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Water Fuel This forum is for discussion on any water fuel topic dealing with electrolysis, Stanley Meyer, hho, Brown's Gas, Puharich, etc...

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  #1  
Old 11-25-2014, 04:33 PM
Cycle Cycle is offline
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Molecular distances and corresponding frequencies

According to:
Hydrogen Bonding and Orbital Models
In ambient atmosphere the OO in the water dimer is 2.985 angstrom (calculated by JMW); the short OH bond is 0.948 angstrom and the long bond is 2.037 angstrom.

That's .2985 nm, .0948 nm and .2037 nm.

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR

2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717351890034363270 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

2.985 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.0043e+18 Hz or 1.0043298425460636160 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1623677004219407360 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

Water Radiolysis - Dissociating Water with Radio Waves
"Guenther and Holzapfel irradiated water with X-rays in contact with a large free volume in a vacuum system and found large continuing yields of hydrogen gas."

According to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...ption_by_water
Water has its highest absorption at 65 to 70 nm, which is 4.2827e+15 to 4.4087e+15 Hz. That's ultraviolet range. But that'd just cause the water to heat up, I think.

So, if we hit the water with:
1.4717 ExaHertz
3.1624 ExaHertz
that should excite all the points of vibration in the molecules at their resonant frequencies, forcing the molecules to dissociate.

How to electrically generate that high of a frequency?

How about piezoelectrics?

X-Ray Scanner Is the Size of a Stick of Gum : Discovery News
==========
"Kovaleski capitalized on this property by attaching an electrode to each side of the lithium niobate crystal, and then hitting it with alternating current. But instead of using 120 volts alternating at 60 times per second the standard for household currents Kovaleskis group used 10 volts alternating at 40,000 times per second. That frequency is specially tuned to the lithium niobate crystal: it makes it vibrate in a very specific way. It makes it ring like a bell, Kovaleski told Discovery News.

All that vibrating generated an electric field equal to 100,000 volts. Kovaleski was able to turn 10 volts into 100,000 because he and his team modified the ends of the crystals with tiny bits of wire shaped like sharp points. The pieces were so small, the points were at the scale of atoms. But electric fields tend to build up at sharp points and so even though the amount of current going in was small, enough energy gathered on those wires to pull electrons from the crystal at strengths of 100,000 volts.

Electrons moving at that speed produce x rays when they hit anything because the atoms in the material slow or deflect the electrons. That deflection or slowdown takes energy away from the electron, and the energy takes the form of an x-ray photon. To make a portable x-ray generator, all that is needed is a block of dense material with lots of atoms for the electrons to hit lead will do. Voil, you have x rays."
==========

I wonder if you were to hit that lithium niobate with 42,800 Hz, if that would generate the frequencies needed to dissociate the water? Note that they're already using 40,000 Hz.

Then you'd have the standard 42,800 Hz that's mentioned in a lot of water dissociation topics, and you'd have your X-ray frequencies.

Good idea, or no?
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2014, 07:36 PM
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Going further down this particular rabbit hole, water is dipolar and diamagnetic, so we can use magnetic fields to orient the water molecules.

If we lined up the water molecules, then hit the molecules at the three frequencies outlined above, at the appropriate angle to cause the most dissociation, that should improve dissociation yield, correct?

Sort of creating an "assembly line" for the water molecules, where we line them up and knock them apart.

And, we can calculate the voltage required to produce the electrons that will cause the photon emission upon impinging upon the lead shielding:

Lecture 28, Nov. 13, 2000
What minimum accelerating voltage would be required to produce an x-ray with a wavelength of 0.0300nm?

Since lmin = hc/eDV, we can turn this around to find
DVmin = hc/el = (6.6310^-34Js)(3.010^8m/s)/(1.610^-19C)(3.0010^-11m) = 4.110^4V = 41kV.

=================================

DVmin = hc/el = (6.6310^-34Js)(3.010^8m/s)/(1.610^-19C)(2.98510^-10m) = 4.1645728643216 kV

DVmin = hc/el = (6.6310^-34Js)(3.010^8m/s)/(1.610^-19C)(9.4810^-11m) = 13.1131329113924 kV

DVmin = hc/el = (6.6310^-34Js)(3.010^8m/s)/(1.610^-19C)(2.03710^-10m) = 6.1017245949926 kV

Can someone please check my math? I usually misplace the decimal point.
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:39 AM
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Plunging headlong down the rabbit hole...

The basic premise is that the water molecule is a center Oxygen pivot, with two Hydrogen flappers... if we vibrate those two flappers at their resonant frequency, the vibration intensity builds until it literally rips the hydrogen off its hinges. I've heard it called a "Resonance Catastrophe".

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Now, looking at the attenuation of x-rays in water, I see that it's dependent upon the photon energy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray#...ttenuation.svg

Using the calculator:
X-Ray attenuation & absorption calculator

For the .2037 nm (1.4717 ExaHertz), it would have 6086.6 eV, giving an attenuation path length of ~6.15 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 97.5952% Photoabsorption, 0.5371% Compton Scattering and 1.8676% Rayleigh Scattering.

For the .0948 nm (3.1624 ExaHertz), it would have 13079 eV, giving an attenuation path length of ~58.65 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 86.6650% Photoabsorption, 6.7558% Compton Scattering and 6.5792% Rayleigh Scattering.

For the .2985 nm (1.0043 ExaHertz), it would have 4153.6 ev, giving an attenuation path length of ~1.97 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 98.9491% Photoabsorption, 0.1313% Compton Scattering and 0.9196% Rayleigh Scattering.

