fine but IF I want high speed
monster plasma bursts like in my videos, I have it. The one I have now
is about 0.320 Joules or 320m Joules per discharge and may be as low
as 200~250m Joules.
2. I already created an igniter from two off the shelf parts and
tungsten is not needed. I can also swap out the electrode to
be any metal such as tungsten if I want in about 30 seconds
3. I already have a suitable engine and it doesn't have any pistons

Again, plasma may not be needed but I already have the plasma solution
that works so I will use it. Perhaps someone that hasn't started on an
ignition system can use a non-plasma method.

Also, I will inspect something soon, but I believe the damage is insignificant
because the relationship of the flow of air to the location of where the
plasma happens is that the air is hitting it from the side, much different
from an internal combustion engine. Even if there is damage, it doesn't
matter in my engine because it could withstand abuse for years without
any problems. It simply will not make any difference. In time, you'll see
what I mean. My air/fuel is moving in a very efficient vortex.

I don't want to distract from the topic of this thread - rf molecule
formation.

We can talk about the ignition in the water sparkplug thread if you want.
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Last edited by Aaron; 11-20-2010 at 08:19 PM.
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  #386  
Old 11-21-2010, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
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Hi Mike,

That's 40 Joules in, but we would need to know density and purity of the water in that volume to get to the resultant energy product of the decompressed gases, wouldn't we? So the pressure of the 5L space would play a part too.

I also have a question regarding the Nitrogen injection - is this a pre-processed compressed nitrogen, or are we simply filtering the air intake to remove everything but the nitrogen as it passes through the filter? Since 99% of atmospheric gases are Nitrogen and Oxygen, passing this through a filter that extracts the oxygen would probably leave us with a high concentration of nitrogen for the bubbler - but I guess I am curious if we need to add more energy to compress it too.

Thanx -

BTW, did you get a chance to read my emails on the frequency multipliers and dimensions?

Cheers
Hi Harvey

Well, there are many many variables in what you have said and the only way to get a real answer is to build it and measure it, but, you could take the purity of the water as taken from osmosis and then add 2% salt, why salt, something to do with the ionic state I think, but with that we are off subject.
The pressure is also a variable which can't be tied down, depends on the through put at any one time.

The nitrogen can come in two forms, that of returning the nitrogen from the exhaust or using a membrain filter for air, the later will be 99.9% pure, the former will be rare gases pluse water vapour, so you could say about the same, 99.9% pure. Remember the nitrogen will pass through unchanged N2 plus water vapour from the explosion of H and O and of course rare gases, nothing happens to those I think.

I will send you answers to the e-mails tomorrow, have had a lot to do and been suffering from jet lag

Mike
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  #387  
Old 11-21-2010, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
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Nvisser,

The key has always been nitrogen.


So when split, it has the strongest suction for anything negatively charged.
3 H's can join to Nitrogen to make nh3. N is just a carrier for 3 atomic
HI Aaaron,

Your explaination isn't complete you have forget N2O .. as you know H2O is dissociated in H+ OH- ions and N2 is transformed in N+N

The right reaction is that:

N+OH --> NO+H

NO+N-->N2+O


N+H (H,M) -->NH3


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Last edited by tutanka; 11-21-2010 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:37 AM
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rf circuit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
HI Aaaron,
Your explaination isn't complete you have forget N2O .. as you know H2O is dissociated in H+ OH- ions and N2 is transformed in N+N

The right reaction is that:

N+OH --> NO+H

NO+N-->N2+O


N+H (H,M) -->NH3


I have mentioned multiple times that n2o is part of the reaction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
nh3 and n2o have always been the real water fuel. Other nitrogen oxygen
compounds are formed as well.
How many members here are in the process of building an rf circuit
at the moment?
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Aaron Murakami

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Old 11-21-2010, 07:12 AM
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I have got the parts but has no idea how to lay out the pc board and this ferris wheel grabbed most of my attention now.
After this conference there are so many new ideas for older unfinished projects that I have to gather all the information together and than go sit and focus on one thing at a time.
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Old 11-21-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I have mentioned multiple times that n2o is part of the reaction:
I will remember that I got the idea that nitrogen was the key for solve Meyer secret ( see old H2opower thread).

That is the complete reaction, many peoples think that N2O was formed from molecular nitrogen and atomic oxygen instead is atomic Nitrogen that capture atomic Oxygen from OH ions.
Is very different and that help a lot for build right system.
Also the water used in process is very important because NH3 is formed ONLY using an PH <7. Regards
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Last edited by tutanka; 02-25-2011 at 11:52 PM.
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