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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #1051  
Old 08-28-2009, 08:36 PM
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Oneminde Oneminde is offline
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@HMS-776

You are right - this was what i was talking about in my description of EM fields in the WFC - the principle is the same, the only differance is the conditions for the result.

Thanks for a good post!

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  #1052  
Old 08-29-2009, 07:17 AM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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Sorry about that, not trying to cause probs...

Just trying to share with everyone what I have learned. Like you said there's more than one way of doing this. My goal is to build everything as close to Meyer as possible to understand the work, whereas you can understand it better by doing it your own way. Both will work. We just have different ways of thinking.

So back to the Driving Circuits. I will explain this from the beginning so hopefully everyone can have a better understanding.



Lets start from the beginning. The above diagram comes directly from Stan Meyers Tech Brief page 3-28. It is the block diagram for the ECU.

THE LASER ACCELERATOR

On the top you see the Laser accelerator. The laser accelerator is an optical distributor which uses light to cause a pulsed output.

Examples:

Optically triggered electronic ... - Google Patent Search

Hydrogen Powered Commodore

(See fig 3)

The pulsed output created by the optical distributor goes to a chip which converts frequency to voltage, and as the frequency varies, so does the voltage. This voltage signal, as shown in the diagram splits 4 ways and goes to circuits which are called summing circuits.

The Air Pressure Sensor, RPM monitor, and Engine Temperature sensor also create a variable voltage signal which goes to a summing circuit.

The summing circuits are basically that, summing circuits, the output voltage is the sum of the input voltage(s). Summing circuits are made using OP Amp chips like the LM741, for example.

Each summing circuit has it's own trim pot at it's output, which is used as a voltage divider. This makes engine adjustments as simple as adjusting a knob.

Quote:
As Stan states in his patent # 5,293,857

Paragraph 6

"Idling, low temperature operation adjustments or other calibration adjustments for normal or ambient conditions are made by trim pots..."
If you know something about electronics you can see how this is going together, how simple it is, it's all analog (variable DC voltage), which in itself is extremly simple.

Many people probably thought Stan was a genious, but in fact during the
70s, 80s, and early 90s most cars had analog voltage systems. Meyers merely studied and copied them. Nothing new, nothing hard!

The output voltage from the summing circuits is applied to FET's. The applied continusously variable voltage controls the amount of current which flows through the differential solenoids thus controlling the flow of the gas(es) flowing through them and into the mixing chamber, which then enters the engine through a vacuum line.



The line going to the air cleaner is actutallt the Idle Air bypass line. THe mixing chamber line is under the throttle plate.

Quote:
Stan had three differential solenoid control valves mounted on a panel.One was for the exhaust recirculation,the second was for the processed air,and the third one went to the air cleaner.The air cleaner air would have been used for the idle air control like all EFI cars use today.It would control the idle speed.No water was put through any of these valves.
All of theses valves are pictured in the memo for the injector system,423 I think. -Dynodon
The summing circuit which controls the Gas Processor solenoid also controls the EEC. The analog voltage from the summing circuit is also the voltage applied to the EEC. Some changes can be made, Personally I would add a voltage divider (pot) to further adjust the applied EEC voltage and start at the lowest voltage possible. When dealing with the amount of energy possible, you should always start low and work your way up.

Keep in mind Coloumbs law, as Stan taked about in his NZ vid and the EEC circuit. If you apply 1 volt you'll get 1 amp of current flow....Use the proper bulbs, and start at a low voltage!



Here's a quick circuit I just whipped up. Of course all the Resistors and things aren't there, but those parts are simple and any electronics forum or book can help you there. I'm just trying to give an example for now. Also you'll notice that the drawing closely resembles Meyer's in his patent # 4,836,581. Figure 11 in that patent is pretty good. If the Ground is an isolated ground simple connect the negative to the GP negative electrode.



In the diagram above you should notice 2 things, First that the applied Volatge to the EEC is a low voltage. And Second that the frequency generator has a pot, meaning it is a VCO (voltage controlled Oscillator).