So we wouldn't have to have a large cell to completely absorb the x-rays being generated. Of course, those are the minimum voltages discussed above to produce the x-rays of the desired wavelengths.

But we'd want to be as close to those wavelengths as possible in order to "flap" the hydrogen as efficiently as possible. A take on resonance-enhanced photon ionization.

Unlike ionic compounds, such as sodium chloride, water molecules are not ionized before they dissociate; they accomplish ionization and dissociation at the same time.

Here's something interesting I found... it's exactly what I'm talking about as regards using a magnet to align the dipoles, then using resonance to crack the water apart:
Patent WO2010059751A2 - Methods and systems for dissociation of water molecules using inertial ... - Google Patents

"A magnetic field can create dipole-aligned water molecules that can accept energy at the hydrogen-oxygen bond resonance frequency or a sub-harmonic thereof. An oscillating electromagnetic field can cause resonance catastrophe, resulting in the dissociation of water into hydrogen ions (e.g., H+) and oxygen ions (e.g., O2"). An electrostatic field and a modified Ranque-Hilsch vortex can be used to separate the ionized hydrogen from ionized oxygen with minimum post-dissociation collisions."

Except they're talking about dissociation via an electromagnetic field, whereas I'm talking about hitting the water with x-rays at its absorption frequency window for each frequency, and at the correct angle (after lining up the molecules via a magnetic field) for each frequency to get the maximum molecular cross-section.

Also found this:
http://goo.gl/RhaxDe
(sorry, the original URL is really long)

Title:
"Dynamics of ultrafast dissociation of hydrogenic molecules by resonant antibonding core electron excitation"

"Excitations of core electrons can cause dissociation of molecules before the core holes decays, in particular if the core electron is resonantly excited into an antibonding molecular orbital and one of the fragments is very light."

"Hydrogen or deuterium and halogens are the optimum partners for UFD: the low masses of the first enable rapid acceleration and preferential energy deposition on the light fragment due to momentum conservation; and the Z+1 behavior of the latter warrants antibonding core-excited states."
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Old 11-26-2014, 06:18 AM
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One interesting thing I took away from that "Dynamics of ultrafast dissociation" paper is that they achieve higher hydrogen yields by shifting the frequency toward a shorter wavelength (higher frequency) than resonance... and I have an inkling of an idea.

What if what is happening is, as the researchers above state, the water molecule dissociation starts by the two hydrogens symmetrically extending away from the oxygen, then one of the hydrogens breaks off, and the other snaps back toward the oxygen. And by "blue-shifting", they just happened to hit a point where they were adding that last little push of energy to the weaker hydrogen bond just as it approached the oxygen, which helped it to rebound and go flying. Or they added just enough energy to one hydrogen as it approached the oxygen, and the molecule, in trying to maintain dipolar moment, transferred just enough of that energy to the other hydrogen just as it was rebounding, causing it to go flying.

The "symmetrical stretching" part isn't a usual vibration mode of the water molecule without excitation. Usually, in the absence of excitation, it undergoes asymmetrical stretching, rocking, scissoring, wagging, and twisting. All of these DOF movements preserve the underlying symmetry and net cumulated O-H-O distances. But symmetrical stretching is different... it stretches both springs at once.

In the parlance of springs and weights, it's a two-spring system (the hydrogens are connected via one spring each, with the two springs connected to each other through the oxygen). So if one hydrogen moves away from the oxygen, the other has to move closer.

But, as energy builds up in the molecule due to our exciting it at resonant frequency, we stretch *both* springs at once (symmetrical stretching), until finally the ever-so-slightly weaker spring snaps, and the ever-so-slightly stronger spring recoils.

The increased distance between the hydrogen and oxygen changes the resonant frequency a bit... so the researchers were using as a baseline the resonant frequency of a water molecule undergoing *no* excitation... but by blue-shifting to a higher frequency when under excitation, they actually hit the *new* resonant frequency of one of the hydrogen's 'springs' as it was rebounding.

If the researchers had red-shifted their frequency, they might have been able to add energy to *both* hydrogens just as they were symmetrically stretched the most, and caused both hydrogens to go flying. *Really* ultrafast dissociation.

Comments? Or am I completely off base here?
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Old 11-26-2014, 08:56 PM
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It's become apparent to me that Stan Meyer was going for breaking the short O-H bond.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1624 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

Fundamental Frequency: 3162400000000000000 Hz

One of Stan Meyer's harmonics of his 3890 Hz fundamental is 15.920 KHz.
I'm betting he was going for the 0.948 angstrom (3.1624 ExaHertz) short O-H bond subharmonic of 15.812 KHz. That's only 108 Hz off, and allowing for water impurities, is spot on. Or it may be that his calculations were of a higher precision than mine, and he was spot on to begin with, and my calculations are slightly off.

I'm not sure why he'd want to break the short O-H bond, given that the molecule undergoes symmetrical stretching under excitation. We should be aiming to break that long O-H bond, because *both* the hydrogens enter that state under excitation, so we have the chance to dissociate both of them from the oxygen.

2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

So we'd be using frequencies of either 14.717 KHz, 14.717 MHz or 2.45283 GHz (simply because the 14.717 GHz frequency might be beyond our ability to easily produce).
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:09 PM
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Also found this:
http://iopscience.iop.org/0963-0252/22/1/015010
13.56 MHz with ex situ electrodes. Apparently creates plasma and gives off light.

