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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #1  
Old 06-08-2008, 10:28 AM
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Stan meyer circuit

I've posted this question on a couple of threads allready but i'm afraid there's been almost no response (except from redmeanie).

Is the stan meyer circuit linear or is it something else, if so what?

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Old 06-08-2008, 03:17 PM
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linear circuit?

What do you mean by linear? Gas production goes up linearly as the power input climbs...in a linear fashion? Like a straight line going up diagonal at 45 degrees?

If so, considering the effects of ion collision, etc... there is non-linear gas production compared to the power going up. If this is even what you're asking.
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:41 PM
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hey I found this PDF a while ago. It contains a pretty clear reproduction of his machine. Along with all the circuits.

http://pesn.com/2007/11/29/9500461_B..._Kelly2006.pdf

What i find peculiar though is that this reproduction is just using 12 Volts. I thought stan was using high voltage for his electrolyser. Can someone enlighten me?
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:52 PM
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What Aaron said is what I was leading you towards. Through the Conventional Electronics he used, it is a Linear system, by definition. After that it becomes unconventional and unknown, what exactly was going on with the system. That is what everyone is trying to figure out. If it was a solely Linear system it would be real easy to duplicate. Which the initial electronics end in the Meyers circuit is. It is just figuring out the chokes and coils, which are not operating in a "Linear" fashion. No one knows just exactly What is happening there.

The key is trying to crack the code of exactly what he was doing, like everyone experimenting with Meyers cell is. Then you could tell us exactly what is going on there. There are people here who have been trying for years with some success but none have completely gotten the results Meyers did. And if they do Im sure we will know about it.

Why the obsession with Linear or Not?

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Old 06-08-2008, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Redmeanie View Post
What Aaron said is what I was leading you towards. Through the Conventional Electronics he used, it is a Linear system, by definition. After that it becomes unconventional and unknown, what exactly was going on with the system. That is what everyone is trying to figure out. If it was a solely Linear system it would be real easy to duplicate. Which the initial electronics end in the Meyers circuit is. It is just figuring out the chokes and coils, which are not operating in a "Linear" fashion. No one knows just exactly What is happening there.

The key is trying to crack the code of exactly what he was doing, like everyone experimenting with Meyers cell is. Then you could tell us exactly what is going on there. There are people here who have been trying for years with some success but none have completely gotten the results Meyers did. And if they do Im sure we will know about it.

Why the obsession with Linear or Not?

hehe, i don't know about obsession but i'm just playing with a couple of ideas... as you probably know (please correct me if i'm wrong) you can add voltages together in a linear circuit: f(ax1 + bx2) = af(x1) + bf(x2).
i'm not sure but i think this may be worth looking into... not sure how though.
yet that is

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Old 06-09-2008, 12:12 AM
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just some Meyer comments

Ion collision is one effect that happens in the water bath between a gap and it causes even more freed up gas independent from what the circuit has really contributed in joules of energy.

Robert Flanagan used this concept with his negative ion generators for air purification. He referred to it as an "electron cascade." Electrons emitted from the generators would hit other electrons in the air freeing them and those would hit more and so forth like a chain reaction. So the total freed up electrons to bond onto positive charged dust particles in the vicinity were WAY MORE than what left the generator.

Between two plates or tubes...if there is high enough potential difference at the plates/tubes and enough dielectric keeping it from arcing across...the water in that high voltage electrostatic field is extremely stressed. The oxygen is pulled to the positive plate and the hydrogen is pulled to the negative plate. If the electrostatic potential is high enough, most likely in the range of 10,000 volts to 80,000 volts, that tension is stronger than the covalent bonding strength and the electrostatic bonding strength of the water molecule.

From what I found...about 10% of the bond strength of the h&o in water is covalent and about 90% is electrostatic attraction. True? I have no idea but conceptually, it doesn't matter because it makes enough sense that if the electrostatic field is stronger than the h&o bond that it will pull it apart with zero current passing through the water...pure voltage potential separation. There is still current being used in the power source anyway so yes, there is a loss there but only needs to be enough power used to simply hold the high voltage tension at the plates. If enough dielectric, the water in theory should split all day long without any current ever passing through the water.

I realize there isn't even proof electrons exist so what is water anyway? All we have are ideas/models that seem to make sense for the moment.

With high enough voltage potential, any freed electron from any of the gasp production from this method will speed up exponentially towards the positive plate like the hydrogen and those ridiculously fast flying electrons will knock other electrons out of orbit freeing up more gas up and there was no extra power consumed from the input...it was independent of what is supplied, which is only potential at the plates anyway with no current passing.