Now one thing people may not understand, is how the EEC makes a complete circuit. And the way it does is the chamber in the Gas Processor has an area containing an excess number of free electrons (ionized from the Oxygen atoms), it is the free electrons that form the negative (ground) and complete the circuit. It is what I call, an invisible ground.

Back to the Laser Distributor, if you studied the example I gave an understand how it works, you should understand that the Laser distributor can also be used to control Injector timing, which I believ Stan did. The pulses can be used to turn on and off the injectors to each cylinder very easily. These types of distributors allready exist. One thing you want to keep in mind though, is that the injector duty cycle needs to be able to change as well, which creates the need for using the throttle, RPM, and Air Pressure sensor.

The VIC as I have stated many times is meant to produce a continuous voltage. The voltage is applied to the conventional part of the distributor which applies it to the injectors.

It's hard to just describe one part of the system which needs the entire system to function. If you want to control the GP, you've got to make it work with the entire system at various engine loads, RPM, and temperatures! And being that every system is different I cannot explain it all.

Some great References for more understanding. They are expensive so I just check them out at the library.

Understanding Automotive Electronics is a great book, with several editions. The earlier editions are more based on Analog circuits which is what we need to understand here. There are also many books on electronics and analog circuits!

If you build the Gas Processor, you do so at your own risk! You must understand the energy available with such a reaction!

Hope everyone Enjoyed the post!
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Last edited by HMS-776; 08-29-2009 at 08:59 PM.
  #1053  
Old 08-29-2009, 04:51 PM
h20power h20power is offline
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Thanks HMS-776,

For you are very correct in that there is more than one way to do this, that is why I wont knock anyones designs. Here I just wanted to focuse on the water fuel injection system, but the gas injection system will also work. It has more parts than the water injection system and is of Meyer earlyer design. Perhaps someone should start a thread for Stanley Meyer's Gas Injections system for not all cars will be able to accept the water injection system easily. I would like it if you would start a thread on the Gaseous injection system, that way I can come to your thread and help as much as I can on that front too. Both of us have a good working knowlegde of how Stanley Meyer did what he did so I think it would be a great idea, what do you think?

For I found this great site for hydrogen systems that would take a lot of the work out of creating a gaseous injection system here: Alternative Fuel CNG Engine Conversion LPG Hydrogen Erdgas Now in these systems you will have to make the WFC as the source of the fuel for the injectors as well as the quenching tubes to take the combustable gas to the injectors or fuel rail. But it is very possible and most of the control systems have already been made for such a system. So basically all one would need is the WFC set up to maintain a given pressure to opperate the system, and the same means to control the gas processor as can be found here or adapted to fit their system.

The main reason for a new thread is this one is for the water injection system only for the most part. And as I have just shown you the Gaseous injection system has help from the site I posted. They sell Gaseous Hydrogen injectors and the means to control them with cpu's already made. On that system now would be easyer for not a lot would have to be made and the circuits might be adaptable to the WFC and Gas Processor. Just thinking out loud here, for I think you have something that we can all follow to energy independence, yet another way, or do you want me to start it? Anyway it is best not to put the two different systems in one thread as it will more than likely confuse people.


h2opower.
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  #1054  
Old 08-29-2009, 07:24 PM
h20power h20power is offline
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Hi Everyone,

This is to let everyone know that I have put, sebosfato, tutanka, and Oneminde on the ignor list and sujest everyone else do the same for if you do not it will read funny as I will not be responding to them on this thread.

sebosfato and tutanka have far too different ideas for this thread to handle and Oneminde is a instigator one that tries as start fights when he see's different thoughts come out. The reason I tell everyone this is people have a right to know why I did what I did. For if I didn't the thread would never move forwards the way I intended it to move, thus Stanley Meyer's technology would never come out. Again the goal of this thread is to replicate Stanley Meyer's injection system and also come to a full understanding of the science behind the invention. I hope everyone understands the decisions made here.


h2opower.
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  #1055  
Old 08-29-2009, 08:30 PM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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I guess it seems like I am talking about the gaseuos system, but I am not. I am only working on Meyers End product, anything else would be a waste of time.