A red-shifted frequency from non-excited resonance frequency due to the now-lower resonant frequency caused by the cumulative O-H-O bond becoming longer under symmetrical stretching?
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:26 PM
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Ah, I understand now... Stan Meyer was targeting the short O-H bond because if you disrupt the inter-molecular O-O bond in the water dimer, it causes the hydrogen to bind even tighter to the oxygen.

And since the frequency to split that long O-H bond is close to the frequency to split the O-O dimer bond, he must not have wanted to take the chance of a harmonic frequency pushing the water molecules further apart, thereby making it more difficult to cleave the hydrogen from the oxygen.
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:56 PM
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Amazing what you can learn from Google... I now understand that we're attempting to replicate an MRI machine, but trying to push the energy states of the O-H bonds beyond their breaking points.

An MRI subjects the hydrogen in the water in our bodies to a strong magnetic field, then pulses an RF frequency to induce resonant vibrations, which can then be seen with the right equipment.

http://web.eecs.umich.edu/~dnoll/BME516/mri1.pdf
========================================
Quantum mechanical (QM) description of a spin in a magnetic field
With no applied magnetic field, all spins are in the same energy state (E=0). Their magnetic moments are randomly oriented and do not form any coherent magnetization. When placed in an applied magnetic field, the spin will tend to align with or opposite to the direction of the applied magnetic field. These two states are known as "spin up" and "spin down", respectively. The spin-up state (in alignment) is slightly preferred, and thus has a lower energy level. The spin-down state is at a higher energy. A spin-up nuclei can absorb energy and transition to a spin-down and a spin-down nuclei can give up energy and transition to a spin-up. These energy states are similar to electron energies in a neon atom, except here there are only two possible energy states.

If we inject energy into this system (excite the system) at a frequency f0, we should be able to induce spin-flip transitions between the two energy states. This system is very selective to that specific energy level - higher and lower frequencies won't work. Excitation must be at this specific frequency in order to "resonate" with the nuclei - this frequency selectivity is the origin of the term resonance in nuclear magnetic resonance.
========================================

But it can't be a static magnetic field, that just tends to increase the O-O dimer distance, thereby increasing O-H bonding strength. What we need is a pulsating magnetic field... and I'm betting that if we used neodymium magnets arranged in a Parallel Path (ala Joe Flynn) arrangement, with a magnetic short-circuit that had a coil on it, then we pulsed that coil at one of the resonant frequencies of the short O-H bond, we'd see some pretty impressive dissociation rates.

See the .PNG attached image...
Water Splitter.jpg

(EDIT):
Errmm... that only shows a thumbnail, it should be much larger. So, I've attached a .PDF, as well.

Essentially, it uses Parallel Path flux paths to multiply the magnetic flux... note the two flux paths on each side of the water tank are tied together via a common flux path for even more flux strength enhancement through the water tank.

Note the flux path "short circuits" where the coils are... both coils would be pulsed on and off together. When the coils are on, the flux seeks the easiest path, so it must try to go through the water tank. When the coils are off, the flux goes through the "short circuit" path. We don't need to hit the coils with a lot of current, just enough to force the flux path to seek the alternate path through the water tank. That amount would have to be arrived at empirically. We're just 'steering' the magnetic flux with the coils.

If we could find a way to harvest the back-EMF from this (it should be quite substantial), the coils wouldn't take a lot to run. Set it up as a "joule ringer" type circuit that rings the current back and forth (ala LaserSaber):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qxLwow3gZA
and it should ring at the resonant short O-H frequency for a long time without much current input.

Note the biasing plates... we'd apply a DC voltage to them (voltage being predicated upon the distance between the plates) just below the dissociation threshold. This would allow the hydrogen and oxygen to migrate away from each other after the magnetic flux has resonantly ripped them apart, and would help in getting the O-H bond right up to the breaking point prior to hitting it with the magnetic flux.

This would be for a pure-water splitter, no electrolyte. The water tank would have to be small, in order to keep the magnetic flux through it high... but if high dissociation rates can be achieved, a small size would be a plus.

Now I'm scared of MRIs... one glitch and they can turn the water in your body into H and hydroxide ions. Heh.

One thing that would have to be worked out is how to "cap" those free ends of the flux paths (at each end of the device) so there's no flux leakage via that route.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Water Splitter.pdf (15.3 KB, 15 views)
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Last edited by Cycle; 11-27-2014 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 11-27-2014, 12:38 AM
MasterBlaster MasterBlaster is offline
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New information

I hope you can make use of this in your research:

Molecular Dynamics Study of Orientational Cooperativity in Water

[cond-mat/0510646v1] Molecular Dynamics Study of Orientational Cooperativity in Water
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Old 11-27-2014, 01:41 AM
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Thank you, MasterBlaster. I'll put that in the queue of things I'm reading.

The only way I can think of to cap off that potential magnetic flux leak at each end of the machine is to make that a second magnetic flux "short circuit" route, with a coil, so there'd be 4 coils and 4 magnets. Depending upon the magnetic saturation limits of your flux paths, you could conceivably have more than 4 magnets, though.
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Old 11-27-2014, 04:11 AM
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Being a complete water dissociation newbie, I've just gone off my couple months of research and some (I hope) common sense for all the gibberish above.

Can someone with a deep understanding of water dissociation review what I've written and poke holes in it? I'm dying to know if something like this would actually work.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:19 AM
MasterBlaster MasterBlaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
Can someone with a deep understanding of water dissociation review what I've written and poke holes in it? I'm dying to know if something like this would actually work.
You would be wrong to think such persons exist. With your comment you are going to attract many people who will divert you from your own thinking to no man's land.

