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  #301 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:39 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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I understood

My design is too well complicated and expensive for me to propose anyone replication for now. I' up to finish it yet. Theory holds however because the principle is one, water. Nice to see you are still using some water i felt 1 million years old when i read that.=) I'm sure h2 works well just the same just consume more water... But i think you are right about your decision to not share. Siemens could copy it suddenly and take you out of the game. You should wait enough time. But about safety, you could have a sane competition that would let you have your space however and maybe would be able to keep you safer.

I hope you all the best man and i hope as i told you that we can do many big things together along this big road. There is space for everyone to give a hand and become a local reseller. I can't wait to see your demonstration in a real car i'm very anxious too.

I hope when i can figure out your technology to patent also it .... i'm just kidding hahahaha i would never do this!!!
and don't worry, you know i believe every one merits the fruits of own efforts. And you merit it. Be smart don't let them choose how much is your price.

This video is for you as a gift, for now is the only thing i can materially give to you, in this moment Enjoy
YouTube - Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen! (ORIGINAL VERSION + ENGLISH SUBTITLES)
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  #302 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:56 AM
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rosco1 rosco1 is offline
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Get real.

It never ceases to amaze me when people jump off half cocked and rave on about freedom and free energy and all that should go with it.

Everyone wants free energy, yippee...yay! But nobody seems to think there should be a price for admission.

Right now, each and every one of us is forking out money, hand over fist, to secure electricity to run our homes, and for fuel to run our vehicles, and while we all hope to break free of that cycle, the deluded seem to think that they should not have to pay for the privelage of breaking free. Astonishing really!

Let me see if I get this straight, we inventors are simply supposed to work on a significant project like this, at great financial expense to ourselves, with huge time input, thousands upon thousands of hours collectively, to then be expected to fabricate all of the parts for millions and millions of free energy systems, and then just stand out on the street corners, handing them out willy nilly to anyone passing by? "Hey mate, you want a free energy device, no charge", "here, take 2", one for the kids to play with". What a great and nobel idea, really.

That does seem like a mighty generous proposition, though I'm not sure even a Saint would do something like that.

Before you all throw another hissy fit, I'd like to run a scenario past you, something that you can all try, just to see if it works, and if it does, then I'll stand corrected, and I'll then reconsider my position accordingly...

Scenario:
You want a new car, but you don't wanna pay for fuel anymore, so you just float on into the new car dealership upon whatever cloud you're on, and ask the manager for a brand spankin' new hybrid chariot. But oh, what's that, you don't wanna pay for this glorious new ride?

Do you seriously think the manager will just hand you the keys and wish you all the best? Might work, try it and see.

Or will you be dragged outta there, a' kickin' an' a' squeelin' by the men in white coats? A rather more than likely outcome perhaps...

Security is a fact of modern day life, and that is also how you will be able to protect your free energy investment, unless you're happy for someone else to just take off with it when your not looking. By your reasoning it's free remember! Yeah right...that'll work.

People are already publicly posting on how they intend to steal this concept, and even more amazingly, they're openly posting on how they'll then reverse engineer it once they get their hands on it. I have an email here, copied from the Yahoo forums, stating precisely that.

Please people, try to get real. Open talk of blatant theft is really not going to help anyone.

If you're truly crazed enough to believe you should not have to pay for access to free energy, nor for any of the parts of a free energy system, even after you've already been told that these parts cannot be made at home and require precision/advanced skills, then I strongly urge you to try out that "new hybrid car" scenario. They actually do have free energy of sorts in prisons/mental homes, you won't have to pay for it as an inmate, we taxpayers grudgingly cover those costs for you.

Unbelieveable!

Last edited by rosco1 : 02-08-2010 at 01:59 AM. Reason: spelling error
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  #303 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:08 AM
pengrove pengrove is offline
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rosco, yep its unbelievable that people would even think about having a gps locating system with sim card on an alternative energy device. Why would you do that, so they can target us and know where to aim the missile? I hope you do make lots of money you deserve it. But I surely hope that you find a better way to secure your investment.
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  #304 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:13 AM
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rosco1 rosco1 is offline
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But...but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtweth View Post

And LoL, @ Rosco i must be easy on the eye as i have met government and Peter Garrett and been on TV already. I am known for the honesty, support and ideas not looks

Ash
But...but, Ash, my idea may have afforded me one last opportunity to wear my old "Midnight Oil" "Head Injuries" t-shirt...while in the presence of the big fella himself.

Oh well, probably for the best I suppose, my stomach bones have grown somewhat since I was a young chap, and the shirt probably doesn't really suit my new aerodynamically shaped physique.
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  #305 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 03:31 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
YOU HAVE WRITE AN TRUE STANDARD CHEMICAL REACTION BUT you can't use that in our application, you need some pressure similar italian Lens becasue N2 isn't reactive in normal condition.. Solution is ONLY mathematical... with final solution for you is simple understand how reaction start..
Thank you again for the clue . Wish luck for the next technology publication .

Selling as kit is usual practice isn't it? But would there be yearly subscription?
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  #306 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:40 AM
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Oneminde Oneminde is offline
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At rosco1 & Tutanka

I feel I must jump in here and actually support you guy's and rosco1 you descripe a situation that in many cases is called "real life". What many now seam to forgett is that no matter what you want to produce is going to cost money and time of your life (time is one currency yes). Also, we must respect the inventors way, demand them to give things away.. hmm - as an exempel sebasfato, I want you to send me your device in the mail, yep just like that, I will email you my adress okay there budy... mmhm!

