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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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Old 06-27-2009, 09:37 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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**ALERT** CAR RUNNING HHO ONLY 06-04-2009!! Daniel Dingle / Stanley Meyer style

Looks like these guys have this Geo Metro running HHO only with extremely low amount of LPM on the HHO via vaccuum and a propane conversion carb.

If this works the way it's presented and shown here it's THE END to the energy problem.

YouTube - HHO Generator 1st Generation (Car running ONLY on HHO)

YouTube - part 2. HHO Generator (Car running ONLY on HHO) Advance Tech Eng

YouTube - part 3. HHO Generator (Car running ONLY on HHO) Advance Tech Eng

YouTube - Follow up to the follow up Part 1 (car running hho only)

YouTube - Follow up to the follow up Part 2 (car running hho only)

Advance Tech Engineering, - Custom Diving Hookahs

This is an *ALERT* DOWNLOAD THESE via SaveTube - Save YouTube Videos and spread them to the four winds..

Better to be safe and spread this info out than sit on your --- and have some "unfortunate" turn of events happen that knocks these guys off the face of the planet (and the internet).
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:31 PM
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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Such nice work usually lacks explanation in simple words.
Am I undertanding correctly that the idea here is to efficiently break up the water using a katalyst, running a car on the Hydrogen combustion, AND generating sufficient electricity to do it all over again?
This would oppose the gas station variety where some form of compressed hydrogen is tanked. It would just tank water and do all the splitting itself.
Hope I am guessing this right

By offering in-detail info only, the masses are not oing to understand the big picture. Cool, so you're splitting hydrogen, big deal, we did that at school.

Sorry if this came across too negatively. I've determinded that reading up on FE option is a 500% efficient time burning exersize.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:05 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Yes, that's exactly right - the car runs on hydroxy gas (HHO) generated from water alone to power the car.

You might wonder if this really could be the case that with not much more than 5LPM HHO we can run a vehicle. Let me remind you that FEMA (yes FEMA) put out a detailed document on how to convert internal combustion engines to run on WOOD!

Just imagine with wood chips and a small fire underneath to coax the woodchips into releasing burnable gas was running LARGE FACTORY Equipment!!

Here is the manual:
http://www.global-greenhouse-warming..._generator.pdf

Here is an overview of woodgas:
Wood gas generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NOW, a lot of people have been tinkering with HHO technology out there but for whatever reason people were consumed with being able to produce extremely large volumes of HHO thinking you need 100 LPM to run a vehicle.

YOU DON'T!!! You only need a small amount, just like with the woodgas.

The bottom line is you just need a small HHO cell (which you can easily construct) a propane conversion kit for the carb, change timing to TDC and add a vaccuum regulator, 1 more alternator and 1 more battery and IT'S DONE!!!! THE CAR WILL BE RUNNING ON WATER ALONE!!
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:52 PM
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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Thank you for your confirmation and elaboration.

Seems that when you want to run solely on water, even using splitting catalysts, you'll be propelling the car at best on the positive efficiency difference between the input (splitter) and output (ordinary combustion engine). And let's not forget generator efficiency in providing electricity running the splitter. Quite a few big efficiency losses there, but if the catalyst improves splitting capacity by like factor 2 or 3, I can surely see the car tanking just clean water.

These hydrogen litres per minute, I suppose, are at ambient pressure? Can't be hard to calculate it's combustion power potential per litre and eventually per second, to multiply with engine efficiency to obtain a kW figure. Then the energy requirement for the splitter would need to be deducted. A larger reservoir (bomb waiting to happen) of hydrogen might allow for short bursts of output power to accomodate car performance when a petrol head in a Porsche lines up with you at the red light.

Can a regular engine at all deal with pure hydrogen operation, however economically dosed compared to regular petrol?
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:42 PM
dynoc dynoc is offline
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Hy ShamanSaid,

well, you said that we need only few lpm to run car on hho gas?!
I saw in your video, at idle regime, that engine require 4.5-5 lpm.
Did you try under load!?

-D-
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Old 06-27-2009, 04:54 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
Thank you for your confirmation and elaboration.