This might seem basic to you but take a look:

K8 Electro-

Also pay a visit to alexpetty.com

DO YOUR OWN THING.


M
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Old 11-27-2014, 07:18 PM
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Cycle keep at it, your going in the right direction

Your the first person I have seen to take the bull by the horns and look at what can be done with electro magnetic waves.

"AC" electro magnetic external field
High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes

regards

Mike
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:07 PM
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My brain keeps screaming at me something about a ring with coils, but I must be too sleep deprived to put it together. I'll get it eventually. I work midnight shift, so it's my bed time.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:53 PM
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I have no idea whether any of the below is apropos to the topic, but I decided to try a bit of divergent thinking while my brain ruminated on that 'metal ring with coils' thing. I have a huge honking headache, as often happens when my brain latches onto something and won't let go until it figures it out.

So, I just open Notepad, research, formulate ideas, write them down, and try to make sense of them. So here we go...

The fundamentals of the Yagi antenna...

A Yagi antenna has parasitic elements that help it to achieve gain (ie: electrical efficiency at converting input power to radio waves). There are inductive and capacitive elements.

One creates an inductive element by tuning its resonant frequency slightly above the target frequency. If the parasitic element is made inductive it is found that the induced currents are in such a phase that they reflect the power away from the parasitic element. The impedance of the reflector will be inductive. Hence, the current on the reflector lags the voltage induced on the reflector.

One creates a capacitive element by tuning its resonant frequency slight below the target frequency. If the parasitic element is made capacitive it will be found that the induced currents are in such a phase that they direct the power radiated by the whole antenna in the direction of the parasitic element.

The two types of elements 'heterodyne' at such a frequency that they create a 'traveling wave' at the target frequency. A very narrow-band antenna, and very directional, by design.

You'll note the frequencies I derived above:
The 0.948 angstrom (3.1624 ExaHertz) short O-H bond subharmonic of 15.812 KHz.

The 2.037 angstrom (1.4717 ExaHertz) long O-H bond subharmonic of 14.717 KHz.

Stan Meyer was using 15.920 KHz as one of his subharmonic frequencies.

(Short O-H Bond Frequency / Meyer Frequency) * 100 = 99.3216% of Meyer Frequency

This is almost the exact frequency, only 108 Hz off.

(Long O-H Bond Frequency / Meyer Frequency) * 100 = 92.4434% of Meyer Frequency

Is this how Meyer was able to keep current low while voltage was high? By inductive current lag via going just over the target frequency, then clamping off the electricity before current had a chance to rise?

Maybe his dissociation 'spark plug' was actually a tiny Yagi antenna tuned to the resonant subharmonic frequency of the O-H bond? If so, he'd have had to use another frequency just below the target frequency to arrive at the target frequency via a heterodyned 'traveling wave'. Or was the water itself the 'capacitive element' in this scenario?

Unfortunately, I'm no electrician... my father was, but after getting shocked one too many times with his long-wire antenna and other high-voltage stuff, I got gun-shy around electricity. So I'm a mechanic.

Can someone who knows more about this stuff please elucidate me as to whether I'm at least shooting in the right direction?

Ugh... head hurts. Gotta sleep.
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Old 11-29-2014, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Cycle keep at it, your going in the right direction:thumbsup:

Your the first person I have seen to take the bull by the horns and look at what can be done with electro magnetic waves.

"AC" electro magnetic external field
High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes

regards

Mike:cool:
Hi, Mike. Good to hear I'm not just off babbling in the wilderness, at least. I have almost no knowledge of this stuff, I'm just going off what I read and what seems to make sense, so I'm going to need a lot of help to get something like this realized.

I'll definitely be building a water splitter... it's on the 'to-do' list, so if I can work on it concurrently with waiting for my electronics guy to build my other projects and waiting for the engine parts to get back from fabrication, that'd be great. Of course, it'll all be completely open source... I have no delusions of getting rich off something like this... the likelihood of ending up dead or in prison is much greater, and I'd much rather avoid that.

As regards your "High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes" comment... that sounds like corona discharge. I'm going to be having one built for an ignition system on a small engine, so I've done lots of research on it.

But in the case of the water splitter, one way to perfectly time the pulsing of the magnetic field and the pulsing of DC voltage on the biasing plates is to add another coil on "The Gizmo". I'll call it the Biasing Coil.

You'll note in the top-view graphic (attached in .PNG and .PDF format) that opposite the water tank is a long magnetic flux path that connects the two permanent magnet banks when the coils are energized... but when they deenergize, the magnetic flux collapses as it goes through the shorter 'short circuit' paths. Adding a coil to that connecting flux path, putting the voltage through a voltage multiplier and full-wave rectifier and connecting that to the biasing plates in the water tank should provide the voltage needed, pulsed at twice the frequency that the magnetic flux is being pulsed at (one pulse when the magnetic field builds, one when it collapses). Thus we get the voltage on the biasing plates just when we need it (prior to the water being ripped apart by the resonating magnetic field) to stretch the O-H bonds to their limits, and (just after the magnetic field has collapsed) to help electrostatically separate the H and O so they can't recombine as easily.

If we were running at 15.812 MHz, that'd give us a pulse time of about 31.621 ns on the biasing plates. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get to that. We might have a hard time even making 15.812 KHz. That's a pulse time of 31621 ns on the biasing plates.

Anyway, I also attempted to "narrow" the flux path just as it comes into proximity with the water tank, to intensify the flux. Not sure if that's how it works, or if the flux will leak out the sides of those tapers.