What is that now, you want an electric engine, batterys and controlers for your new electric car also for free...
Or maybe you want Sandvik to send you some shiny new tubes for your new WFC.. I see.. or or maybe you want DuPont to send you material for your PEM Fuel Cell also for free.. or or BMW to send you that hydrogen injector. piston AND cryogenic tank so you can convert your car for FREE.. I see...

Well, the first member that succeed whit this, do please tell me how you did and I will also do that... okay there budy, thanks..

Or lets look at it at another angle, a 14 year old kid manage to re enginer by reading this tread and ooops, the device blow up and he died... wow, no one saw that one coming ... or or (I think you see my point).
Get real...

Free, be glad that your air is free and that you do not have to pay taxes when steping out on the pawement literal, a guy stands there and charge you, that litteral. (so far)...

There are also certain people here that now have totaly forgett that the intire reason why you have such a high status IS becouse you pay taxes.
If you want to live in a society where everything is free, maybe you should start following the Zeitgeist movment...

So instead of jumping tutanka and rosco1, ask them nicly if you can get a discount instead of telling them to F*** off becouse they implement real life situations..

Anyway, my 2 cents and have a nice day.

Last edited by Oneminde : 02-08-2010 at 05:44 AM.
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  #307 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:07 AM
Rizard Rizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
HI RIzard,
Yes.. Are some years that we pay and burn gasoline and we have spent a lot of moneys.. You refer to FREE ENERGY.. ok.. Please suppose that scenario.. I public into thread complete chemical reaction and right design including all components needed.. after 5 minutes some peoples or companies have copied these informations and go to patent office.. after that you believe also on FREE ENERGY? After one day my name AS CREATOR IS FORGOTTEN.. NO SORRY.. FREE ENERGY IN REAL WORLD DON'T EXIST BECAUSE MEN DON'T ARE READY FOR THAT! I have spent years to study and spent money for prototypes and tests.. little question.. I have made this in order to give to the people in the name of the FREE ENERGY? Instead is right put inside central unit GSM chip, that protect my work and also you from peoples that want copy. GSM chip is used also for monitoring central unit as good support for customer, because in fact is an new technology. I think that I have illuminated your mind with these words ..
I understand your consern, but I don't understand why you need to control people after they have made their decision to run your system. Would that be enough to buy the system and probably some services or updatepart etc. Would that be enough to fill your bank account? I would be happy to invest Euros for your functional product, but I don't like the idea that someone controls my life any other way. I'm not alone with these thoughts, I know.

Just to mention, there are few billion Chinese who are very handy with using hammer... one hit and your gsp tracking devise has lost position and two months later exactly similar products are on market in Asia... without the GPS functionality of course. And Asian people are happy while you're not. Those guys are not intrested on patents. I heard that they copy whole cars as Volvo has proved. Guess once, did they buy licence for doing it? I used to work in a company that built production lines for electric industry. They sold one complete line to Shanghai. Few months later they reported having some problem with it and service guys went to the factory and start look over and realized that the whole production line wasn't the one we sold. It was a copy! Including a lot of unique solutions and patents of our company.

As I mentioned earlier, the whole patent office is out of date... it really does block the development at least in western countries. But as you've been think this the consept through and put a lot of effort to develope GPS tracking sysem (instead of putting all the effort to the actual product!) all I can do is wish you all the best.
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  #308 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:50 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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Humm

Ive spent some monie trying to get a system going over the years.
I would have spread the word wide and far if I had done it.
HEY, EVERYONE, WOOD-GAS WORKS yes wood and air runs an engine.
YouTube - Wood gas car Start
The old since before, i got out of jail, GEET system works...

I have done both they work.

Regarding the nitrogenous fuels:
I'm not sure I understand the latest distribution realizations.
Especially panaceas involvement with a scheme like that.

Maybe a wait and see approach is in order. Again.....
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  #309 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:11 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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Arrow this ionization & water fuel thread

@Everyone

This is my thread and I started it to focus on the CONCEPTS involved
with water fuel and not to have it become a debate board. There is an
announcement thread if anyone wants to discuss the announcement.

Nobody else seemed really interested in looking more into the ionization
concepts and I saw a few posts by Alex and started this thread because
it seemed to address a few points that I have been leaning towards for
a while. I gave up long ago on trying to create a lot of HHO because it
became so obvious that Meyer was NOT creating enough to fully run
an engine so he was doing something else. At first I thought it was about
the magnetic fields alone altering the gas but it wasn't until I kept
persistently guessing wrong on Alex's hints that my research into active
nitrogen hit me. I don't know if active nitrogen can be confirmed but
nitrogen nevertheless is crucial.

It seemed Alex had been dropping hints in this forum since March of
last year and I didn't even know it but apparently nobody else was
interested enough to figure out what he was hinting to until I brought it
into this thread and finally had it confirmed that nitrogen was indeed an
important part of the mix. My loss of sleep is responsible for bringing
this attention to Alex's team so fast. Don't forget that! Trying to maintain
laser focus in the online world these days is no easy task with all the
disruptions these days.

There are MULTIPLE successes with water powered engines.

Alex's team may have the most practical and easy to retrofit solution,
I don't know - it hasn't been completely revealed. But if the plasma plug
alone holds up to the claims, that in itself is worth its weight in gold,
that is just common sense to anyone that desires to use a serious
plasma ignition.

And if it actually can just run a generator on water - two in series as
Rosco mentioned, that is priceless. My home uses an average of 1kw/hour 24/7 or about 720kwh/month. If I had a generator that was able to produce 5kw
nonstop, the power company will pay me 4-5 times what my electric
bill cost. What is the ROI on this kind of investment? Of course that
depends on the price but if the guarantee and support is there to back
it and I get that return, it is just common sense to do it.