Seems that when you want to run solely on water, even using splitting catalysts, you'll be propelling the car at best on the positive efficiency difference between the input (splitter) and output (ordinary combustion engine). And let's not forget generator efficiency in providing electricity running the splitter. Quite a few big efficiency losses there, but if the catalyst improves splitting capacity by like factor 2 or 3, I can surely see the car tanking just clean water.
You need about 2000 watts or so (without surpassing Faraday calc's) for the hydroxy generation which is easy just by adding an additional alternator and battery this should consume approx. 3hp from the engine no big hit (maybe forward the idle slightly if at all).

Note this is not pure hydrogen but hydroxy which is reported to be 6x more powerful than the gas of gasoline and it is more powerful than hydrogen alone. So we don't need much, just like with the wood gasifier I posted, you can see a large engine can run from the fumes of the wood chips, so it's no stretch to see we can easily accomplish this by extracting pure combustible hydroxy from plain water.

The best systems, utilize 316L (or 317L) Stainless steel w/KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) as the electrolyte which is not consumed in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
These hydrogen litres per minute, I suppose, are at ambient pressure? Can't be hard to calculate it's combustion power potential per litre and eventually per second, to multiply with engine efficiency to obtain a kW figure. Then the energy requirement for the splitter would need to be deducted. A larger reservoir (bomb waiting to happen) of hydrogen might allow for short bursts of output power to accomodate car performance when a petrol head in a Porsche lines up with you at the red light.
Yes, it's been calculated many times but nobody is doing it correct so we'll have to trial and error it a bit. The problem is we are dealing with a more powerful gas so it's hard to say you need the same quantity in the cylinder for the spark / compression it appears you don't. According to the video he also has removed completely the air intake so it is only pure HHO.

I have recommended to him one addition to add a dessicant chamber to dry the gas after the bubbler and prior to entry which should make it burn even easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
Can a regular engine at all deal with pure hydrogen operation, however economically dosed compared to regular petrol?
Yes it can, but again we are talking HYDROXY and basically you just need to convert your car to run on propane using the existing kits online with elimination of the air intake.

Here are some kits, including an interesting one I found just now that allows for a highly controlled propane gas injection that is very tunable. I think this should work for HHO no problem:

Propane power kits, propane conversion, small engine propane conversion kits, auto propane conversions - Welcome to Powered By Propane!

Here are some kits to change small electric generators to propane, but should work just fine to convert to HHO (also note they permanently hook up a tachometer to get the timing correct and ensure efficient operation):

Change over any Tecumseh engine to run on propane or natural gas.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:02 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynoc View Post
Hy ShamanSaid,
well, you said that we need only few lpm to run car on hho gas?!
I saw in your video, at idle regime, that engine require 4.5-5 lpm.
Did you try under load!?
-D-
Hi, I did not do these videos nor do I personally know or work with these guys but I found the information and it's spot on from the research I've done (a lot of research).

From the videos they are at the point that they have the system working to idle the Geo utilizing another vehicles alternator running next to it. They need to install a second alternator and battery to perfect the system. The second battery can pull the load to generate enough HHO to start the vehicle from the first battery. After that it should largely self regulate, as you accelerate the RPMS go up along with the power generated but they are talking about perhaps some PWM or other stuff to make it a bit more smooth.

The bottom line though is this works, I'm converting some electric generators to start and will move to vehicles after.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:24 PM
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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Thanks some more!

A quick search learned me that hydrogy translates to (my) Dutch as "knalgas" (bang gas) which I did remember. I of course observed hydroxy bangs in school classes, but remembered it to be less powerful than H and O2 seperately. Beats me why, if indeed more powerful, the Hoffmann aparatus would be used to first separate the H and O2 before burning the one rushed by the other.

So how much more easy is a catalyzed water to be converted into hydroxy compared to plain water? I suppose as the catalyst us taken out, the energy BACK is that released by hydroxy being turned into water.
A significant difference from the catalyst, and some efficient processes, and we've got a self runner.

If it would cost 3 horsepower to run this splitter, I wonder what the engine does with this hydrogy low. Less than 10hp and I fear we're pushing it to do more than idle the engine.