As for what types of coils to use for the Flux Steering Coils, I'm researching that... toroidal, poloidal, starship, Helmholtz, bifilar series, bifilar reverse, etc. I'm looking for a coil that has a very intense magnetic field in its center (where the flux short circuit path would be), with little to no flux leakage and a high resonance frequency.

There are other considerations... for instance, do I need to oppose the permanent magnet flux at the full strength of the permanent magnets, or only strong enough to make the flux shift to the long path? When the permanent magnet flux is going through the long flux path, if the coils have lower flux strength than the permanent magnets, will some of the permanent magnet flux still leak back through the short circuit flux paths, despite the coils?

{EDIT: According to Paul Noel, the coils need ~1/4th the power of the permanent magnet array to 'steer' the magnetic flux.
Directory:FPPMT:Paul Noel - PESWiki
So for a 4 Tesla permanent magnet array, we'd need the coils to produce 10,000 Gauss each. Is that doable?}

I've sent out some emails to people who have done extensive magnet and electromagnet research. If they reply, it'll fill in some rather large gaps in my knowledge.

And my brain is still chewing on that "metal ring with coils" thing... almost like a Tokamak, but I can't see how you'd 'steer' the magnetic flux through two flux paths and thereby be able to use the static permanent magnet flux in a pulsing manner using something like that.

I also thought of what would essentially be a 'water motor'... a rapidly spinning magnetic field by steering the permanent magnet flux around in a circle via the two flux paths, with the water tank in the center... but I'm not so sure that'd have the desired effect upon the water molecules. Might just make them spin instead of dissociate.

I settled upon laminated silicon steel as the flux path, for its low hysteresis and eddy current losses. After all the particulars are worked out, I'll order the metal, create a template and have a bunch of them punched out at a metal shop, then laminate them with clear varnish or the like.

Today I learned that MRI machines use anywhere from 1.5 to 7 Tesla magnetic field strengths. It's difficult to build a coil that can produce that field strength, but permanent magnets can already be bought that top 1 T, and using Parallel Path can get us up even higher. So we're using weaker electromagnets to get stronger permanent magnets to do work for us.

Something like this should work well, with 4 of them in a Parallel Path arrangement:
K&J Magnetics - Products
Now, what measurement is used to determine its strength? Surface Field, or brMax? They say brMax can't be used because it would require no gap from the face of the magnet, but that's exactly what we'll have, zero gap between the magnet and flux paths.

Those magnets are about $960 each if you order 4 of them. So $3840 total. I've already spent more than that on this poor little scooter in parts fabrication and having the new electronics built. I'll likely spend that much again in more modifications.

That's about 4900 pounds of pulling force for 4 magnets... so I'll have to be extremely careful with them. Not even sure how I'd secure them... it's going to take a bit of engineering to avoid sticking things together and never getting them apart again, not to mention avoiding getting various body parts crushed.

The good thing about this Parallel Path setup is once the magnets are in their holders and surrounded by the flux path metal, there should be very little stray magnetic attraction outside the machine with the coils deenergized. The magnets have a built-in 'keeper' in those magnetic flux 'short circuit' paths... so no chairs flying across the room and sticking to it. Heh.

I'm going to contact Joe Flynn and see what he has to say. Maybe he can give me a nugget of info that'll help to get this thing started.

But before I go ordering stuff willy-nilly, let's work out that the thing will at least work like it should, and optimize the design of it.
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Old 11-30-2014, 03:57 AM
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Just had a thought... what if we used small Flux Steering Coils to switch flux from 1 T permanent magnets into and opposing the flux short circuit paths, which would then oppose the large magnets in the Parallel Path arrays. Then we'd only need each coil to produce ~2500 Gauss. That's definitely doable.

A cascaded Flux Steering setup, if you will. Not sure how to implement that, though... my brain is pretty much running on empty right now.
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Old 11-30-2014, 04:24 PM
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I just had another thought... this device can run dry without damaging it. I'm hoping that the gas production rate is so high that all one has to do is feed water into the tank in proportion to how much hydrogen and oxygen gas you need.

And a question for those of you who know more about magnetics than I do... is this calculation correct?

Let's say hypothetically that we do use those 1.4 Tesla magnets... 4 of them, 2 in each Parallel Path array. We know that Parallel Path gives ~3.5x the magnetic flux strength over a single magnet. And when the coils are energized, the two Parallel Path arrays will be in series, which is akin to stacking two magnets together.

((1.4 Tesla magnet) x ~3.5) x 2 = ~9.8 Tesla

Is that correct?!

Conversely, going by pull force:
K&J Magnetics - Magnet Calculator
((1,226.5 lb) x ~3.5) x 2 = 8,585.5 lb

Is that correct?

If so, we'd have enough magnetic force to overcome the inter-quark strong force of 2248.089 lb-f, as I outlined here.
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Old 11-30-2014, 06:41 PM
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This is how I'd wind the Flux Steering Coils:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGytW_C6hR8#t=295

But I'd go them one better... it'd essentially be a bifilar flat winding coil. Since the Flux Steering Coil electromagnets are small compared to the ones the people at the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory make, it wouldn't take long to build them once you got a template.
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Old 11-30-2014, 09:38 PM
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A much simplified version... more compact and probably easier to build.

This version has two water tanks, thus it should double gas production over the previous version. There are no potential flux leak paths on this version.

You'll note the light gray wrapped around the magnets... that's the flux 'short circuit' much like in the previous version, but with a twist. When the coils are energized, it magnetizes that flux 'short circuit', thereby allowing the permanent magnet's flux to flow out to the flux path, and thus to the water tanks.