Anyway, the purpose of open source is not to become a member of a discount
wholesale club, it is for FREE INFORMATION. And if anyone hasn't
appreciated the value of simply being tapped on the shoulder to have
the importance of nitrogen pointed out - even Meyer said so - then
nothing will be appreciated. That is self-apparent.

Build a cell and start experimenting with the information in this
thread. Experiment with air ionization and experiment with recycling exhaust
back to the cell. Try to get a slow burning flame on an HHO setup with
nitrogen/ambient air injection.

Look at Dr. Stiffler's video:
YouTube - Can Water be Burned #3 - candle flame from water

If someone sees that and doesn't realize the significance, then that person
needs a different hobby. I don't even know the schematic that Dr. Stiffler
is using for that demo but I'd like to see it.

Point is... if you can get a slow
burning flame from water - you are empowered in a very big way. Most
people just don't comprehend the significance of most of what they see.
There are so many treasures in this forum and some people are wondering
where over 1.0 cop devices are. Get real!

Is there one single person with an HHO cell that has seen this thread that
has actually started to apply the info to see a slowdown on the burn of a
flame?

Less than a week ago, there were 2806 views in this thread and it wasn't
until I posted my doc and a few links were sprinkled around the net that
this thread started to catch some serious attention. There are over
8200 views at the moment and it seems to be gaining momentum.

I'll tell you this and Alex's team may not even agree but the information I
compiled in that nitrogen hydroxide document has already given other
people results on other engines even if the nitrogen hydroxide could
go by other names. It may not be as sophisticated or efficient or
practical but that isn't the point to open source. It is to get information,
take it and use it and develop it. And if anyone can just run a lawnmower,
even if it makes a lot of water in the exhaust and ruins the engine. I
personally don't care to snub my nose at success in any form that it comes. Just get SOMETHING to work to learn from it and evolve it.

Also, if you can simply make a very slow burning flame so that it equals
natural gas burn rate... of course everyone should know exactly what
that means if they read this thread, you can heat all the water you want
and hot water can be used in many ways!

Again, this might be completely different than Alex's process but the point
is that the purpose of this thread was to originally focus on Alex's specific
process, but obviously the ionized nitrogen plays a part in slowing the
burn and this would happen for a gas flame also as Meyer showed in his
diagrams and text.

I don't know of any other single thread on the entire internet that spells
out the importance of the non-combustible gases in the water fuel
systems and what that importance is. Anyone that is paying attention
should be able to see that this thread could potentially all by itself
be responsible for getting the entire online HHO experimenters world on
the right track to 100% water fueled engines and slow gas flames.

There is more than one way to use HHO and this thread just focuses on
the one that is probably the easiest for anyone that already has a cell
to start experimenting with.

So go share the info and get the experimenters to try to prove or disprove
if the nitrogen does or does not slow down the burn of the flame. That is
the only way that anyone is going to know for themselves what this really
is.

Again, please don't fill this thread with debates and demands of people
that have no obligation to give anything to anyone. Be appreciative that
Alex has even been as open as he has about ionization and the nitrogen
importance. If you have comments on Rosco's announcement, please post
them in that thread
- NOT HERE.

There is no obligation or guarantee that he will
respond - he doesn't have to - but please keep this thread focused on
the technology. I know Rosco posted the announcement here but that is
just an announcement and there is a separate thread for that.

Anyway, my hat goes off to Alex, Rosco and Robin for coming this far
and being as open as they already have

This thread is already a treasure in the water fuel world and I just hope
that people can respect the fact that the information that has been
posted has been freely given to everyone and nothing was asked in
return.
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  #310 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:20 AM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizard View Post
I understand your consern, but I don't understand why you need to control people after they have made their decision to run your system. Would that be enough to buy the system and probably some services or updatepart etc. Would that be enough to fill your bank account? I would be happy to invest Euros for your functional product, but I don't like the idea that someone controls my life any other way. I'm not alone with these thoughts, I know.

Just to mention, there are few billion Chinese who are very handy with using hammer... one hit and your gsp tracking devise has lost position and two months later exactly similar products are on market in Asia... without the GPS functionality of course. And Asian people are happy while you're not. Those guys are not intrested on patents. I heard that they copy whole cars as Volvo has proved. Guess once, did they buy licence for doing it? I used to work in a company that built production lines for electric industry. They sold one complete line to Shanghai. Few months later they reported having some problem with it and service guys went to the factory and start look over and realized that the whole production line wasn't the one we sold. It was a copy! Including a lot of unique solutions and patents of our company.

As I mentioned earlier, the whole patent office is out of date... it really does block the development at least in western countries. But as you've been think this the consept through and put a lot of effort to develope GPS tracking sysem (instead of putting all the effort to the actual product!) all I can do is wish you all the best.
Rizard,
WE DON'T WANT CONTROL ANYTHYNG ONLY PRESERVE WATER SYSTEM FROM COPIERS... and use an active communication system is the right way. As previoulsy written active control can help a lot for have 24h support on device. We don't want trace you.. I don't put inside central unit also GPS device.. Our project want preserve ONLY technology and create an real network trought entire world. Central unit admin also WIFI/HIPERLAN DEVICE that permit Wireless Mesh connection FOR FREE trought users that use that system, to home or in car. In fact EXTRANET connection and INTERNET at the same time. With that when you use energy system you have active also Voip, Videoconference, internet ALL FOR FREE.. We have engineers specialized also on wireless communication and for us is an simple implementation..