Quick calc, with the climate in my country, and a good rainwater collection system on the car's bodywork, would nett me hardly ever opening fuel cap. 7M2 surface for a car, getting most of its rain when outside at night, 80cm worth each year. 5.5 tons of fuel. As long as I don't drive too much between rain showers, it's lazy cruising!

I like the idea to self-brew rather than tank BP hydrogen. Having so much of it on board scares me.
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Old 06-27-2009, 06:03 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
A quick search learned me that hydrogy translates to (my) Dutch as "knalgas" (bang gas) which I did remember. I of course observed hydroxy bangs in school classes, but remembered it to be less powerful than H and O2 seperately. Beats me why, if indeed more powerful, the Hoffmann aparatus would be used to first separate the H and O2 before burning the one rushed by the other.
For the gas to explode the Oxygen is needed, when you break the water you get 2 parts Oxygen to 1 part Hydrogen that's why Hydroxy is more powerful than Hydrogen alone. When you put the hydrogen in normal air you get a lot of nitrogen and other stuff but only around 20% Oxygen in the Hydroxy we have around 66% Oxygen.

You can use a Hoffman to take them separately off the electrodes but it's not necessary for combusting we leave it together. But if you did split it off with a Hoffman (or you can pass it through an electromagnetic splitter too) then you can pump some oxygen into your passenger compartment while you fill up your blimp with the hydrogen. =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
So how much more easy is a catalyzed water to be converted into hydroxy compared to plain water? I suppose as the catalyst us taken out, the energy BACK is that released by hydroxy being turned into water.
It seems you are thinking of chemical processes, this method has no consumed catalyst there is only the electricity and an electrolyte that does not get consumed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
If it would cost 3 horsepower to run this splitter, I wonder what the engine does with this hydrogy low. Less than 10hp and I fear we're pushing it to do more than idle the engine.
It's on-demand system so when going slow there is not much need for Hydroxy so the system needn't draw much power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
Quick calc, with the climate in my country, and a good rainwater collection system on the car's bodywork, would nett me hardly ever opening fuel cap. 7M2 surface for a car, getting most of its rain when outside at night, 80cm worth each year. 5.5 tons of fuel. As long as I don't drive too much between rain showers, it's lazy cruising!
I like the idea to self-brew rather than tank BP hydrogen. Having so much of it on board scares me.
Hehe, yea you could put a rain catchment or perhaps take something the windshield (and/or wipers) to collect into a water basin.. =)

You're right stored Hydrogen is bulky, expensive and somewhat dangerous, much better to generate it on the fly.
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Old 06-27-2009, 07:02 PM
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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>It seems you are thinking of chemical processes, this method has no
>consumed catalyst there is only the electricity and an electrolyte that does
>not get consumed.
I realize this.
My question is, whether the energy IN to product hydroxy (thanks to the non-used up catalyst) is really significantly greater than energy produced when combusting the hydroxy.
Else, secundary or even primary other energy inputs are required to power the splitter, and the car doesn't solely run on water.

Hydroxy is nice to have on-demand, but what does it cost, and what punch does it pack? How many HP do we get from this 5 litres per minutes? We'll subtract 3 for the splitter and have a figure to work with for the useful engine power.
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:38 PM
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wpage wpage is offline
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DD is scetchy at best

Daniel Dingle has a somewhat unreliable record. Since there is a mention of gas other than HHO gas as fuel here I am skeptical at best of this being reliable information...
There is however hope to the value of both natural gas and propane gas in connection with Hydrogen fuel as a good mix for alternates to oil
This is part of the solution to our current energy problem
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:27 AM
redeagle redeagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpage View Post
Daniel Dingle has a somewhat unreliable record. Since there is a mention of gas other than HHO gas as fuel here I am skeptical at best of this being reliable information...
There is however hope to the value of both natural gas and propane gas in connection with Hydrogen fuel as a good mix for alternates to oil
This is part of the solution to our current energy problem
Both propane and natural gas are fossil fuels. the only benefit you get from them is a cleaner combustion. We do not have an energy problem we have a political problem. Our government here in the US is buying stock in GM. Then here comes a cash for clunkers deal. Next is emissions testing in all 50 states. Cleans does not mean sustainable. There is a company out there working on a trash to liquid fuel processor. It produces a hydrogen rich gas that can be chemically converted to any hydrocarbon based fuel.
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:48 AM
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not really "Stan Meyer - style"