All three Pulse Coils would be energized and deenergized at the same time.

So this version is using aspects of the Joe Flynn Parallel Path technology, as well as the Jack Hildenbrand flux shunt technology. The previous one did, as well, but the flux shunt wasn't integral to the magnet assembly.

As in the prior version, the Biasing Coils would generate a voltage from the building and collapsing magnetic field. That voltage would go through a voltage multiplier and full-wave rectifier, then be applied to the Biasing Plates in the water tanks. They'd pulse their DC to the Biasing Plates at twice the frequency of the Pulse Coils, but that'd still be a resonant frequency of the short O-H bond.

The advantages of this version:
1) When it's off, there should be no external magnetic flux, since it's all going through the wrapped shunts

2) It'd take very little energy to magnetize the flux shunts and thereby put magnetic flux onto the flux paths. This is sort of the Cascaded Flux Steering idea that I'd discussed previously.

3) Two water tanks means double gas production

4) You can add as many magnet/shunt/coil assemblies as your flux path can handle.

See the attached .PNG and .PDF files.
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Old 11-30-2014, 10:25 PM
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Point of departure?

A few posts back you were quoting Meyer.
I don't know if repeating his work is where you were heading.
At no point he mentioned magnetic manipulation as the key to his technique.

Are you heading a different direction?
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:24 AM
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More divergent thinking...

How does it work?: Magnetic resonance imaging
======================================
When additional energy (in the form of a radio wave) is added to the magnetic field, the magnetic vector is deflected. The radio wave frequency (RF) that causes the hydrogen nuclei to resonate is dependent on the element sought (hydrogen in this case) and the strength of the magnetic field.

Modern nmr spectrometers use powerful magnets having fields of 1 to 20 T. Even with these high fields, the energy difference between the two spin states is less than 0.1 cal/mole.

For nmr purposes, this small energy difference (deltaE) is usually given as a frequency in units of MHz, ranging from 20 to 900 MHz, depending on the magnetic field strength and the specific nucleus being studied.

Irradiation of a sample with radio frequency (rf) energy corresponding exactly to the spin state separation of a specific set of nuclei will cause excitation of those nuclei in the +1/2 state to the higher -1/2 spin state.



For spin 1/2 nuclei the energy difference between the two spin states at a given magnetic field strength will be proportional to their magnetic moments. For the four common nuclei noted above, the magnetic moments are: 1H μ = 2.7927, 19F μ = 2.6273, 31P μ = 1.1305 & 13C μ = 0.7022. These moments are in nuclear magnetons, which are 5.05078x10^-27 JT-1.

The following diagram gives the approximate frequencies that correspond to the spin state energy separations for each of these nuclei in an external magnetic field of 2.35 T. The formula in the colored box shows the direct correlation of frequency (energy difference) with magnetic moment (h = Planck's constant = 6.626069x10^-34 Js).


======================================
So, let's work out the math here:
v = (u * B0 / hI) * 5.05078e-27

u = 2.7927 nuclear magnetons
B0 = 2.35 Tesla
h = 6.626069e-34 Js
I = 0.5

((((2.7927 * 2.35) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

Hydrogen: 100.051738879 MHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in a 2.35 T magnetic field.

Let's look at what happens in Earth's magnetic field, with no other external magnetic field...

We'll take the Earth's magnetic field at its weakest (25 microTesla) and strongest (65 microTesla):

Weakest:
((((2.7927 * 2.5e-5) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

Strongest:
((((2.7927 * 6.5e-5) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

Hydrogen: 1.06438020084 KHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in Earth's magnetic field at its weakest spot.

Hydrogen: 2.76738852218 KHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in Earth's magnetic field at its strongest spot.

So the resonant frequency of the O-H bond is dependent upon the O-H bond length, which is dependent upon the hydrogen's proton spin relaxation, which is dependent upon the strength of the static magnetic field the proton is in because the static magnetic field forces the proton to give up energy.

That's why Stan Meyer was higher than my calculated resonant frequency... he'd weakened the O-H bond, which blue-shifted (raised) the resonant frequency... the same that the researchers found when they blue-shifted during their "Dynamics of Ultra-Fast Dissociation" experiments.

So we may have to come up with some means of making a waveform with which to pulse the coils that starts out at the calculated resonant frequency, and increases as the resonance adds energy, causes less proton spin relaxation, and thereby weakens the O-H bonds.

Wow... it's a good thing we're not going to try using a static magnetic field, then... that could get complicated. We're just going to hammer on the hydrogen via a resonantly pulsing magnetic field and resonantly pulsing voltage.

They both resonantly add energy to the proton until it undergoes deprotonation. The water molecule pukes a proton (alpha particle).

It should be noted here that under the right circumstances, proton emission leads to transmutation, as Ernest Rutherford proved when he transmuted nitrogen to oxygen and hydrogen in 1917 using alpha particle (proton) bombardment... I wonder what would happen if we bubbled air (78.084% nitrogen) through our water during dissociation, if some of the nitrogen would transmute into oxygen and hydrogen? Resonance-induced water dissociation is a rich environment for proton emission (that's sort of the underlying definition of resonance-induced water dissociation, after all), so it just may.

Anyway, the hydrogen nucleus (proton) immediately grabs another water molecule and forms H3O. So we're left with OH- (hydroxide) and H3O+ (hydronium).

All we're doing at this stage is increasing the ionization constant of water (the total concentration of OH- (alkaline) and H3O+ (acidic) in H2O). We're literally separating out the high pH and low pH components of water. That's why we need the voltage, to keep them electrostatically separated. Otherwise, they'll just recombine exothermically, heating up the water but otherwise not doing anything.