Last edited by tutanka : 02-08-2010 at 08:55 AM.
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  #311 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:42 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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misc, catalysts and old papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmeast View Post
Oh...I just ran a 7HP Briggs engine (with the wasted spark) on water and 15% isopropanol using my Vexus circuit and the Silver Firestorm Robin made me. I had to sleeve and re-tap the cylinder head to receive the plug. - Just a hint: The isopropanol and water were not mixed but instead aspirated via separate carburetors.
I'm just posting this here from the water sparkplug thread to prove a point.
Greg is always doing hands on experimentation and has benefited from
open source. 85% water and 15% alcohol is VERY SIGNIFICANT. It doesn't
sound like all the ionization process to me but the fact is, if you can
run any engine on 85% water and 15% alcohol, you are getting
SPECTACULAR RESULTS!

That Vexus circuit in my opinion was just an inverted copy of what was
developed in that thread, but in any case, the schematic is FREE and
available in that thread. So are various plans for Firestorm replications
with photos and descriptions. How many people have personally used
or experimented with that free information that was given out to the
world that DOES work and does give gas mileage improvement and
has shown to be able to make water explode?

I know not everyone is an engineer or EE or has those skills and only
a small percentage of people will do it themselves. I can pretty much
come up with just about anything I want to do but I would love to go
down to my local department store and buy a water powered generator.

The smart thing to do is understand the info as much as possible and
do what can be done to make it myself and when the opportunity is there
to be able to spend money and buy it ready made, I'll do that if it is
within my ability and it makes sense on the bottom line but I'll never
wait around for it to be handed to me on a silver platter.

Anyway, enough of that, I'm back on topic.

Research catalysts for O, H and N... hydrogen instantly dissociates
in the presence of tungsten at certain temperatures like 1300 degrees.
There are other metal catalysts like nickel, iron oxide and others that
stimulate the production of various molecules from the water cell.
I'm not saying Alex is using those necessarily, just that there are
just so many things that have been proven to speed up or slow down
reactions.

Also, I'd recommend searching back to the 30's and earlier on info for
o, h, n and electricity. I am finding that much of that old research
supports the argument for everything that has been mentioned about
"nitrogen hydroxide" in this thread.
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  #312 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:00 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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Meyer's spelled it out

I saw Sucahyo post this from Meyer's tech manual.

Again, spelling it out:

"Water droplets (28a xxx 28n) escaping from spray-mist (47) and exposed to high intensity voltage fields of opposite polarity 33/36) are stimulated to undergo Electrical Polarization Process (160) of Figure (3-26) ... which not only separates and splits the unlike atoms of the water molecule but also causes the unlike atoms (hydrogen atoms 77a /77b and oxygen atom 76) to experience electron ejection (230) of Figure (3-30) as to (71) of Figure (4-10) since voltage intensifier circuit (110) of Figure (4-9) inhibits and prevents electron flow to enter into gas ignition process (180), as further illustrated in Figure (4-8).

The newly liberated water molecule atoms (oxygen 76 and hydrogen atoms 77a/77b) immediately interact with laser primed ionized ambient air gases (7a xxx 7n of Figure 1-15) (see WFC memo 420) to cause the resultant highly energized and mass destabilized combustible gas atoms (93a xxx 93n) of Figure (4-10) to perform Hydrogen Fracturing Process (80) of Figure (49) when electrostatic force (14/16) thermally ignites (kinetic agitation) destabilized water-fuel mixture (93a xxx 93n) under gas compression ... preventing the formation of the water molecule during thermal gas ignitionsatisfying Energy Gas Detonation Equation."
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  #313 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:12 PM
pengrove pengrove is offline
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bingo

So Stan was using LED's and lasers to cause an infrared hydrogen bond shift causing it to bond with nitrogen creating a new fuel. And using exhaust gasses insures that you have less oxygen and hydrogen re-bonding, but ambient air could work also as it would just not be optimal.

This is exactly what your tec is doing am I correct tutanka?

THE REACTION OF HYDROGEN ATOMS WITH LIQUID OZONE1 - The Journal of Physical Chemistry (ACS Publications)

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  #314 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 02:18 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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I think tutanka use different method from Meyer, Tutanka mention air relative-ionizing, microwave plasma and plasma plug while this is what Meyer do:
Quote:
Typically, the WFC Water Fuel Injector performs many sequential functions is an instant of time: liberates the hydrogen/oxygen gases from the injected water droplet; oscillates the free-floating combustible gases under pulsating electrical stress to cause "particle oscillation as an energy generator"; and lastly ionizes the combustible gases by electron ejection prior to the point where the pressurrized gases is expelled from the nozzle port of the WFC Water fule Injector. As the stretched out (elongated) expelling gases return to stable state of equilibrium, the flexing gas atom, releases the trigger energy that starts and propagates the gas ignition process for energy utilization
more at other thread:
My proposed theory on how Stanley Meyer made use of water as a source of fuel.

The construction of the Meyer plug are water mist meet laser/HV ionized ambient air, then meet exhaust gas. The sequence seems important that it is mentioned few time that water mist must meet ionized ambient air first. Other diagram show water, then ambient then exhaust, other injector show the middle is water then ambient then exhaust at the most outside.

Since it is inside a plug, it obviously very hot thus will also aid ionizing and/or chemical reaction.

The mixed gas then being exposed to increasingly closer pulsed low amp DC 30kv-40kv HV ionizer which do more chemical reaction. Ionizing will prevent reaction stabilizing. When existing nozzle, the molecule will stabilize and explode.

the 2:1 ratio is needed to avoid the build up of NOx. Water mist from resulting process can be reclaimed by exposing it to sunlight and let it condensed and flow to water container. ionized gases from ambient air aid combustion. sunlight exposed somthing sustain the atomic dwell time to allow sufficient spark-ignition of the combustion gases.

I don't think this is the same as what Tutanka use for the process.