Again, even if zero current passes through the cell and if there is gas production happening this way, there is still current in watts consumed in the power supply to get the hv potential at the plates to begin with so it isn't free, there is an input investment necessary. But of course, if gas production happens like this with no current moving through the cell, then the power output from the gas that is possible should be record breaking COP's approaching infinity the longer the system runs as long as no current passes the gap.

Anyway, dielectrics on the plates/tubes to hold back the current seems to be the only way to really get the voltage way up there to cause the effect...and so that it is done so there isn't any short circuits anywhere in the water bath between the plates/tubes...if so, then people will start to measure higher voltages at the cell instead of a couple volts no matter what they throw at it.

I suggested the use of an ignition coil used in series...no neg terminal used, just pos input through coil and hv output towards the cell...inline choke because the ignition coil is already about 10k ohms like what Meyer's used...and one person did it and measured several hundred volts at the water cell. What would it have measured on his cell if he built it like a cap so the tubes or plates weren't short circuited through the water? I don't know for his particular cell but all these things seem to paint a very clear picture of what fundamental concepts might be a good idea to be in place to accomplish this.

Perhaps chokes aren't even necessary. Everything that can be gathered about Meyer seems to show he is doing everything necessary to restrict current. He says in his tech manual right off the bat..."voltage potential." Chokes limit current because of the magnetic field produced in them and NOT because of the high ohms resistance that they are. He says the concept he is using is not a resistive element to limit current...it is the magnetic field the chokes make. Along with the fact that almost nothing Meyer said can be trusted, it makes for a very exciting mystery.

If you had a 1 inch gap and were able to hold back a million volts of tension and the plates were say a foot tall...and you poured water down the gap somehow, I doubt any liquid would hit the bottom.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:40 AM
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dielectrics on the plates/tubes to hold back the current seems to be the only way to really get the voltage way up there to cause the effect

Aaron do you mean coating all metal? everything being water tight? no part of the cell/wires being exposed?

I read those sights you posted. Very interesting reading about liberated electrons hitting others and freeing them. The electrons moving at a speed that overpowers the reatraction force. very fun to think about!!
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:59 AM
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water capacitor

Right...everything to eliminate any jumping across the plates/tubes.

There is an all or none kind of situation here. With enough dielectric to hold back serious voltage...some good voltage can be put to the cell and there is virtually no gas production. I have seen a handful of attempts at this and the project is abandoned because of lack of virtually any gas production at all. But nobody is really using serious high voltage in this type of water capacitor. Dingel is using hv from an ignition coil supposedly but who knows what he is really doing. Either way, conceptually, there will be pretty much nothing visible happening until for that particular cell, gap, power applied etc... until there is real electrostatic potential there.

I'll post my results failed or not of a project I started end of last year as soon as I can.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:46 PM
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Same device?

when scrolling down the WFC manual, there seems to be loads of different variations of the VIC. Is that the case or is he just describing different aspects of the same device?

it's all a bit confusing

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
there seems to be loads of different variations of the VIC.

Yes his intensifier seems to have many uses in his several designs, have you noticed the analog nature of his waveforms? and all of the mention of resonance?

The fuel injector/spark plug design is the most interesting aspect of Mr. M's designs I have studied.

Many of the attempts to replicate use purely digital (square wave) shapes
however we live in an analog world, for instance when you ring a bell if you look at the resulting waveform on an Oscope it certainly doesnot contain square waves ! you can approximate the sound and try to filter out the digital aspect
with R/C or L/C however Mr. M used a rotating "transformer" (AC induction)
to get what was as close to nature's resonance of water as he could, while mixing signals with the choke, or better explained, as adding an analog signal on top of the baseline DC.

Just my 2 cents...
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:28 PM
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Yes his intensifier seems to have many uses in his several designs, have you noticed the analog nature of his waveforms? and all of the mention of resonance?

The fuel injector/spark plug design is the most interesting aspect of Mr. M's designs I have studied.

Many of the attempts to replicate use purely digital (square wave) shapes
however we live in an analog world, for instance when you ring a bell if you look at the resulting waveform on an Oscope it certainly doesnot contain square waves ! you can approximate the sound and try to filter out the digital aspect
with R/C or L/C however Mr. M used a rotating "transformer" (AC induction)
to get what was as close to nature's resonance of water as he could, while mixing signals with the choke, or better explained, as adding an analog signal on top of the baseline DC.

Just my 2 cents...
Yes i have noticed his analog waveforms and all the mention of resonance... but i'm afraid you lost me while explaining the other stuff . I'm pretty new to this subject and have practically no experience with oscopes etc.