For electrolysis, the following takes place:
Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− = H2(g) + 2 OH−(aq)
Anode (oxidation): 4 OH−(aq) = O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−

We can disregard the Cathode (reduction) part, we're using resonance (in this case, magnetic and electrical) to make the nuclei puke a proton, thereby creating our hydroxide that way.

So in the end, we should be left with O2, 4 electrons, and H3O. Those 4 electrons then go on to create 2 H2 and 4 more OH-.

So the end gas should be a mix of O2, H2 and H3O.

I think. Chemistry was never my forte.

How do we dissociate the H3O? The same way as we dissociated the H2O... with resonance. Except this time, we use 7 KHz or thereabouts: http://fermi.uchicago.edu/publications/PDF/oka217.pdf

I think that's why Stan Meyer was using 7.960 KHz, to dissociate the H3O.


Side note: I learned *why* a static magnetic field strengthens the O-H bonds... NMR Spectroscopy
=======================================
A spinning charge generates a magnetic field. In the presence of an external magnetic field (B0), two spin states exist, +1/2 and -1/2. The magnetic moment of the lower energy +1/2 state is aligned with the external field, but that of the higher energy -1/2 spin state is opposed to the external field.
=======================================

So a strong static magnetic field forces the hydrogen nuclei to exit their higher energy 'spin down' state, give up energy and enter the lower energy 'spin up' state. In so doing, they shorten their bond with their oxygen atom because they're at a lower energy state, ie: greater proton spin relaxation.
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster View Post
A few posts back you were quoting Meyer.
I don't know if repeating his work is where you were heading.
At no point he mentioned magnetic manipulation as the key to his technique.

Are you heading a different direction?
The frequencies that Meyer used are a good starting point to what I'll be trying... resonance is resonance, whether you're adding energy to the hydrogen's proton via RF, voltage or magnetism.

Remember that the water molecule is both dipolar and diamagnetic... so voltage and magnetism can do work upon it. The trick in my case is to get a strong enough magnetic flux, and 'steer' that magnetic flux at a resonant frequency, efficiently enough that it's worthwhile.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:38 PM
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We need a feedback mechanism, something that can tell us what the resonant frequency of the short O-H bond is.

An MRI machine does it by picking up and amplifying the RF that the proton gives off as its spin state relaxes after excitation. Since they're hitting the hydrogen atom and its proton with MHz frequency, that doesn't give it a lot of time to relax.

I think (and correct me if I'm off base here) the *reason* x-ray radiation is so effective at dissociating water is that it never gives the proton a chance to spin down.

Think of a swing set on springs instead of chains, with a resonant frequency of, say, 3162.4 swings-per-minute being akin to a proton with a resonant frequency of 3.1624 ExaHertz. At that speed, it'll fly apart. We also have to assume that the frictional drag of the swing set is somewhat akin to the proton spinning down. And we have to assume that it has a 'relaxed' state as a proton does, a minimum spin speed. We'll assume that to be 1471.7 swings-per-minute for the swing set, akin to the 1.4717 ExaHertz of the long O-H bond.

Now, if we were to give that swing set a push at a resonant subharmonic of, say, 3.1624 Hz, or once every 1000 swings, it'd give the swing set plenty of time to 'spin down', in the parlance of a proton. It might even reach its relaxation state if we didn't impart enough energy to it with each 'push'.

Let's go up to 31.624 Hz, or once every 100 swings. Now we don't have to push it as hard each time to keep it swinging above its rest state, because the swing has less time to 'spin down' between pushes.

Let's go up to 316.24 Hz, or once every 10 swings. Same thing, it'll 'spin down' less between each 'push', and the average swing 'width' will remain more steady.

Let's go all the way up to 3162.4 Hz. We give the swingset *no* chance to 'spin down'. We're adding energy resonantly each and every time.

Now, it gets complicated in the case of a proton, because if we're "pushing" it at that frequency, and that's not the spin speed of the proton, we're actually pushing *against* the proton some of the time... akin to not pushing the swing just as it reaches its apogee. If we're hitting it with enough energy and we get lucky and hit it at just the right time, we get it to its highest resonant frequency. Then it's a quick "one-more-push" to break it apart, but the rest of the time, we're wasting energy.

If we can push at just the right frequency, we add energy resonantly. If not, we're detracting from the energy we've already added, and if we're not adding enough energy with each 'push' we may never reach that point that makes the water molecule puke a proton, undergo deprotonation.

So, we have to measure somehow what the spin speed of the proton is. An MRI does it by measuring the frequency and converting that to an image.

We have to figure out how to do the same, but we don't have to create an image as an MRI does, we just have to use it to keep adding energy resonantly.

Another take-away from this is that if we're hitting it with lower subharmonic frequencies, we've got to hit it at the right time *and* with enough energy to spin that proton all the way up, compounding the complications of splitting the water.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:21 AM
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Can someone please translate this for me? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this, for some reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit)
=========================
1 tesla is equivalent to:
42.6 MHz of the 1H nucleus frequency, in NMR. Thus a 1 GHz NMR magnetic field is 23.5 teslas.
=========================

{EDIT}
Ah, that's the Larmor Frequency... and it should be 42.576 MHz/Tesla for Hydrogen.