In Meyers End product, there are 2 systems. The Gas System and the water system. This has been confirmed after talking with Dynodon, who has seen the car personally several times. I have even asked him to look for certain things for me for clarification which he has done helped a great deal.

In Meyers end product, the only thing that flows through the injectors is the heated water. The Recirculated exhaust, Ioinized air, and ambient air are all part of the gaseous system which enter the engine using engine vacuum.
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  #1056  
Old 08-29-2009, 09:28 PM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h20power View Post
Hi Everyone,

This is to let everyone know that I have put, sebosfato, tutanka, and Oneminde on the ignor list and sujest everyone else do the same for if you do not it will read funny as I will not be responding to them on this thread.

sebosfato and tutanka have far too different ideas for this thread to handle and Oneminde is a instigator one that tries as start fights when he see's different thoughts come out. The reason I tell everyone this is people have a right to know why I did what I did. For if I didn't the thread would never move forwards the way I intended it to move, thus Stanley Meyer's technology would never come out. Again the goal of this thread is to replicate Stanley Meyer's injection system and also come to a full understanding of the science behind the invention. I hope everyone understands the decisions made here.


h2opower.
Dear H2OPOWER,
You can ignore me , oneminde or sebosfato but you can't ignore that peoples have an mind. If you write this is clear that you are confused at this time.. not good idea answer these words.. At this time you don't hav anyting that work only more words and nothing else.H2opower you don't are an genious you copy only an genious..
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  #1057  
Old 08-29-2009, 09:50 PM
h20power h20power is offline
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Now the reason for heated water was already made clear as it has to do with the phase diagram of water. This is the science behind the technology.

Before the injectors the water is under pressure in Meyer's system 125 psi so over 100 degree C water will not boil before the injectors, but after the injector the pressure in the intake system is below atm typically -15 psi. So water injected into that vacuum pressure will imedeately turn into vapor at the same tempreture. This aids the voltage zones in that the water coming into them is already at a very small size, think of it as a head start to the charge and divid process of breaking water down as show here:


Again this is the science behind the technology so everyone has a clear understanding as to how it all works. Hot water at high pressure injected into a low pressure zone into a high pulsating voltage zone. The water is also undergoing evaperation which aids the process for the surface charge density will be shrinking allowing voltage to perform work on the water molecules. As long as the water droplets are in the voltage zone they will the process will keep going. Any hydrogen and oxygen gas created in the voltage zone is subject to being striped of electrons prior to entering the combustion chamber. I hope this makes it very clear how the water fuel injectors work and why the water is being heated prior to injecting it into the voltage zones of the injectors.


h2opower.
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  #1058  
Old 08-29-2009, 10:13 PM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h20power View Post
Now the reason for heated water was already made clear as it has to do with the phase diagram of water. This is the science behind the technology.

Before the injectors the water is under pressure in Meyer's system 125 psi so over 100 degree C water will not boil before the injectors, but after the injector the pressure in the intake system is below atm typically -15 psi. So water injected into that vacuum pressure will imedeately turn into vapor at the same tempreture. This aids the voltage zones in that the water coming into them is already at a very small size, think of it as a head start to the charge and divid process of breaking water down.

Again this is the science behind the technology so everyone has a clear understanding as to how it all works. Hot water at high pressure injected into a low pressure zone into a high pulsating voltage zone. The water is also undergoing evaperation which aids the process for the surface charge density will be shrinking allowing voltage to perform work on the water molecules. As long as the water droplets are in the voltage zone they will the process will keep going. Any hydrogen and oxygen gas created in the voltage zone is subject to being striped of electrons prior to entering the combustion chamber. I hope this makes it very clear how the water fuel injectors work and why the water is being heated prior to injecting it into the voltage zones of the injectors.


h2opower.
HI everyone,
Is clear that Meyer is illuminated for creation of injector from Peter Graneau experiments on longitudinal force in water.. Is mentioned on Electrodynamic Explosions in water that: Superheated steam has been suggested to drive a thermal explosion. Is an case?? I think not... you can read with your eyes here: Experiments
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Last edited by tutanka; 08-29-2009 at 10:16 PM.
  #1059  
Old 08-29-2009, 11:33 PM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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H2OPOWER,

I hope my explanation of the circuits above helped. They really are simple circuits. The problem is I have limited skills when designing and building them. I understand the basics of how they work but as far as building them I have not had much practice at it. That is why i cannot give any definite schematic and guarantee it will work. For now I can only show concepts of how the circuits could work. Hopefully that will change in the coming months!!!