Last edited by sucahyo : 02-09-2010 at 03:02 AM.
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  #315 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 04:19 AM
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Nitrogen Hydroxide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Here is a 3 page compilation of this thread. I condensed it into a couple
categories. It is short and sweet. It is INCOMPLETE. There are a few
things that need to be added that may or may not be apparent to get
a full working motor.
But it will give the Nitrogen Hydroxide story and more.
How to Make Nitrogen Hydroxide

EDIT: This is version 1.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by tutanka View Post
Aaron,
On you pdf you have write:

The abundant positively charged nitrogen acts as a natural EEC (Electron Extraction Circuit) and sucks up electrons, which prevent water from forming by the H2 and O bonding.

The true reason is that the exaust gas are recycled inside to engine because these react as initially inside the cell forming N(OH)2... When you irradiate "conductive" water droplets with (UV) and/or HV release OH radicals and N1, created from combustion inside chambre, acquire these and Hydrogen 2H is released and burned at the same time releasing N(OH)2 still as exaust gas.. this is the TRUE reason because Meyer recycle these inside engine, more RPM more gas needed and casually Meyer use an "EXAUST CONTROL VALVE" for that. Here you can found Italian Lens experiment based on that (N2 or CO) in italian language but you can translate.. L'idrogeno ottenuto dall'acqua - Chimici.info or I can for you.

In italian...

"Nel caso specifico la sintesi di idrogeno stata ottenuta da acqua miscelata con azoto o monossido di carbonio. Mediante la luce di un laser a ioni argon, e in particolare una radiazione ultravioletta a 350 nanometri, le molecole di acqua si sono dissociate in radicali OH e atomi di idrogeno.
Il radicale OH reagisce con laltra specie presente nella miscela (N₂ oppure CO), e gli atomi di idrogeno si legano per dare H₂."

In English..


"In the event specific the hydrogen synthesis has been obtained from water mixed with nitrogen or carbon monoxide. By means of the light of an argon ion laser, and in particular an ultraviolet radiation to 350 nanometers, the water molecules have dissociated in radicals OH and hydrogen atoms. Radical OH reacts with the other present species in the mixture (N ₂ or CO), and the hydrogen atoms are tied for giving H ₂"
This is requested by a few people and here is a correction by Tutanka.
The chemistry sequence in the doc may or may not be right, but the
point is, nitrogen is important.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:58 AM
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High-pressure photodissociation of water as a tool for hydrogen synthesis and fundame

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Here is the complete article in English that I posted on Feb 1.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:07 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Hi tutanka wouldn't your process to achieve the thermal energy by combining the h2 02 with n2 or whatever, create also an very big amount of NO's in the exhaust output? And consume more oxygen from atmosphere?

I mean this because i was thinking that maybe your thermal energy is coming from the extra reaction of the nitrogen combined (bigger molecule as you state) with still more oxygen from air.

Basically in this case yes you will obtain more thermal explosive energy but would still consume the oxygen from the air and still release a big amount of Nox.

Can you please tell me if i'm wrong?

the nitrogen hydroxide can be used to improve growth of plants a lot did you knew it?
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:11 AM
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Meyer did say you didnt get all the oxygen back. I've seen the video his lips said that.
Maybe its not destroyed atomically just converted to an oxide that's not as bad.

Maybe he was thinking you don't get all the nitrogen back???

If the exhaust has Fixed Nitrogen in it than were doing nature a favor.

Dave
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:18 AM
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The differing larger energy outputs are from Mono-Atomic H1 + H1 = H2 type reactions and then the H2+O2 type reactions that follow.

Nitrogen fixes Hydrogen (ie holds it for us) later it can be sparked when needed.

The differences are known.

Dave
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:18 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_cahoon View Post
Meyer did say you didnt get all the oxygen back. I've seen the video his lips said that.
Maybe its not destroyed atomically just converted to an oxide that's not as bad.

Maybe he was thinking you don't get all the nitrogen back???

If the exhaust has Fixed Nitrogen in it than were doing nature a favor.

Dave
NOX are pollution as much or worse than CO2 or C0
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:27 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
NOX are pollution as much or worse than CO2 or C0
You think CO2 is pollution thats part of the problem, Its not pollution.

I cant get into that anymore than that its simple, furans dioxins poisons co2 LOL
I'm very sorry for affending you in anyway whatsoever DAC

Fixed nitrogen maybe bad for the city...

Dave
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
Hi tutanka wouldn't your process to achieve the thermal energy by combining the h2 02 with n2 or whatever, create also an very big amount of NO's in the exhaust output? And consume more oxygen from atmosphere?

I mean this because i was thinking that maybe your thermal energy is coming from the extra reaction of the nitrogen combined (bigger molecule as you state) with still more oxygen from air.

Basically in this case yes you will obtain more thermal explosive energy but would still consume the oxygen from the air and still release a big amount of Nox.

Can you please tell me if i'm wrong?

the nitrogen hydroxide can be used to improve growth of plants a lot did you knew it?

NOx... they are not released as exaust gas.. I can't write complete formula but we are speaking about chemistry (mathematical) not magical system as yours
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
Hi tutanka wouldn't your process to achieve the thermal energy by combining the h2 02 with n2 or whatever, create also an very big amount of NO's in the exhaust output? And consume more oxygen from atmosphere?
According to Honda exhaust document posted by h2opower a rich mixture will produce more NH3 and less NOx.
Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - Honda Develops Next-Generation Clean Diesel Engine
Quote:
- During lean burn operation, the NOx adsorbent in the lower layer adsorbs NOx from the exhaust gas.
- As needed, the engine management system adjusts the engine air-fuel ratio to rich-burn, wherein the NOx in the NOx adsorption layer reacts with hydrogen (H2) obtained from the exhaust gas to produce ammonia (NH3).The adsorbent material in the upper layer temporarily adsorbs the NH3.
-When the engine returns to lean-burn operation, NH3 adsorbed in the upper layer reacts with NOx in the exhaust gas and reduces it to harmless nitrogen (N2).

