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  #31  
Old 07-17-2008, 01:16 AM
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Perfect!
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2008, 03:08 PM
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Jetijs,

Two Questions:
1- Would the relays be fast enough for engine operation?
2- Would it be possible to use something else instead of a UPS?

These are the things that is better to be brought into consideration.

Elias
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2008, 04:55 PM
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Elias,
Red already answered the question about relay switching.
As for the UPS, you can also use a separate battery and an inverter. It is not important how you get your 100-200v for the LV side
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2008, 07:09 PM
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I got my relays, capacitors and a whole bunch of diodes today. The relay is operated by 12v and is intended to switch up to 8A at 250V. They are two pole relays so I can use them to compleatly decouple the cap from the charging side on both - positive and negative wire. I don't know if this is necessary, because it still works if just one wire (positive) is used for switching. The caps are 400v 100uF electrolytic. Diodes are 1n5408. I still need to get the ignition coils. I have a car jung yard near my work, but they wont have four identical ignition coils, so I will need to use different ones. Do you think that this will be a problem?




Also, Red, I checked if the distributor of my car could work as a 12v switch, well, it does not work that way. There is a gap between contacts so that only high voltage can jump across. What can we do about that?
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2008, 08:00 PM
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Jet,
Can you bend the contact up on the rotor? Just to narrow the Gap until it is as close as we can get it without touching? Then put something like a bulb or similar to pull more of a load on the relay coil ground side.

I was thinking back through some of meyers Patents last night and remembered that he had actually developed a distributer cap device to trigger his injector setup.

So I started to think, if we need to, to put a Magnet in the rotor, and modify the cap to hold "Hall Effect" Switches or similar in the spots where the plug wires would normally connect.

What do you think?
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:23 PM
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Yes, Red,
I will probably have to make the distributor mod. Will post the cap and rotor pictures tomorrow. I think that I will be able to attach a magnet on the rotor. But what about pulse width? I have never worked with hall switches, but I suppose they work something like the reedswitch except that reedswithces do not require a power source. If that is so, then I will get a longer ON time when the switch is closer to the magnet and shorter ON time when the magnet is further away. We need to take into account that at more motor RPM's, the pulse ON time might be too short fo the relay to switch properly.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Yes, Red,
I will probably have to make the distributor mod. Will post the cap and rotor pictures tomorrow. I think that I will be able to attach a magnet on the rotor. But what about pulse width? I have never worked with hall switches, but I suppose they work something like the reedswitch except that reedswithces do not require a power source. If that is so, then I will get a longer ON time when the switch is closer to the magnet and shorter ON time when the magnet is further away. We need to take into account that at more motor RPM's, the pulse ON time might be too short fo the relay to switch properly.
Yes your right, Im thinking of pulling some cam and crank sensors at the Junk Yard and trying that route. They are more like Heavy Duty REED Switches. The Hall Effect Might Not Work. But these types definetly will.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:52 PM
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Jet,
Just figured a way to duplicate Meyers Design. Without a Bunch of led's.

Use Slotted Opto Sensors like this: SLOTTED OPTO SENSOR | AllElectronics.com

Mount a thin plastic or metal piece vertically on the Rotor to break the Beam.

This is exactly what Meyers was doing. But his had a cylinder that spun on the rotor, that was solid with one slit in it, effectively making a normally open circuit that closed when the slot went by.

This is another option that would surely give an instant trigger.

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  #39  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:59 PM
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Check this link out, its all about practical sparkplug plans and contains s1r9a9m9's plans

http://waterfuel.t35.com/water_explosion.html
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmeanie View Post
Yes your right, Im thinking of pulling some cam and crank sensors at the Junk Yard and trying that route. They are more like Heavy Duty REED Switches. The Hall Effect Might Not Work. But these types definetly will.
Yeah look this... ICE on idle 800 RPM = 13.33 Rev per second on 4 cyl engine = 3.33 Hertz. Only for run motor on Idle, some engines idle is low or high.
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:07 PM
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Reed switches can work even at 100Hz, relays maybe about 10Hz, still, it would be about 2400 RPM.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:15 PM
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Red, the optotriggers would work great, but that requires serious changes in the ignition system and lot of work. That's why I will probably at first try just piggybacking the HV impulses of the stock ignition system with LV boost. Will see what that does
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  #43  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Reed switches can work even at 100Hz, relays maybe about 10Hz, still, it would be about 2400 RPM.
There are Thousands of High Frequency Relays available, I think this might be something to look into. I just Googled it and almost every major manufacturer makes them.
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  #44  
Old 07-17-2008, 11:39 PM
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Jetijs
Uff, I don't known that, about Reed Switches max freq on reed switches, but, I have seen all your work in the forum, about Electrical Motor Secrets and others, and your works alwasys is great.... If ICE 4 cyl run with only on idle, your work is very important above all and would be a great advance.