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Old 06-09-2008, 04:54 PM
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Hopefully these help to visualize the concept, I see you are a fan of N.Hill so you can appreciate visualization
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sine_Explained.jpg (45.7 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Square_Explained.jpg (16.5 KB, 28 views)
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:19 PM
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In layman's terms... (Distilling what I'm reading...)

Was Meyer's trying to approach breaking the covalent bond by "shaking them" apart with resonance? And then... trying to strip electro-static bond by shocking them apart?

From what I am getting... something like an high voltage or maybe an EMF pulse shot through water should strip the bond and free the HHO gas? (It seems like it should be a very reactive process, not a little bubbling, but mass amounts of gas if that were the case.)

For most of what I've been seeing on the forums, people are primarily using brute force electrolysis to get the job done. Whereas Stan Meyer's seem to ... almost coax the molecules apart by using their own nature or... by using a "key" of sorts.

My technical understanding being a barrier, but notwithstanding, I can see how these methods would work, now it is how to establish that environment that it happened in?

Just trying to digest and rephrase what I'm hearing.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:35 PM
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Stan Meyer's seem to ... almost coax the molecules apart by using their own nature

Yes, you got it... try this at home.

take a plastic pitcher full of water, then take a small green stick (freshly picked)
so it is springy.

if you tap the side of the pitcher you will see a wave on the surface, it will diminish and stop in a few seconds.

However if you tap the side and hold the stick with just the right amount of force it will vibrate or oscillate, if you can get it to oscillate at the right frequency, you can get the waves to add to each other with every vibration, causing the "amplitude" to increase.

several natural forces are at work here however, just ponder what is going on
and how much work was put into it, with 1 strike vs a strike and hold, what is the difference in output?

Square waves do not do this, yes you can "stack" a square wave onto another, but this natural analog additive effect is beauty in physics.
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:56 PM
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Hopefully these help to visualize the concept, I see you are a fan of N.Hill so you can appreciate visualization
Thanks that really helped
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:02 PM
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Does a PWM produce analoge waves or sine waves? and yes WCastle, i do appreciate visualization

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Old 06-09-2008, 06:14 PM
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Does a PWM produce analoge waves or sine waves?

Well that depends...

A pulse in itself is square, however if you send it into the rotor winding of a rotating AC induction motor, and sample the stator windings you can see the resulting waveform that Mr. M. was using (from what I can tell)

anyway, I am not trying to confuse anyone just thinking aloud.
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:23 PM
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anyway, I am not trying to confuse anyone just thinking aloud.
Nothing wrong with that
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:27 PM
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just to have it covered

In the New Zealand house video, he openly mentions that some of the things he lists are there simply so he has it covered in the patent...for example, the use of stainless steel wire. It is worth watching.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:29 PM
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In the New Zealand house video, he openly mentions that some of the things he lists are there simply so he has it covered in the patent...for example, the use of stainless steel wire. It is worth watching.
Do you think it would be possible to get a link to that video?
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:34 PM
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Nothing wrong with that
WCASTLE Knows his stuff!!

Like he said, yes a PWM generally sends out square waves. But this output is changed drastically by Coils and Chokes. That is why I said I believe Meyers Circuit is Linear up to that point.

If you are looking for a Square Wave that is Amplified, just use a PWM But you are limited to the True Voltages you can get through a Mosfet. That is the only way I see keeping a Square Wave.

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Old 06-09-2008, 11:38 PM
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Stan Meyer New Zealand House Video

I've seen it in torrent searches, etc... but anytime it is posted anywhere, someone from one of the water fuel websites claims copyright infringement and google or whatever takes it down. I have yet to see any proof they have any rights to the videos at all even though they retail the videos. They were sold by someone in NZ (might find that link that) way before these people were.

At Torrents Search Engine you can search for STAN MEYER and you'll see it but you need bitlord or some other torrent downloading program. I don't know the truth about the copyright but you can probably search the answer.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:45 PM
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WCASTLE Knows his stuff!!

Like he said, yes a PWM generally sends out square waves. But this output is changed drastically by Coils and Chokes. That is why I said I believe Meyers Circuit is Linear up to that point.

If you are looking for a Square Wave that is Amplified, just use a PWM But you are limited to the True Voltages you can get through a Mosfet. That is the only way I see keeping a Square Wave.