Hi Shamansaid.
I can appreciate the work done here, and admittedly have not watched every video, only the first one. Believe me i am not out to discredit this work. However, i have a very genuine feeling that Stan Meyer is rolling over in his grave to have his namesake attached to the process by which HHO is being created in the first video at least.
I believe that Stan Meyer utilized a cool negative ion potential charge to generate his hydroxy gas through the use of bifilar chokes, in the lab, and a very different apparatus that fracturized water to HHO gas very near to the point of implosion in the cylindar of the motor of his vehicle models.
In either case he did not need high levels of current input. I'm talking about .5 amps at 24 volts. 12 watts of input. He would do this generating ZERO temperature gain in the water similarly to how radiant energy is used to apply a potential charge to a battery with no heat being generated between the cathode and electrode of the battery. In a battery negative ions will cause sulfation to fall off of the plates inside. When powering an HHO cell (when switching between positive and negative ion input) you will no longer see the brown build up that is idicative of high levels of current with positive ions beating upon the plates of the electrolizer. I equate the brown build up in a electrolizer to the sulfation in a battery.
My concern for this design is for its loss in efficiency with running time, as well as a cascading issue with regard to potential temperature increases inside the cell and cooling chamber. Long journeys might not be possible.
I hope i haven't spoken in error about the methods utilized in these videos, i have only observed the high level of current being used to make my observations.


Heres a video where Stan talks a bit about his process. ( poor bandwidth here might need to let preload and come back to watch)

Still nice video and an operational vehicle so cheers!

Last edited by thedude : 06-28-2009 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:49 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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No offense, but who really cares about what Stanley Meyer's opinion is?

Not me, I studied his techniques and I believe he was doing a jack of all trades master of none thing out trying novelize the expired patents to make $$$..

Same deal with Dingle, I only put these guys names on here because they are familiar to those looking to run their car on water. Once again, in case you didn't read this whole thread, I am not affiliated with advancedtecheng - I'm a researcher/inventor myself and I'm in the process of converting some electric generators to water.

If you want to fracture water at low amps you do it ultrasonically, you can buy the Mist Maker for like $30 at an aquarium shop. Very low amp and will mistify the water to a fog.

His tube chambers probably worked like crap (on the ultrasonic side) because of the low nickel amount in the steel, which is the only real magneto-constrictor in the mix of S/S. So he had a very lame ultrasonic action with his electrolysis. Later you see he moved to the water sparkplug, he did this most likely because he realize that you can't light the fog on fire, so he went to plasma arc but also there he now had ceramic element which is indeed a good magneto-constrictor so he thought he hit the jackpot.

If you are technical and want to do the water fracturing right, realize that water molecule is around ~2nm in size, to make it dance till it disappears you'll need high frequency (multi-frequencies) like Puharich and Meyers knew, read this: United States Patent: 2907648
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:11 AM
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thedude thedude is offline
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I simply was making a recommendation Shamansaid. I'm not telling you your wrong. I'm only saying that there is a better way if you would consider it.
Let me ask you a couple of questions then. Wouldn't you prefer that there be no heat generated in your electrolizer. Wouldn't you prefer to not have the color "brown" associated with the water inside of it? Wouldn't you rather use less than 10% of the current input illustrated in the first video of your post?
I've done the experiments both ways and have observed some obvious advantages that your missing out on. If your not interested that is totally fine as well.
Sorry if i seem condecending here as it is not my intent.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:59 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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I simply was making a recommendation Shamansaid. I'm not telling you your wrong. I'm only saying that there is a better way if you would consider it.
Let me ask you a couple of questions then. Wouldn't you prefer that there be no heat generated in your electrolizer. Wouldn't you prefer to not have the color "brown" associated with the water inside of it? Wouldn't you rather use less than 10% of the current input illustrated in the first video of your post?
I've done the experiments both ways and have observed some obvious advantages that your missing out on. If your not interested that is totally fine as well.
Sorry if i seem condecending here as it is not my intent.
a. As I said multi-times these aren't my videos.

b. There is no heat if you have your voltage/amperage correct nor sludge if you using KOH w/316L (or 317L) for your electrodes

c. I have not seen anyone make significant HHO w/low current.