It's hard to get things right the first time, and I don't want to be wasting people's time building circuits that do not work or are not reliable.

Once I feel I have the correct knowledge and am capable of building simple, reliable circuits I will gladly post them, everything included. Right now I just feel like I would be causing alot of troubleshooting work, and problems as my circuits design knowledge is not complete.
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Last edited by HMS-776; 08-29-2009 at 11:38 PM.
  #1060  
Old 08-30-2009, 12:29 AM
h20power h20power is offline
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Yes they helped HMS-776,
If you would can you draw the EEC and the LED driver on the nored side of the part where it says 'Switch' on the 4001 close to the primary coil and make it so the EEC and the LED driver has it's own FET? Thanks. And also add in figure 4 having the 'to primary coil TX1' hooked up to the spot where the 'IRFP450' is, for 'J' is where we would hook the engine control and management systems to in figure 4. For Q4 and Q5 are a Darlington transistor: Darlington transistor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and that should be the correct way to hook everything up.



We must work together for we are getting help from a lot of good like minded people, thanks HMS-776.


h2opower.
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Last edited by h20power; 08-30-2009 at 12:39 AM.
  #1061  
Old 08-30-2009, 04:55 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Why didn't you show it h2o?... if you know everything?
Is that the reason why do you want to create an ignorance list????????????
For those who don't ignore science http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eyer-true.html
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Last edited by sebosfato; 08-30-2009 at 05:16 AM.
  #1062  
Old 08-30-2009, 06:18 AM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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This is as good as I can do for now....I would recommend posting the Voltage Amplitude control circuit on the forums at allaboutcircuits.com, let them know the voltages your working with and the current flow through your primary and they will get you squared away pretty quick.

As far as that PLL circuit, a few people have claimed that it works. You can read the posts on the first testing of this circuit below, which I would highly recommed so you can have a better understanding and build it correctly:

The Water Fuel Cell :: View topic - Phase lock loop circuit schematic

The Water Fuel Cell :: View topic - Stans international circuit examination

Read the posts above and you will find some people with good knowledge on this circuit that will explain it much better than I could. Best of luck!
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  #1063  
Old 08-30-2009, 07:09 AM
h20power h20power is offline
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Thanks so much HMS-776,
As always I will keep you posted of any test I will run on the water for fuel program for there is safty in numbers.


h2opower.
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  #1064  
Old 08-30-2009, 10:38 PM
bussi04 bussi04 is offline
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circuit notification "ground"

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS-776 View Post
Sorry about that, not trying to cause probs...

...


Here's a quick circuit I just whipped up. Of course all the Resistors and things aren't there, but those parts are simple and any electronics forum or book can help you there. I'm just trying to give an example for now. Also you'll notice that the drawing closely resembles Meyer's in his patent # 4,836,581. Figure 11 in that patent is pretty good. If the Ground is an isolated ground simple connect the negative to the GP negative electrode.
...
Hope everyone Enjoyed the post!

...

Hi Hms-776,

for general notation clarification I want to suggest to use the term "ground" only when it means system overall ground (i.e. ICE metal case or grounded to earth).

So there is no more "isolated ground" - let´s call it 0V or zero level.

greetings,
bussi04
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  #1065  
Old 08-31-2009, 01:12 AM
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pmazz850 pmazz850 is offline
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Exactly which grounds need to be isolated again? They can't all be isolated, can they? I notice in the schematic HMS drew up for H2OPOWER, all the grounds are labeled 0v. Which need to be isolated?
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  #1066  
Old 08-31-2009, 05:01 AM
h20power h20power is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
Exactly which grounds need to be isolated again? They can't all be isolated, can they? I notice in the schematic HMS drew up for H2OPOWER, all the grounds are labeled 0v. Which need to be isolated?
The part that needs to be isolated is on the secondary side of the VIC transformer, there can be nothing going to ground in there. This goes for the shared connections more than anything with the EEC, like the WFC and injectors.