Thanks,
but i don't see the point of using a certain type of wave, unless of course one results in better efficiency than the other. and the point of having a linear circuit, as far as i can see, only matters when you have to deal with superpositioning... as i have said before it's just some random ideas i'm playing with.
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:02 AM
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I've seen it in torrent searches, etc... but anytime it is posted anywhere, someone from one of the water fuel websites claims copyright infringement and google or whatever takes it down. I have yet to see any proof they have any rights to the videos at all even though they retail the videos. They were sold by someone in NZ (might find that link that) way before these people were.

At Torrents Search Engine you can search for STAN MEYER and you'll see it but you need bitlord or some other torrent downloading program. I don't know the truth about the copyright but you can probably search the answer.
Thank's Aaron,
one other issue though. if you take a look at figure 7-13: VIC Secondary Switch-Off Coil-Array in the WFC manual (i'm afraid i haven't figured out how to add pictures to posts), what excactly is it?

everybody is talking about the chokes and the capasitor, wich of course are crusial, but what is all the electronics behind it?

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Old 06-10-2008, 01:06 AM
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Linearity

Linearity of a system depends upon what you call input and output. Any ideal circuit involving resistors, capacitors, and inductors will have a linear relationship between any voltages and currents.

Just about every real life physical system is nonlinear. There can often be found some suitable range where we can approximate the behavior as linear. Linear systems are desirable because they are easier to analyze and reproduce than nonlinear systems. We can use superposition techniques and, most usefully, Fourier techniques to analyze what is going on.

As for the Meyer device, talk of extremely high potentials almost certainly implies it is acting in a highly nonlinear region. Further, if we are considering something other than a voltage or current as the input or output, such as the amount of gas production, then a nonlinearity will likely be involved.
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Old 06-10-2008, 01:58 AM
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Lightbulb Thinking out loud...

If anyone has mentioned this, my apologies. In some of Meyer's materials he shows a pulsing transformer which is drawn to show that the input side is the lower voltage side and the output side is stepped up. I don't recall exactly which document had the comment, but I do recall reading kV ranges... H2O will start to disassociate in the 20-25kV range and at very high frequencies (approaching PHz) naturally. In combination, the stepped up voltage (with little or no amperage) coupled with higher frequency pulses (but don't have to be in the 10E15 range that water disassociates at) that are gated should work together to create the resonant breakdown Meyers (and others) talk about. At higher frequencies the output won't be a square wave at all... it will naturally "roll over" and become sinusoidal. Even in moderate speeds (approaching 500MHz-1GHz and going up from there) generated square wave signals start to look like sine waves. Getting the high voltage isn't very hard to do (even a simple diode and cap cascade will get you there without the stepup transformer)... Getting very high frequencies takes more work, but should still be "doable". The standard PWM & 555 circuits that are generally out there will only get you so far in accomplishing that, but they're the starting point. Ummmm sorry for the ramble...

Forgive this mental intrusion...
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:21 AM
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If anyone has mentioned this, my apologies. In some of Meyer's materials he shows a pulsing transformer which is drawn to show that the input side is the lower voltage side and the output side is stepped up. I don't recall exactly which document had the comment, but I do recall reading kV ranges... H2O will start to disassociate in the 20-25kV range and at very high frequencies (approaching PHz) naturally. In combination, the stepped up voltage (with little or no amperage) coupled with higher frequency pulses (but don't have to be in the 10E15 range that water disassociates at) that are gated should work together to create the resonant breakdown Meyers (and others) talk about. At higher frequencies the output won't be a square wave at all... it will naturally "roll over" and become sinusoidal. Even in moderate speeds (approaching 500MHz-1GHz and going up from there) generated square wave signals start to look like sine waves. Getting the high voltage isn't very hard to do (even a simple diode and cap cascade will get you there without the stepup transformer)... Getting very high frequencies takes more work, but should still be "doable". The standard PWM & 555 circuits that are generally out there will only get you so far in accomplishing that, but they're the starting point. Ummmm sorry for the ramble...

Forgive this mental intrusion...
I love mental intrusions

but when you say a standard PWM and 555 ciruits will only get me so far... do you know what will get me there?

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Old 06-10-2008, 09:22 AM
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Linearity of a system depends upon what you call input and output. Any ideal circuit involving resistors, capacitors, and inductors will have a linear relationship between any voltages and currents.

Just about every real life physical system is nonlinear. There can often be found some suitable range where we can approximate the behavior as linear. Linear systems are desirable because they are easier to analyze and reproduce than nonlinear systems. We can use superposition techniques and, most usefully, Fourier techniques to analyze what is going on.