If you can do it, that's great show me the videos and evidence.

This is how you get it done - most people are driving around with Megawatt generators under their hood so in my opinion sacrificing a couple of HP to generate the HHO is no big deal in return for free energy.
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:12 AM
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Shamansaid, it is not my intention to hyjack this thread and this is my last post here until i can show something more substantial and up to date.

I know these are not your videos. I'm only refering to the proceedure and input currents involved, nothing more specific than that. I'm actually quite impressed with the videos your referencing here, i am only hoping to bring to light that there are other methods of generating HHO available which operate with similar results to what Stan Meyer has shown, if nothing more.

I am in the process of setting up my new cell (already constructed - see photo) which is built using 5 - 12" x 12", 24 guage, 304 grade stainless steel plates stacked together utilizing a stacked plate - gasket design (originated by Jetjis here on these forums) whereby the gaskets and plates are pancaked together to form the actual body of the electrolizer.



Here is a video i made with an older, much more inefficient electrolizer that i'll reference as a form of proof of concept at this time as i have some mods to do to my new design before it is complete for a full test. I know that this video is less impressive than i would like to show you. In this video i am generating HHO gas at less than 1 amp at 12 volts. Albeit a small quantity in this video, i will suffice it to say that my new cell in combination with a much higher volume of radiant energy input (still less than 24 watts of input to run circuits) as well as specific frequency tuning, is producing much, much more HHO. I have added a varied array of radiant potential generating devices to the mix and admittedly I am still in a experimental stage with regard to a final circuit. I will say that my latest trial runs are problematic in that i am generating so much hho that i am having trouble in limiting the amount of water that is encapsulated in the bubbles which are now forcing their way threw my gas lines. I am now working on a separator to solve this issue.

Like Stanley Meyer this method involves absolutely no noticeable increase in cell temperature after more that 5 hours of continuous running, uses ordinary tap water with no electrolite or KOH whatsoever, creates no brown water.

:P This discussion has put the proverbial "fire under my ass" to get cracking on this project again and i will be updating very soon with more video and circuit building info.

Last edited by thedude : 06-29-2009 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:56 PM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Well, I wish you best of luck getting it going - I have seen many people spend a lot of time and effort trying that route but still with small quantities of HHO.

If I were doing that type of system I would concentrate on the patent I mentioned earlier regarding ultrasonic fuel atomization. The Mist Maker product is along the lines but the size is still too large, but I do wonder if the reason the Mist Maker and similar techniques forms quickly back to water droplets might be due to the lack of a polarized magnetic field that will move the Hydrogen to - and Oxgen to +, thus letting it coalesce. If you are making fog or your gas is not burning be sure to put a good dessicant chamber after the bubbler (I'm using Sorbead Chameleon).

I'm not going Ultrasonic / Low current way because I think we can get water fuel going without the burden, but if you make progess and can show a production of 2-5LPM with low current I'd be happy to change directions.

Godspeed, I hope to hear back that you've had success.
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:38 PM
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I will say that my latest trial runs are problematic in that i am generating so much hho that i am having trouble in limiting the amount of water that is encapsulated in the bubbles which are now forcing their way threw my gas lines. I am now working on a separator to solve this issue.
Try making a closed loop of water from the cell to the bubbler. Three fittings on the bubbler. One output from cell to bottom of bubbler, one return of water only from just below the sustained water level at bubbler to input of cell with a one way check valve...(might even put a 12VDC circulating pump in this water return line to help move fluid through the cell, helps remove the gas bubbles to the bubbler) and of course a long narrow vertical section for the gas output. Use the bubbler as the spare water reservoir with the water level sensors. Could even put a inline filter after the circulating pump (water only). And if you configure the plates in your cell with the passages staggered so the water zigzags thru the cell from top to bottom to top to bottom...then out, the results will probably be better than if you have all the openings lined up at the top... this will help remove any impurities from the cell (the circulating water) off to the filter... simply use a cheap replaceable inline filter like the paper gas filter on VW bugs (maybe)

its all about increasing knowledge thru collaboration...two minds are better than one...
Isnt that what the internet forums are REALLY FOR?
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:08 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Yea you're right, that's why I'm here is to share info.