Now I am getting some help with the circuit and so far all the LM741's you can safely substitute with a LM1558 (or a 1458), which is a dual op amp for the 741. They have slightly better specs. A LM324 is a quad op amp (4 in a package). Plus I found this darlington transistor: http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/4132.pdf http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TIP140-D.PDF not sure if we can use it yet, but I am trying to learn as I go along.

Hope that helped some,

h2opower.
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Last edited by h20power; 08-31-2009 at 05:22 AM. Reason: change the part can't use a PNP type.
  #1067  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:43 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Check my last posts h20 on my thread you'll see i talk about how to make it self oscillating... I would advice you the opamp i'm using for the resonant scaning circuit is lf411.

Regards

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...er-true-3.html
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  #1068  
Old 08-31-2009, 02:52 PM
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Oneminde Oneminde is offline
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@sebosfato

He does not respond to us anymore... you can talk to the rest of the "group".
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  #1069  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:00 PM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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The isolated ground I was referring to is basically meaning that the negative of the high voltage transformer for the gas processor is connected to the outer electrode.

NOTE: That is only the case if your capacitor plates are not close enough to take advantage of the polarization effect that will create a negative charge all on it's own. The effect has many names, Stan calles it "electron clustering", it's also known as polarization, electrostatic induction, induced polarization charge, etc.

Electrostatic induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
When a charged object is brought near an uncharged, electrically conducting object, such as a piece of metal, the force of the nearby charge causes a separation of these charges. For example, if a positive charge is brought near the object ,the negative charges in the metal will be attracted toward it and move to the side of the object facing it, while the positive charges are repelled and move to the side of the object away from it. This results in a region of negative charge on the object nearest to the external charge, and a region of positive charge on the part away from it. If the external charge is negative, the polarity of the charged regions will be reversed.
I just want everyone reading these posts to understand how in all of Stan Meyers work the principle of splitting the water is the same. High volatges of opposite polarity! The only thing that has changed is the shape and size of the devices used.

Quote:
"electron clustering effect" produces a Negative Electrical Voltage Intensity in equal magnitude to the Positive Electrical Voltage Intensity
-Stan Meyer, Technical Brief page 8-3 (describing electrostatic induction creating a negative charge within the injectors, resulting in opposite charges which are used to split the water molecule)


Just remember it depends on the spacing, as to whether or not you can use the principle described above. If your capacitor gap is wide your result is a reduced capacitance which results in an increased resonant frequency, and greater changes in resonance, and the need to use a transformer which can supply both a positive and negative charge.

Everyone's design will be different, but as long as they work we have achieved our goal!!! Good luck to everyone on this forum!

H2OPOWER, if there's anything else I can do with the circuits, let me know....Hope you've read the posts on the PLL, they helped me understand how it works much better!!!
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Last edited by HMS-776; 08-31-2009 at 11:03 PM.
  #1070  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:25 PM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Onemind do you understand what i say? the picture i showed? I'm totally crazy? is incredible people decide to ignore what is write in the books about Townsend coefficients. Is exactly the same schematics that meyer showed about the production of the gases being increased exponentially under resonant action. He just said one thing and was another thing. He gave the tips one that have studied seriously high voltage books should understand his technology only looking at it. Because one that knows, knows he was changing the words to protect his technology. But looking at his drawings and knowing how resonance really works, and collision too one can do it. For example have you ever heard about Ravi he came up with the clue that the electrodes must have a coating of calcium oxide but why calcium oxide??? That he didn't said.... As many other things.... Calcium is a metal with very low working function. Look for what I'm talking about...