As for the Meyer device, talk of extremely high potentials almost certainly implies it is acting in a highly nonlinear region. Further, if we are considering something other than a voltage or current as the input or output, such as the amount of gas production, then a nonlinearity will likely be involved.
Ok so it's non-linear.. good to know.
thanks
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:50 PM
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I love mental intrusions

but when you say a standard PWM and 555 ciruits will only get me so far... do you know what will get me there?

I should clarify... I didn't mean that those circuits won't work, especially for creating the resonances for a WFC. I was thinking about the frequencies needed to disassociate water in general... which are much higher without other processes playing in the mix. So to explain, as an example, the 555 timer circuits generally max out in the ~100kHz ranges and most PWM chips, even the "Hi-speed" or "High Frequency" ones, seem to top out in the ~MHz range. Perhaps that is enough to accomplish the goal, but not alone. It's certainly enough to resonate a WFC depending on the construction. There are harmonics to consider, but those outputs drop off considerably in strength.

The H2 (not H20, just H2) Ionization frequency is around 3.26 PHz (that's 3.26 Million GHz). Water disassociates much lower than that, but in Meyer's patent on the "spark plug" device, he shows the light frequency introduced through the LED banks. Also, throughout Meyer's patents and literature there is mention of frequency being used along with voltage potential (with an emphasis on low current). A bright red LED will put out a visible frequency in the 428 PHz range (that's still 428 thousand GHz frequency). (InfraRed is slightly lower, UV is nearly double the frequency of that red LED) Personally, I think that's an interesting tidbit to think about in regards to how that design worked and where Meyer's was "coming from".

Some discussion has mentioned the resonance of the WFC (thus the mention of "tuning" the tubes to match the inner-outer tubes together). From what I've read in Meyer's papers/patents, that is important. But it seems to me that it is also important to resonate the H2O in conjunction/connection with the WFC. In one of Meyer's patents/papers he describes a single 3" tube capacitor as having a resonance of ~5kHz, obviously within the range of the timing circuits discussed. But, he goes on to say that different setups have different resonances... and mentions going to 50kHz and higher. He also states the voltages of 2-5kV at the WFC. In fact, the statement was made (IIRC as a footnote) that 1.5kV is the minimum needed to get resonance to begin and that the pulse harmonics, depending on WFC construction, need to be 9-144kHz to get the WFC to resonate (note: not the H2O, but the WFC). In Meyer's papers/patents there are step up transformers for voltage and step up transformers for frequency. The discussion on another thread about the chokes that Meyer's made is integral to my train of thought here. Meyer's custom wound chokes/inductors/etc essentially perform the voltage and frequency increases...

Other research has used voltage potentials in the 50kV range (with an optimum being about 1/2 that) to disassociate water with little or no current.

I've read the mention of using higher voltage potential and there are plenty of pulse circuits around. I'm just thinking that there is a need to combine the two (ala Meyer). And it seems that by using the two together, the voltage doesn't need to be quite so high and the frequency doesn't need to be quite so high. I still haven't decided whether just getting the WFC to resonate is enough. Perhaps "tuning" the WFC so that the resonance of the WFC has a higher order harmonic that is the resonance of H2O is the key.

Again... just "thinking out loud" and pondering...

Regardless, I'd like to hear from folks who've been stepping up the voltage into the multiple kV range along with tuning the frequency. Any info on the results of such experiments would be interesting.

I have one timer circuit setup with an induction coil setup that I want to test and a second setup that specifically steps up the voltage (still being built/refined). Unfortunately, when I went last Friday to pick up the machined SS to use in my version of a WFC, the machine shop had allowed a "new kid" to run the machining process and he'd basically ruined a few hundred dollars worth of SS. (Grrrrrr....) They're going to replace the stuff at their expense (as they should), but it caused me two problems. 1) I couldn't do the work on this that I wanted to last weekend, 2) now I have to wait for the new SS to come in and get machined. They said I was "at the top of the list", but last time I waited for over 2 weeks for them to "get to it". I thought that it would be better to have it done this way, but it hasn't worked out for me.

Later...
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:57 PM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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radiant spikes

This is what my output looks like in one of my Bedini oscillators. I independently found how to make these oscillators in 7 years ago. This is what the output is and what I have applied to different cells with different voltages. This is neither really a square wave or sine wave...it is pure potential impulses. This pic isn't from John's site, it is my own. This particular shot is 12v in and about 440v out on a coil with 1:1 turn ratio. There is a purpose for the 1:1. Anyway, I'll post 2 schematics side by side that I have tried to show the comparison of about 4 years ago or so when I was trying to convince people that they have to learn how to make circuits that output voltage potential to apply to the WFC and that studying Bedini's circuits is probably the best way to to learn it.

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