As for the problem of water in the gas it's a real problem. It lowers the potency dramatically, the big companies are using dessicant so I'm following suit:

E.g. http://www.srigc.com/H25O.pdf

Seems they are using plain silica gel there, but I researched it a bit and came up with Sorbead Chameleon which is similar to Sorbead R except will give you color indicating when saturated to 6% (keeps absorbing past that but color change completes around there).

http://www.catalysts.basf.com/Main/d...CHAM_Datasheet

I'm working on trying to get 2 stroke engines running on HHO, the oil additive is the problem there. If only they didn't supress the Bourke 1 stroke engine we'd be set right now but we've 4 stroke w/waste spark or more efficient 2 stroke sans the lubricant.

I'm thinking after I dry it out after the water bubbler through the dessicant chamber, if I put it through an oil bubbler it will become lubricated enough (or else I may have to mistify the oil in a Mist Maker type chamber and blend the gas). The color indicator on Sorbead Cham can tell how saturated your gas is, I'll be running the tests and share the results with any who are interested. Unfortunately my Sorbead package is taking a tour of the nation at the moment ("routing problems") but as soon as it gets here I'll get it going.

If anyone out there has any experience trying to deal with 2 stroke engines on HHO or figuring out how much water saturation there really is in the HHO gas with and without a water bubbler I'd really be interested to hear from them.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:58 PM
wantfreeenergy wantfreeenergy is offline
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Could you do this on the cheap? IE Home depot, lowes. I don't know what a vacuum regulator does exactly. I'm assuming it regulates pressure, at least in this example. To me it seems that it is allowing the pressure of the HHO gas to build up in it while the car only uses what it needs? Does the pressure regulator get connected to the throttle to adjust gas flow as the car changes its work load, or is it at a constant flow rate?

I guess I need these questions to be known first. Gonna do some research.

But the reason I bring it up is because I was imagining with my tird eye how you could use a small engine and cover the carbuerator with a metal plate that has a small hole in it to connect to the pressure regulator. And if the pressure regulator is something simple, could we just build it from pvc. On one end in comes the hho gas unrestricted into the 4"x8" pvc tube("pressure regulator"), and on the other end that goes to the carbuerator you could have a on/off valve which you could close and then open just enough to give the engine what it needs.

I would prefer to use a car engine and a propane conversion kit and try it. Yet these resources I have not.

And maybe I still need to learn about hho production, but I swear I've seen peoples boosters from pdf. files("THANK YOU Ash and ALL tinkerers and contributers"), that could produce 5 lpm using 12v and 17a.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:39 PM
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Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is offline
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you do not need to dry it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShamanSaid View Post
Yea you're right, that's why I'm here is to share info.

As for the problem of water in the gas it's a real problem. It lowers the potency dramatically, the big companies are using dessicant so I'm following suit:

E.g. http://www.srigc.com/H25O.pdf

Seems they are using plain silica gel there, but I researched it a bit and came up with Sorbead Chameleon which is similar to Sorbead R except will give you color indicating when saturated to 6% (keeps absorbing past that but color change completes around there).

http://www.catalysts.basf.com/Main/d...CHAM_Datasheet

I'm working on trying to get 2 stroke engines running on HHO, the oil additive is the problem there. If only they didn't supress the Bourke 1 stroke engine we'd be set right now but we've 4 stroke w/waste spark or more efficient 2 stroke sans the lubricant.