Don't stop, for my comments, my comments were only for info way...
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Last edited by patmac; 07-18-2008 at 12:09 AM. Reason: This reply is for Jetijs, not readmine sorry, my connection is everyday worst :(
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  #45  
Old 07-18-2008, 12:13 AM
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@Jetijs

No, you don't need any slotted optical interrupters. It can be done more elegantly with reflective optical sensors. Also, I doubt it will be so complicated making semiconductors based circuit. Don't you remember what happened with attraction motor? Taking the shortest route isn't always most practical thing to do in the long run and I will repeat now what I said than- reed relays are the most inconvenient things when dealing with precise timings especially at higher frequencies.

That being said I will help you as much as I can with little time I have to spare. The rest we can handle as before- contact me on ICQ or Skype.

Last edited by lighty; 07-18-2008 at 12:18 AM.
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  #46  
Old 07-18-2008, 12:24 AM
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Lighty,
I did not mean that it would be too complicated to make the ignition system operating using optotrigger. It is just that this requires more parts that I don't have right now and longer time to make everything right. That is why for starters I will go with the LV side piggybacking the high voltage spike using an UPS, a capacitor an a whole bunch of diodes. I already have everything I need for this. If this will give any positive results, then I will certainly need your help to build a precisely controllable ignition system based on reflective optical sensors.

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  #47  
Old 07-18-2008, 12:46 AM
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No problem. You have my ICQ and Skype.
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2008, 08:26 AM
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My two cents on installing this in a car.

After looking over the circuit real close its seems real simple in principle becaues all you are really doing is using the high voltage to make a spark which then creates an ionizing trail for the cap to dump through. Once cap is empty there is no more circuit for it. So actually what one could do is just hook a cap up to each spark plug with a high voltage diode so the ignition doesn't back up into the cap. then just have a steady power supply of high voltage keeping all the caps full, and each time the distributor comes around to fire a spark plug it simultaneously dumps the cap that is attcahed to that spark plug seems like one can do it all with out realys at all, just using some diodes. No need for more ignition coils or anything just us the ignition of the car that is already in place without modifications. I will try to come up with a diagram. but it may take me a while.
Then if that works then all you need to do to get water in the engine is to install a good ultra sonic himidifier in the intake and the vacuum will suck all the fog into the motor to be blasted by the spark.
Any way put that in your pipe and smoke it. :-)
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  #49  
Old 07-19-2008, 02:15 AM
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@Jetijs
Re 4 coils might not be the same from junk yard:

In the USA, around the late 1980's, they started doing away with the distributor. There was a coil for each cylinder fired from sensors on the crank. These coils were compact designs. Maybe such a system is used where you live? You would just need to pull the coils off one engine of this design.

Also, to get the engine to run above idle, you may have to have multiple sparks per downstroke. We are dealing with micro explosions, not combustion. In Papp's Noble gas engine, He fired three pulses; TDC, then at 60 degrees and finally at 120 degrees of crank rotation. In the long run, you may have to go the optical sensor route? Or, maybe design some kind of multiple firing circuit?

Chris
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  #50  
Old 07-19-2008, 02:55 AM
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engine options - tuktuk/rickshaw

My friend and I are looking at converting a tuktuk. They are cheap and multitudinous in Asia so we feel they would be an ideal candidate for testing the prototype and getting public interest once it is up and running. They have a two stroke engine. Is there anything we should be looking out for?


Cheers.
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  #51  
Old 07-19-2008, 07:56 AM
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practical application

You're pretty right on the money. But the diode isn't just to prevent hv from exploding cap...if you do have the cap across gap in parallel and you try it without the diode, you can get away with blasting the HV into the cap but it could explode. Anyway, the point I'm making is that the cap will not discharge over the gap following the simple hv pulse across gap...it needs the radiant event caused by the hv diode to drop resistance enough to follow...it will not follow from a simple hv spark. The diode is there to give a low resistance path for hv back to ground...then it shuts off and causes hv pulse to puff up in order to get more potential out of it, has nowhere to go but over gap as only path to ground left...then the cap across plug with diode will follow.

What you're saying about getting rid of relays, etc... is exactly the conclusion I've come to and there needs to be no diode on the front side of the ignition. It does still need to be a cap discharge into the coil.

A CDI module added to a typical ignition system will suit the purpose of already making the capacitive discharges....then make the cap mod across the plugs with the diodes. There you go. But what voltage do you want the caps to be discharging?

Everyone thinks it is about low voltage high amp following but it isn't. Yes, it is current still but you want a high current pulse from very hv and low capacitance. Joules climb by the square of voltage so that is how you want the high current pulse to come from and not from low voltage high amps.

Look at my amplifier circuit, that is exactly what you are talking about...except there doesn't need to be the diode on the front side on the main cap that discharges to the primary of the ignition coil. Luc was doing the same but with an inverter across the plug. That is low voltage high amps. This is why it worked for luc with a 2uf cap...not because you can get the effect with the 2uf cap, but because the 2uf cap was all that is necessary for a simple capacitive discharge into the primary of the ignition coil...then that output goes towards diode...

The the hv output finds path to ground through HV diode series, through bridge to ground...the moment it jumps to it, diode shuts off, compressing hv pulse against diode, has nowhere to go but over plug, then the pulse from inverter/variac/whatever follows.