According to Meyer NOx can be reduced if Oxygen to Hydrogen ratio is 2:1. If it still exist, I think tutanka can just use his ionizer to clean up, just like what Meyer do, using his VIC ionizer to exhaust. This should work just like catalytic converter:
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  #324 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 07:30 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Well yes i know, i got interested in your process too and today i got the all night free for studying about it.

At ambient temperatures, the oxygen and nitrogen gases in air will not react with each other. In an internal combustion engine, combustion of a mixture of air and fuel produces combustion temperatures high enough to drive endothermic reactions between atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen in the flame, yielding various oxides of nitrogen. In areas of high motor vehicle traffic, such as in large cities, the amount of nitrogen oxides emitted into the atmosphere can be quite significant.
In the presence of excess oxygen (O2), nitric oxide (NO) will be converted to nitrogen dioxide (NO2),

Mono-nitrogen oxides eventually form nitric acid when dissolved in atmospheric moisture, forming a component of acid rain. The following chemical reaction occurs when nitrogen dioxide reacts with water:
2 NO2 + H2O → HNO2 + HNO3

Nitrous acid then decomposes as follows:
3 HNO2 → HNO3 + 2 NO + H2O
where nitric oxide will oxidize to form nitrogen dioxide that again reacts with water, ultimately forming nitric acid:
4 NO + 3 O2 + 2 H2O → 4 HNO3

Mono-nitrogen oxides are also involved in tropospheric production of ozone.
NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O) which has many uses as an oxidizer, an anesthesia, and a food additive.

Nitrous oxide is produced during thunderstorms due to the extreme heat of lightning,[4] and is caused by the splitting of nitrogen molecules. This can result in the production of acid rain, if nitrous oxide forms compounds with the water molecules in precipitation, thus creating acid rain.

The Kyoto Protocol, ratified by 54 nations in 1997, classifies N2O as a greenhouse gas, and calls for substantial worldwide reductions in its emission.

The use of exhaust gas recirculation and catalytic converters in motor vehicle engines have significantly reduced emissions.

Agricultural fertilization and the use of nitrogen fixing plants also contribute to atmospheric NOx, by promoting nitrogen fixation by microorganisms.

Oxidized (cationic) and reduced (anionic) derivatives of many of these oxides exist: nitrite (NO-2), nitrate (NO-3), nitronium (NO+2), and nitrosonium (NO+). NO2 is intermediate between nitrite and nitronium:
NO2+ + e− → NO2
NO2 + e− → NO2−



Nitrogen dioxide is a paramagnetic bent molecule with C2v point group symmetry.

Nitrogen dioxide typically arises via the oxidation of nitric oxide by oxygen in air:
2 NO + O2 → 2 NO2

The chemistry of nitrogen dioxide has been investigated extensively. At 150 C, NO2 decomposes with release of oxygen via an endothermic process (ΔH = 114 kJ/mol):
2 NO2 → 2 NO + O2

As suggested by the weakness of the NO bond, NO2 is a good oxidizer and will sustain the combustion, sometimes explosively, with many compounds, such as hydrocarbons.

It hydrolyzes with disproportionation to give nitric acid:
3 NO2 + H2O → NO + 2 HNO3

The most important sources of NO2 are internal combustion engines,[4] thermal power stations and, to a lesser extent, pulp mills. Butane gas heaters and stoves are also sources. The excess air required for complete combustion of fuels in these processes introduces nitrogen into the combustion reactions at high temperatures and produces nitrogen oxides (NOx). Limiting NOx production demands the precise control of the amount of air used in combustion.
Nitrogen dioxide is also produced by atmospheric nuclear tests, and is responsible for the reddish colour of mushroom clouds.[5]
Nitrogen dioxide is a large scale pollutant, with rural background ground level concentrations in some areas around 30 g/m3, not far below unhealthy levels.

If this document howtomakenitrogenhydroxide.pdf information is correct, you are saying that you are not using an electrolyte. But states that the exhaust gases (containing No and No2) should pass thru the water thus it should create nitric acid witch is will behave as electrolyte right? You mean by no electrolyte the non use of koh or nah ...?

Dinitrogen tetroxide N2O4

Use as a rocket propellant

Power generation using:
The tendency of N2O4 to reversibly break into NO2 has led to research into its use in advanced power generation systems as a so-called dissociating gas. "Cool" nitrogen tetroxide is compressed and heated, causing it to dissociate into nitrogen dioxide at half the molecular weight. This hot nitrogen dioxide is expanded through a turbine, cooling it and lowering the pressure, and then cooled further in a heat sink, causing it to recombine into nitrogen tetroxide at the original molecular weight. It is then much easier to compress to start the entire cycle again.

Synthesis of metal nitrates
N2O4 behaves as the salt [NO+][NO3−], the former being a strong oxidant:
2 N2O4 + M → 2 NO + M(NO3)2



Nitric acid (HNO3), also known as aqua fortis and spirit of nitre, is a highly corrosive and toxic strong acid.