I'm thinking after I dry it out after the water bubbler through the dessicant chamber, if I put it through an oil bubbler it will become lubricated enough (or else I may have to mistify the oil in a Mist Maker type chamber and blend the gas). The color indicator on Sorbead Cham can tell how saturated your gas is, I'll be running the tests and share the results with any who are interested. Unfortunately my Sorbead package is taking a tour of the nation at the moment ("routing problems") but as soon as it gets here I'll get it going.

If anyone out there has any experience trying to deal with 2 stroke engines on HHO or figuring out how much water saturation there really is in the HHO gas with and without a water bubbler I'd really be interested to hear from them.
You do not need to dry it as it will produce water when it burns, but you will have to inject a lubricant.

2T and the shortest stroke possible, even better is no valves, adapt the engine so it is like a glow engine

Mike
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:49 PM
Michael John Nunnerley's Avatar
Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is offline
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will never run a normal engine only on HHO and gain pwer

Just a point so as you do not waste your money. You have to build or adapt an engine to run on low ltrs of gas. I meen LOW LTRS about 4ltrs should do it on a very short stroke and high revs, two stroke with oil sump, turbo charger and a good electronic timing ignition system, about 15-25cc only but power enough to run a generator.

Mike
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:14 PM
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wpage wpage is offline
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All things are possible with patience...

Findings indicate that internal combustion engines in general show a 10 to 20% gain with introduction of HHO gas. The caveat here is there is a high level of maintenance involved in HHO systems in terms of monitoring and maintaining levels of fluids and corresponding amp and heat levels associated with durations of operations...

Introduction of other alternate systems such as natural gas or propane or electric adds to the mix of things a vehicle needs to master. Optimal overall performance of these complex systems in addition to the conventional fuel systems which are required to keep vehicle performance at a certain level of reliability.

All of this poses the question of how much is a typical person willing to devote of his quality of life to tinkering in this process of energy solutions.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:00 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantfreeenergy View Post
Could you do this on the cheap? IE Home depot, lowes. I don't know what a vacuum regulator does exactly. I'm assuming it regulates pressure, at least in this example. To me it seems that it is allowing the pressure of the HHO gas to build up in it while the car only uses what it needs? Does the pressure regulator get connected to the throttle to adjust gas flow as the car changes its work load, or is it at a constant flow rate?

I guess I need these questions to be known first. Gonna do some research.

But the reason I bring it up is because I was imagining with my tird eye how you could use a small engine and cover the carbuerator with a metal plate that has a small hole in it to connect to the pressure regulator. And if the pressure regulator is something simple, could we just build it from pvc. On one end in comes the hho gas unrestricted into the 4"x8" pvc tube("pressure regulator"), and on the other end that goes to the carbuerator you could have a on/off valve which you could close and then open just enough to give the engine what it needs.

I would prefer to use a car engine and a propane conversion kit and try it. Yet these resources I have not.

And maybe I still need to learn about hho production, but I swear I've seen peoples boosters from pdf. files("THANK YOU Ash and ALL tinkerers and contributers"), that could produce 5 lpm using 12v and 17a.
Yes, you got the idea you want to build up the pressure a bit (perhaps around 20 or 30 psi) and utilize the vaccuum regulator and propane carb to administer the gas which can be adjusted to whatever LPM is necessary. Just make sure to look for low-pressure versions of the carb and regulator, the high-pressure stuff is for when you are hooked up to a huge propane tank.

I'm working on converting 2-stroke electric generators right now so I'm not dealing with throttle at the moment but if you have enough pressure it should be no problem to throttle by using the propane carb which is already designed for it.

I'm using mostly off-the-shelf stuff you can find in Lowe's or Home Depot. For the chamber, I'm using PVC I got at Home Depot and for hoses, tube fittings, gasket material (neoprene and teflon) and 316L bolts and nylon nuts/washers type stuff I got my stuff from SmallParts.com: The Hardware Store for Researchers and Developers.

For power supply I've a variable voltage / amp Mastech 3050E Mastech Power Supply but I plan on tweaking it Boyce series-cell style to run 12V utilizing neutrals to step the voltage down to 2 volt per plate in the end.