Visit my thread you're all welcome to learn a lot. No ignorance lists up there.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eyer-true.html
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  #1071  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:44 PM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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Now my question is:

Do we know yet, has anything been confirmed about the wavelength of the LED's used in the Gas Processor?

I have been wondering the following:

While reading thorough one of Stan Meyers patents he mentions the Gas Processor inducing resonance of the electrons.

Quote:
In a general outline of the method, a first gas mixture including at least a portion of hydrogen and oxygen gases is provided. The gas mixture is subjected to a pulsating, polar electric field whereby electrons of the gas atoms are distended in their orbital fields by reason of their subjection to electrical polar forces. The polar pulsating frequency applied is such that the pulsating electric field induces a resonance with respect to an electron of the gas atom. A cascade effect results and the energy level of specific resonating electron is increased in cascading, incremental steps.
-Stan Meyers Patent # 4,826,581, Paragraph 3

It really makes me wonder if this induced resonance has any effect on the wavelength that the atoms will absorb?

When we have an atom in a high voltage field we weaken the atom because we are reducing the speed at which the surrounding electrons flow around it. It really makes me wonder what effect this could have on the photon absorbtion wavelengths?
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  #1072  
Old 09-01-2009, 12:03 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS-776 View Post
Now my question is:

Do we know yet, has anything been confirmed about the wavelength of the LED's used in the Gas Processor?

I have been wondering the following:

While reading thorough one of Stan Meyers patents he mentions the Gas Processor inducing resonance of the electrons.




It really makes me wonder if this induced resonance has any effect on the wavelength that the atoms will absorb?

When we have an atom in a high voltage field we weaken the atom because we are reducing the speed at which the surrounding electrons flow around it. It really makes me wonder what effect this could have on the photon absorbtion wavelengths?
If you want to ionize a molecule in a high voltage field you need free electrons to collide with the ones you want to knock out, for this stanley meyer used the lasers to overcome the surface barrier of the electrodes as to allow them to emit free electrons that will fly from the cathode to the anode and being the molecules in the middle they collide with them liberating electrons and photons that will collide with another molecules liberating even more electrons this is the chain reaction meyer talk about."gas production grows up exponentially under resonant condition" On the anode the current will be much higher than cathode as free electrons will be absorbed by it due to the high voltage.
Wave-Particle Duality
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  #1073  
Old 09-01-2009, 01:28 AM
HMS-776 HMS-776 is offline
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Interesting...

I have wondered a lot lately about the role of the LED's in the Gas Processor. It is my belief that if the voltages are high enough to ionize the atoms then they must also excite the atoms....I think the LED's may have been used only to give the proper amount of energy to keep the atoms from releasing a photon and going back to a lower state, Or possibly what you mentioned above, although right now I need to do more research to fully understand it.

I recently talked to someone who is in the physics dept at nist.gov about the Gas processor, not mentioning what it was, only how I read it to work so as not to get a complete denial of such a device. My final answer was this:

Quote:
sorry, any practical source of radiation that will efficiently convert O to O4+.
That will be done more efficiently by plasma processes such as you mention below.

Modeling of such processes tends to be fairly complicated. I do not see a simple obvious
role for LEDs in enhancing such processes - only detailed modeling would reveal
opportunities. LEDs now operate only down to wavelengths above 200 nm, which are
insufficient to excite multiply-ionized oxygen atoms.

Thanks for your interest in the programs of the National Institute of Standards and
Technology.
Below is the email I sent-Above is the reply

Quote:
The reason why I asked you about the Oxygen atom is to understand the following:

I have recently learned of a device used to obtain hydrogen decay in an easy way, similar the Muon process.

Air is pumped through a high voltage ionization chamber which ionizes the Oxygen Atoms (up to 4 electrons) and at the same time laser energy (from LEDs) is used to excite the Oxygen atoms to an energy level high enough to ionize the hydrogen atom (>1312KJ/Mol I think).

The ionized, excited Oxygen is added to a mixture of hydrogen gas, and when the gas is ignited the excited Oxygen ionizes the only electron from the hydrogen atom, causing atomic decay of the hydrogen atom.

I have seen pictures of the device as well as a patent.