It works better with the variac or whatever charging up a cap like I showed and if you keep increasing voltage on cap or cap bank wired in series to increase voltage...like microwave oven transformer powered by variac and output on bridge (you probably want it adjustable) - bridge to cap - cap in parallel to plug with diode...but when getting to those voltages...you need some really good microwave diodes in the 10kv+ range and even with those, you'll want a few in series...and heat sinked...

The radiant blast separates h/o in the gap, ignites it and they come back together forming a vacuum. This is a factual known occurrance. George Wiseman has shown this for years with igniting browns gas.

Anyway, Meyer shows the EEC (electron extraction circuit) to take electrons to prevent them from being used to reassemble the h/o back into water. Is anyone working on this? It goes from annode...through bulb to burn off freed up electrons...then back to + input...a bulb in series there could instantly pull the electrons from the gap. This would allow a serious explosion from the gas without it instantly forming a vacuum. This is how to get real motive power from the blast and might be easier than boosting the plug spark 100 times. I doubt it needs to be that strong.

With a weak spark, some at overunity.com has already shown youtube vids of them getting a little motive power on a motor. Amplify the spark and they'll get better...steal electrons from the gap...probably better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vzon17 View Post
After looking over the circuit real close its seems real simple in principle becaues all you are really doing is using the high voltage to make a spark which then creates an ionizing trail for the cap to dump through. Once cap is empty there is no more circuit for it. So actually what one could do is just hook a cap up to each spark plug with a high voltage diode so the ignition doesn't back up into the cap. then just have a steady power supply of high voltage keeping all the caps full, and each time the distributor comes around to fire a spark plug it simultaneously dumps the cap that is attcahed to that spark plug seems like one can do it all with out realys at all, just using some diodes. No need for more ignition coils or anything just us the ignition of the car that is already in place without modifications. I will try to come up with a diagram. but it may take me a while.
Then if that works then all you need to do to get water in the engine is to install a good ultra sonic himidifier in the intake and the vacuum will suck all the fog into the motor to be blasted by the spark.
Any way put that in your pipe and smoke it. :-)
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  #52  
Old 07-19-2008, 09:58 AM
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extracting the electrons

Hi,

@Aaron

That sounds like a very plausible way to boost the energy transference without having to up the power requirements.


btw, I have setup a blog to attempt to make this info more accessible for the average person.

Http://yeswaterisfuel.com

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  #53  
Old 07-19-2008, 01:07 PM
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Running a Generator

Hi,

One practical application would be buying a 2KW Natural Gas Generator and converting it to a water power generator!

Like this one Green Power Plant Permanent Ind. Co.

Elias
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  #54  
Old 07-19-2008, 01:43 PM
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Apllied to car?

Has anyone seen this video, or is this individual perhaps somewhere in this group?

YouTube - Plasma spark in running engine

I took my electronics to my truck and hooked up a few different arrangements. The best I could do, without adding the inverter, cap, etc., was to retard and stall the engine. I figured it was a little too low of voltage coming from the car, but I had to see it to rule it out.
Has anyone else tried just adding the diode principle to the existing stock setup of the car?
I have not pulled a plug yet to see what it actually looked like, my boy woke up and my wife is just off the night shift sleeping, so that will have to wait.
And I should probably find a small engine to work on to avoid any problems getting to work.. lol
Thanks,

Marcel
Is there a spell checker on this thing?
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:16 PM
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If you use firefox it has a spellchecker built in.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:56 PM
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I've been meaning to check into firefox for a while now, I really like thunderbird. I guess this would be a good time to try.. Thanks,

Marcel
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  #57  
Old 07-19-2008, 03:03 PM
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Yes, Water is Fuel

Great blog, keep posting!
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:32 PM
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misc

With this spark plug method, it is possible that some radiant kickback might fry some computers or other electronics in a car...not sure if it will but something I wouldn't want to do.

Someone at overunity.com said they did this spark method on some engine with gasoline and it was different but they didn't say what was different.
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  #59  
Old 07-19-2008, 04:14 PM
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I was thinking the radiant might fry something, thats why I made the need my truck for work comment. I've popped so many caps and meters, etc. it's ridiculous.
Come monday I'm going to o see if I can grab a small engine. There is a nice big second hand kind of dump barn thing here next to where I live. They should have something there. I'll bolt it to a table and try some setups on that.
I would like to know how that person in that video has his stuff hooked up though. It looks like one wire coming from the positive side of the spark plug, and one wire coming from the engine block as a ground. Both wires are going out of view.. hmm.. time will tell.
Keep the experiments going!

Marcel
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brusers View Post
I was thinking the radiant might fry something, thats why I made the need my truck for work comment. I've popped so many caps and meters, etc. it's ridiculous.
Come monday I'm going to o see if I can grab a small engine. There is a nice big second hand kind of dump barn thing here next to where I live. They should have something there. I'll bolt it to a table and try some setups on that.
I would like to know how that person in that video has his stuff hooked up though. It looks like one wire coming from the positive side of the spark plug, and one wire coming from the engine block as a ground. Both wires are going out of view.. hmm.. time will tell.
Keep the experiments going!

Marcel
Some motorcycle engine will do it.
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