Nitric acid is made by reacting nitrogen dioxide (NO2) with water.
3 NO2 + H2O → 2 HNO3 + NO


Oxidizing properties
Reactions with metals:
Being a powerful oxidizing agent, nitric acid reacts violently with many organic materials and the reactions may be explosive. Depending on the acid concentration, temperature and the reducing agent involved, the end products can be variable. Reaction takes place with all metals except a few of the precious metal series and certain alloys. This characteristic has made it a common agent to be used in acid tests. As a general rule, oxidizing reactions occur primarily with the concentrated acid, favoring the formation of nitrogen dioxide (NO2).
Cu + 4 H+ + 2 NO3− → Cu2+ + 2 NO2 + 2 H2O

The acidic properties tend to dominate with dilute acid, coupled with the preferential formation of nitric oxide (NO). However, when the reaction is carried out in the presence of atmospheric oxygen, the nitric oxide rapidly reacts to form brown nitrogen dioxide (NO2):
3 Cu + 8 HNO3 → 3 Cu(NO3)2 + 2 NO + 4 H2O
2 NO + O2 → 2 NO2
Since nitric acid is an oxidizing agent, hydrogen (H2) is rarely formed. Only magnesium (Mg), manganese (Mn) and calcium (Ca) react with cold, dilute nitric acid to give hydrogen:
Mg(s) + 2 HNO3(aq) → Mg(NO3)2(aq) + H2(g)


Nitrosonium ion or NO+ as NOBF4 is a strong oxidizing agent:
vs. ferrocene/ferrocenium, [NO]+ in CH2Cl2 solution has a redox potential of 1.00 V (or 1.46-1.48 V vs SCE)
vs. ferrocene/ferrocenium, [NO]+ in CH3CN solution has a redox potential of 0.87 V vs. (or 1.27-1.25 V vs SCE)
NOBF4 is a convenient oxidant because the byproduct NO is a gas, which can be swept from the reaction using a stream of N2. Upon contact with air, NO forms NO2, which can cause secondary reactions if it is not removed. NO2 is readily detectable by its characteristic orange color.

NO+ reacts readily with water to form nitrous acid HNO2.
Nitrous acid rapidly decomposes into nitrogen dioxide, nitric oxide, and water when in solution.
2 HNO2 → NO2 + NO + H2O
It also decomposes into nitric acid and nitrous oxide and water.
4 HNO2 → 2 HNO3 + N2O + H2O

Thanks Again
Best Regards

Last edited by sebosfato : 02-09-2010 at 07:45 AM.
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  #325 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:45 AM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
Well yes i know, i got interested in your process too and today i got the all night free for studying about it.

At ambient temperatures, the oxygen and nitrogen gases in air will not react with each other. In an internal combustion engine, combustion of a mixture of air and fuel produces combustion temperatures high enough to drive endothermic reactions between atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen in the flame, yielding various oxides of nitrogen. In areas of high motor vehicle traffic, such as in large cities, the amount of nitrogen oxides emitted into the atmosphere can be quite significant.
In the presence of excess oxygen (O2), nitric oxide (NO) will be converted to nitrogen dioxide (NO2),

Mono-nitrogen oxides eventually form nitric acid when dissolved in atmospheric moisture, forming a component of acid rain. The following chemical reaction occurs when nitrogen dioxide reacts with water:
2 NO2 + H2O → HNO2 + HNO3

Nitrous acid then decomposes as follows:
3 HNO2 → HNO3 + 2 NO + H2O
where nitric oxide will oxidize to form nitrogen dioxide that again reacts with water, ultimately forming nitric acid:
4 NO + 3 O2 + 2 H2O → 4 HNO3

Mono-nitrogen oxides are also involved in tropospheric production of ozone.
NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O) which has many uses as an oxidizer, an anesthesia, and a food additive.

Nitrous oxide is produced during thunderstorms due to the extreme heat of lightning,[4] and is caused by the splitting of nitrogen molecules. This can result in the production of acid rain, if nitrous oxide forms compounds with the water molecules in precipitation, thus creating acid rain.

The Kyoto Protocol, ratified by 54 nations in 1997, classifies N2O as a greenhouse gas, and calls for substantial worldwide reductions in its emission.

The use of exhaust gas recirculation and catalytic converters in motor vehicle engines have significantly reduced emissions.

Agricultural fertilization and the use of nitrogen fixing plants also contribute to atmospheric NOx, by promoting nitrogen fixation by microorganisms.

Oxidized (cationic) and reduced (anionic) derivatives of many of these oxides exist: nitrite (NO-2), nitrate (NO-3), nitronium (NO+2), and nitrosonium (NO+). NO2 is intermediate between nitrite and nitronium:
NO2+ + e− → NO2
NO2 + e− → NO2−



Nitrogen dioxide is a paramagnetic bent molecule with C2v point group symmetry.

Nitrogen dioxide typically arises via the oxidation of nitric oxide by oxygen in air:
2 NO + O2 → 2 NO2

The chemistry of nitrogen dioxide has been investigated extensively. At 150 C, NO2 decomposes with release of oxygen via an endothermic process (ΔH = 114 kJ/mol):
2 NO2 → 2 NO + O2

As suggested by the weakness of the NO bond, NO2 is a good oxidizer and will sustain the combustion, sometimes explosively, with many compounds, such as hydrocarbons.

It hydrolyzes with disproportionation to give nitric acid:
3 NO2 + H2O → NO + 2 HNO3

The most important sources of NO2 are internal combustion engines,[4] thermal power stations and, to a lesser extent, pulp mills. Butane gas heaters and stoves are also sources. The excess air required for complete combustion of fuels in these processes introduces nitrogen into the combustion reactions at high temperatures and produces nitrogen oxides (NOx). Limiting NOx production demands the precise control of the amount of air used in combustion.
Nitrogen dioxide is also produced by atmospheric nuclear tests, and is responsible for the reddish colour of mushroom clouds.[5]
Nitrogen dioxide is a large scale pollutant, with rural background ground level concentrations in some areas around 30 g/m3, not far below unhealthy levels.