I wanted to ask you what you think about such a device. If it does work what wavelengths of LEDs would it use, and would the electric field change the needed wavelengths?

Again, I thank you very much for your time. I hope what I shared can also be of interest to you.
Seeing what he mentioned above. Makes me wonder if we need a certain V/cm and plate spacing to accomplish the task correctly...I think there may be a little more going on with the Gas Processor than previously believed...
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Last edited by HMS-776; 09-01-2009 at 04:28 AM.
  #1074  
Old 09-01-2009, 06:05 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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I'm not surprised he gave you this answer. To excite the oxygen molecule you would need x-rays. This proves that the visible light laser energy stanley was using was not to excite oxygen but the electrodes to free up electrons allowing them to collide. Yes the high voltage is important and is related to the spacing. Read this book to understand everything about collision could help you all.

take you own conclusions

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This is the book i mentioned
And follows 3 links you should check to understand what i'm saying.

Wave-Particle Duality

Work Functions for Photoelectric Effect

Photoelectric Effect

Visit http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eyer-true.html and you'll see the light
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Last edited by sebosfato; 09-01-2009 at 06:08 AM.
  #1075  
Old 09-01-2009, 06:28 AM
h20power h20power is offline
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Quote:
Quantum ionization
In quantum mechanics, ionization can still happen classically, whereby the electron has enough energy to make it over the potential barrier, but there is the additional possibility of tunnel ionization.


[edit] Tunnel ionization
Tunnel ionization is ionization due to quantum tunneling. In classical ionization, an electron must have enough energy to make it over the potential barrier, but quantum tunneling allows the electron simply to go through the potential barrier instead of going all the way over it because of the wave nature of the electron. The probability of an electron's tunneling through the barrier drops off exponentially with the width of the potential barrier. Therefore, an electron with a higher energy can make it further up the potential barrier, leaving a much thinner barrier to tunnel through and, thus, a greater chance to do so.


[edit] Non-sequential ionization
When the fact that the electric field of light is an alternating electric field is combined with tunnel ionization, the phenomenon of non-sequential ionization emerges. An electron that tunnels out from an atom or molecule may be sent right back in by the alternating field, at which point it can either recombine with the atom or molecule and release any excess energy or have the chance to further ionize the atom or molecule through high-energy collisions. This additional ionization is referred to as non-sequential ionization for two reasons: One, there is no order to how the second electron is removed, and, two, an atom or molecule with a +2 charge can be created straight from an atom or molecule with a neutral charge, so the integer charges are not sequential. Non-sequential ionization is often studied at lower laser-field intensities, since most ionization events are sequential when the ionization rate is high.


[edit] See also
Does this sound like what we are doing? Now re-look at the video of a gas processor without the LEDs in action: YouTube - Lec 10 | MIT 6.013 Electromagnetics and Applications, Fall 2
and to see the relaxation time of water and the maximum image charge voltage it will take before spliting into smaller droplets: YouTube - Lec 9 | MIT 6.013 Electromagnetics and Applications, Fall 20

Quote:
Photoionisation is the physical process in which an incident photon ejects one or more electrons from an atom, ion or molecule.

The ejected electrons, known as photoelectrons, carry information about their pre-ionised states. For example, a single electron can have a kinetic energy equal to the energy of the incident photon minus the electron binding energy of the state it left. Photons with energies less than the electron binding energy may be absorbed or scattered but will not photoionize the atom or ion.

For example, to ionize hydrogen, photons need an energy greater than 13.6 electronvolts, which corresponds to a wavelength of 91.2 nm.[1] For photons with greater energy than this, the energy of the emitted photoelectron is given by:

½mv2 = hν − 13.6 eV
where h is Planck's constant and ν is the frequency of the photon.

This formula defines the photoelectric effect.

Not every photon which encounters an atom or ion will photoionise it. The probability of photoionisation is related to the photoionization cross-section, which depends on the energy of the photon and the target being considered. For photon energies below the ionisation threshold, the photoionisation cross-section is zero.
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Last edited by h20power; 09-01-2009 at 07:04 AM.
  #1076  
Old 09-01-2009, 07:17 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Quote:
Photoionisation is the physical process in which an incident photon ejects one or more electrons from an atom, ion or molecule.