Right now I'm working on modifying the bolt-spacing on an IMPCO 55 propane carb to modify it to fit my little ETQ TG1200 generator (from 2.38" to around 1.5").

You can find most of the information and most parts you need regarding propane conversions at this website: IMPCO Parts

there are others, just google "propane carb", or "propane conversion kit"

Along with some inexpensive older stuff (good nonetheless) here: https://www.altfuel.com/new_old_stock.htm

Also I recommend you go to the IMPCO website and download their catalog for detailed descriptions and diagrams especially if you plan on modifying an engine that isn't officially tested on the various websites to be compatible.
Impco Catalogs

This is a decent tutorial on converting to propane:
Converting a motor to run on Propane!

Another interesting idea for controlling the gas flow to the air intake manifold is to eliminate the carb altogether and go with an adjustable sonic choke, here is an article on it: Hydrogen Flow Rate Control

Granted the guy that wrote is trying to sell his valves, but you may be able to effect something similar with a gas pipe "reducer" something like 5/16 to 1/8 and some modifying.

Despite what a poster above stated, drying the gas is very important - I just found out Boyce utilizes a dessicant chamber to dry his gas out and if you look at the link I provided earlier for the SRI generator they use a dessicant chamber and in that manual it states that if you have trouble lighting your gas it may be that your dessicant is saturated and hence gas is saturated with moisture. It's true that it will turn to water after it burns but before then we want it dry.

I found the Sorbead Orange (Chameleon) I'm using here: Delta Adsorbents

(it just got here today and I promptly tested it out and it works great)

I thought about this 2 stroke oil lubricant problem and I'm thinking a few solutions, as you mention you could try an oil injector which may be the simplest off-the-shelf solution for now. But I was thinking perhaps if we coat the cylinder with a teflon coating and change our piston to teflon or something simmilar perhaps Rulon or another good high temp low friction type material we may not need it at least for the cylinder. The crankcase will still have to be dealt with. But another idea is a Mist Maker and mix the HHO with the oil mist or simply an oil bubbler, I've found several patents related to gas additives by way of a bubbler. The only thing is most of the time they wish to heat the fuel that's bubbled to boiling or near boiling which is unattractive to me.

We'll see, I'll cross that road when I get there, for now I just got most of my parts, I still need to finish building the cell and test it. I'm hoping to run this tiny 2 stroke on 3 LPM or less, under pressure of around 20 PSI, using a low pressure vaccuum regulator and an IMPCO 55 carb. We really don't need to lean out the HHO much (still wondering if perhaps should just go straight into intake manifold with the HHO sans the carb altogether, we'll see I'll test both).

Last edited by ShamanSaid : 07-02-2009 at 06:42 PM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2009, 07:44 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Just a point so as you do not waste your money. You have to build or adapt an engine to run on low ltrs of gas. I meen LOW LTRS about 4ltrs should do it on a very short stroke and high revs, two stroke with oil sump, turbo charger and a good electronic timing ignition system, about 15-25cc only but power enough to run a generator.

Mike
The 2 stroke should run off few LPM as it is, they are much more efficient than 4 stroke engines and we don't worry about waste spark. If you would mess with the stroke distance you will proportionately reduce the power of the engine and hence the power generating capacity thereof.

The Bourke engine is the most efficient design, no need to re-invent it only to build it, but I'm not tying myself with that project until after this two-stroke on HHO is perfected. =)
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:12 AM
ShamanSaid ShamanSaid is offline
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Hehe.. well, it's the 4th of July and so I dug out one of my old little test cells to try some new electrode shapes out - got bored and decided to fill some bottles up with HHO to have some fun..

Accidently let the tube pop out of the bubble bath while having a lit lighter in my hand and hehe.. *KABOOM*

Good thing those mason jars are designed to blow their tops off first, it took the threaded part along with the cables clean off the Mastech right to the ceiling. But no broken glass. =)

Anyhow, that got me interested in some more safety and found this document on dealing with HHO (technically for Hydrogen but as we all know that's basically harmless without the Oxygen): http://www.hysafe.org/download/1710/...ersion_1.1.pdf
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