If this document howtomakenitrogenhydroxide.pdf information is correct, you are saying that you are not using an electrolyte. But states that the exhaust gases (containing No and No2) should pass thru the water thus it should create nitric acid witch is will behave as electrolyte right? You mean by no electrolyte the non use of koh or nah ...?

Dinitrogen tetroxide N2O4

Use as a rocket propellant

Power generation using:
The tendency of N2O4 to reversibly break into NO2 has led to research into its use in advanced power generation systems as a so-called dissociating gas. "Cool" nitrogen tetroxide is compressed and heated, causing it to dissociate into nitrogen dioxide at half the molecular weight. This hot nitrogen dioxide is expanded through a turbine, cooling it and lowering the pressure, and then cooled further in a heat sink, causing it to recombine into nitrogen tetroxide at the original molecular weight. It is then much easier to compress to start the entire cycle again.

Synthesis of metal nitrates
N2O4 behaves as the salt [NO+][NO3−], the former being a strong oxidant:
2 N2O4 + M → 2 NO + M(NO3)2



Nitric acid (HNO3), also known as aqua fortis and spirit of nitre, is a highly corrosive and toxic strong acid.

Nitric acid is made by reacting nitrogen dioxide (NO2) with water.
3 NO2 + H2O → 2 HNO3 + NO


Oxidizing properties
Reactions with metals:
Being a powerful oxidizing agent, nitric acid reacts violently with many organic materials and the reactions may be explosive. Depending on the acid concentration, temperature and the reducing agent involved, the end products can be variable. Reaction takes place with all metals except a few of the precious metal series and certain alloys. This characteristic has made it a common agent to be used in acid tests. As a general rule, oxidizing reactions occur primarily with the concentrated acid, favoring the formation of nitrogen dioxide (NO2).
Cu + 4 H+ + 2 NO3− → Cu2+ + 2 NO2 + 2 H2O

The acidic properties tend to dominate with dilute acid, coupled with the preferential formation of nitric oxide (NO). However, when the reaction is carried out in the presence of atmospheric oxygen, the nitric oxide rapidly reacts to form brown nitrogen dioxide (NO2):
3 Cu + 8 HNO3 → 3 Cu(NO3)2 + 2 NO + 4 H2O
2 NO + O2 → 2 NO2
Since nitric acid is an oxidizing agent, hydrogen (H2) is rarely formed. Only magnesium (Mg), manganese (Mn) and calcium (Ca) react with cold, dilute nitric acid to give hydrogen:
Mg(s) + 2 HNO3(aq) → Mg(NO3)2(aq) + H2(g)


Nitrosonium ion or NO+ as NOBF4 is a strong oxidizing agent:
vs. ferrocene/ferrocenium, [NO]+ in CH2Cl2 solution has a redox potential of 1.00 V (or 1.46-1.48 V vs SCE)
vs. ferrocene/ferrocenium, [NO]+ in CH3CN solution has a redox potential of 0.87 V vs. (or 1.27-1.25 V vs SCE)
NOBF4 is a convenient oxidant because the byproduct NO is a gas, which can be swept from the reaction using a stream of N2. Upon contact with air, NO forms NO2, which can cause secondary reactions if it is not removed. NO2 is readily detectable by its characteristic orange color.

NO+ reacts readily with water to form nitrous acid HNO2.
Nitrous acid rapidly decomposes into nitrogen dioxide, nitric oxide, and water when in solution.
2 HNO2 → NO2 + NO + H2O
It also decomposes into nitric acid and nitrous oxide and water.
4 HNO2 → 2 HNO3 + N2O + H2O

Thanks Again
Best Regards

WITH ALL THESE REACTIONS IT IS NECESSARY AN ENGINE 8 STROKES ...
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  #326 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:53 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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ahaha good one


If this document howtomakenitrogenhydroxide.pdf information is correct, you are saying that you are not using an electrolyte. But states that the exhaust gases (containing No and No2) should pass thru the water thus it should create nitric acid witch is will behave as electrolyte right? You mean by no electrolyte the non use of koh or nah ... Right?

Last edited by sebosfato : 02-09-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
ahaha good one


If this document howtomakenitrogenhydroxide.pdf information is correct, you are saying that you are not using an electrolyte. But states that the exhaust gases (containing No and No2) should pass thru the water thus it should create nitric acid witch is will behave as electrolyte right? You mean by no electrolyte the non use of koh or nah ... Right?
Sorry .. but you don't work on 10Kw of H2 creation with only 100W?? Now you are interested to my work??
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  #328 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 01:31 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Tutanka,

You are a very cool wise fellow. This thread is much more fun than watching television because of the interaction of the many different personalities and attitudes. You have something everyone wants. Most people expect others to give much more than they themselves are willing to give but are blind to their own selfishness and the beat goes on.

Best Regards,
Slovenia
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:37 PM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Yes, actually even more than that but we have some complications to solve yet, like you may have too, i imagine. But man i'm interested in everything related . I'm however more curious and surprised than worried.

I'm not working against you, I'm working for maybe we can join forces together if possible...



Last edited by sebosfato : 02-09-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:52 PM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Originally Posted by sebosfato View Post
Yes, actually even more than that but we have some complications to solve yet, like you may have too, i imagine. But man i'm interested in everything related . I'm however more curious and surprised than worried.

I'm not working against you, I'm working for maybe we can join forces together if possible...


Sebo..... OK.... but that project is finished.. all is explained !! Maybe you can work to my other project. With Oneminde we are talking possibilty to developed an direct ammonia fuel cell

Last edited by tutanka : 02-09-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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