The ejected electrons, known as photoelectrons, carry information about their pre-ionised states. For example, a single electron can have a kinetic energy equal to the energy of the incident photon minus the electron binding energy of the state it left. Photons with energies less than the electron binding energy may be absorbed or scattered but will not photoionize the atom or ion.

For example, to ionize hydrogen, photons need an energy greater than 13.6 electronvolts, which corresponds to a wavelength of 91.2 nm.[1] For photons with greater energy than this, the energy of the emitted photoelectron is given by:

½mv2 = hν − 13.6 eV
where h is Planck's constant and ν is the frequency of the photon.

This formula defines the photoelectric effect.

Not every photon which encounters an atom or ion will photoionise it. The probability of photoionisation is related to the photoionization cross-section, which depends on the energy of the photon and the target being considered. For photon energies below the ionisation threshold, the photoionisation cross-section is zero.
End quote



Thats what i'm talking about, You can't use 13.6 eV to ionize the oxygen and hydrogen.

But you can use 3 eV laser diodes to knock an electron from a low working function metal at a speed in meters per second determined by E=h*v the same formula stanley showed planks constant. Once you have free electrons to hit the oxygen atoms as to have collisions. If don't provide free electrons you can't count with the oxygen electrons because they are almost neutral and will hardly leave the atom. This can be provided also by a heating filament being the cathode heated at the limit it emit electrons. and than apply high voltage on the anode to make them go that direction. Thats why he used the recirculation of the current too.
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Last edited by sebosfato; 09-01-2009 at 07:34 AM.
  #1077  
Old 09-01-2009, 07:46 AM
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tutanka tutanka is offline
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Laser leds inside GP start action of collision amplified from glass lens that summed to positive corona discharge producing plasma, for it GP is provided of glass lens, these focalized lasers and obtain at the same time Leds protection from reaction. But as explained are present others products from this reaction.
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  #1078  
Old 09-01-2009, 08:42 AM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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another book
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  #1079  
Old 09-01-2009, 01:49 PM
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lamare lamare is offline
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Hi all,

There's a whole lot of info on a.o. Stan Myer at:
The H2earth Instititute - CYBRARIUM: The Waterfiles Archive

The most interesting document is this one:
http://files.myopera.com/H2earth/fil...n%20Design.pdf

This states something about how stainless steel tubes should be prepared:

"It should be noted that shiny new stainless steel is not suitable for use as an electrode in any form of electrolysis. This can be seen in Joe Cell construction where the stainless steel cylinders need to be conditioned through repeated short periods of electrolysis. The same applies to flat plate electrolysers, where Bob Boyce points out that no serious volumes of gas will be produced until the stainless steel plates have received a white coating, produced by leaving them to sit unused in the Potassium Hydroxide solution for a few days. The same applies to this replication of Stan Meyer’s electrolysis unit. When the power is first applied, very little electrolysis takes place as the active surfaces of the pipes get covered with bubbles which stick to them. However, if they are left for a while with the bubbles in place, a brown scum forms on the surface of the water. The scum is cleaned off and another short period of electrolysis carried out to cover the plates with bubbles again. After this process has been carried out repeatedly, the brown scum no longer forms and the active tube surfaces have a white coating. At this point, the ‘conditioned’ tubes produce the kind of rapid electrolysis shown in the video."

This suggests that the white coating that appears forms an insulating layer on the electrodes (note that the wires and all electrical stuff inside the reactor is also stainless steel).
If that is true, then it looks like it is possible to do electrolysis (almost) without current, by putting the water in between insulated capacitor plates. In other words: it appears to be possible to perform electrolysis using only an electric field.
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  #1080  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:36 PM
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Oneminde Oneminde is offline
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@lamare

The wite pouder is also known as Ormes - read the pdf!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 8094345-ORMES-the-secret-WATER-FUEL-CELL-ingredient.pdf (57.5 KB, 63 views)
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