I've been researching this, and found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromagnetic_ratio
In physics, the gyromagnetic ratio (also sometimes known as the magnetogyric ratio in other disciplines) of a particle or system is the ratio of its magnetic dipole moment to its angular momentum, and it is often denoted by the symbol γ, gamma. Its SI unit is the radian per second per tesla (rads−1T -1) or, equivalently, the coulomb per kilogram (Ckg−1).

The gyromagnetic ratio of a nucleus is particularly important because of the role it plays in nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). These procedures rely on the fact that bulk magnetization due to nuclear spins precess in a magnetic field at a rate called the Larmor frequency, which is simply the product of the gyromagnetic ratio with the magnetic field strength.

So what we're trying to do is hit the ferromagnetic resonance of the Larmor Frequency for hydrogen. While hydrogen doesn't exhibit classical ferromagnetic properties, it still has a ferromagnetic resonance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetic_resonance
The basic setup for an FMR experiment is a microwave resonant cavity with an electromagnet. The resonant cavity is fixed at a frequency in the super high frequency band. A detector is placed at the end of the cavity to detect the microwaves. The magnetic sample is placed between the poles of the electromagnet and the magnetic field is swept while the resonant absorption intensity of the microwaves is detected. When the magnetization precession frequency and the resonant cavity frequency are the same, absorption increases sharply which is indicated by a decrease in the intensity at the detector.

So basically, we're spinning up the proton by hitting its resonant frequency that corresponds to the short O-H bond, then trying to get the proton to precess *so* much that it deprotonates. In so doing, we sharply increase its absorption cross section, making the process more efficient.

Note that the Larmor Frequency for hydrogen (42.576 MHz per Tesla) is very close to John Keely's stated 42.8 KHz subharmonic.

So to be more effective at breaking the water molecule apart, we should be hitting the water with magnetic flux at the Larmor Frequency (or a subharmonic), and hitting it with voltage pulses at the short O-H bond resonant frequency (or a subharmonic).

That'll get the proton spinning as fast as possible, lengthening the O-H bond. The magnetic flux will make it precess so much that it breaks.

I think... I'm stretching the boundaries of my knowledge here. It'd be great if someone with more knowledge than I have could comment.
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:03 AM
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Let's dive a bit deeper into the physical structure of a proton to see if there are any weaknesses we can exploit... this probably won't help us any, but I want to archive it here for future reference, just in case I stumble across something that looks promising, so I don't have to go digging back through tons of research on a bunch of different websites. You can most likely safely ignore this post.

There are quarks and there are gluons that make up a proton.

The quark is the elementary particle, while the gluon is the "glue" that holds those elementary particles together.

The quark:
========================================
There are two types of quark: quarks and anti-quarks.
They come in six flavors: up, down, top, bottom, charmed and strange.
They also come in six colors: red, blue, green, anti-red (cyan), anti-blue (yellow) and anti-green (magenta).

Usually only up and down quarks exist... the others only come about from high-energy collisions and decay to up and down quarks.

Quarks have two states of spin:
+1/2
-1/2

Up and down quarks have two charge values:
up quarks have electric charge of +2/3
down quarks have electric charge of -1/3

Anti-quarks have opposite charges to their corresponding quarks.
========================================

The gluon:
========================================
Gluons come in eight different colors based upon six color types:
red, blue, green, anti-red (cyan), anti-blue (yellow) and anti-green (magenta)

red|magenta
red|yellow
green|cyan
green|yellow
blue|cyan
blue|magenta
red|cyan + blue|yellow
red|cyan + green|magenta - 2blue|yellow

There's a ninth if we try to do normal color mixing:
red|cyan + blue|yellow + green|magenta
but since its color combination results in neutral, it cannot exist.

I have no idea why there can be:
red|cyan + green|magenta - 2blue|yellow
but not:
red|cyan + blue|yellow - 2green|magenta
green|magenta + blue|yellow - 2red|cyan

It gets very complicated very quickly, and I have enough problem with numerical addition and subtraction, let alone color addition and subtraction. Heh.
========================================

Ok, moving on...

A proton (a baryon hadron fermion) consists of three valence quarks (two up quarks (each with electric charge of +2/3) and one down quark (with electric charge of -1/3)), which is why a proton has a net electric charge of +1.

What happens when we break that structure?

Well, that's not easy to do, I found out. The inter-quark strong force is 137 times stronger than electromagnetism. The strong force doesn't diminish with distance, it actually gets stronger up to a point, then it stays steady at about 10,000 Newtons at greater distances. That's about 2248.089 lb-f. So it's a strong force. Perplexingly, it gets weaker the closer together the quarks are... it's hypothesized that inside the proton, the quarks are essentially 'free'... but try ripping a quark out of the proton, and that strong force strengthens and either pulls the quark back, pulls a quark from another proton, or manufactures a new quark from the vacuum.

We could use temperature to free the quarks... if we could produce a temperature of two trillion degrees Kelvin (36,000,000,000 F). Anyone have a particle accelerator? They can make 7 trillion degrees now.

We can change the quark's flavor:


An up quark can become a down quark, strange quark or bottom quark.
A down quark can become an up quark, charmed quark or top quark.

How do we convert quarks to different flavors?

Well, there are two ways (two vertices), Charged Current Interaction and Neutral Current Interaction:
==================================
There are two types of weak interaction (called vertices). The first type is called the "charged-current interaction" because it is mediated by particles that carry an electric charge (the W+ or W− bosons), and is responsible for the beta decay phenomenon. The second type is called the "neutral-current interaction" because it is mediated by a neutral particle, the Z boson.

In one type of charged current interaction, a charged lepton (such as an electron or a muon, having a charge of −1) can absorb a W+ boson (a particle with a charge of +1) and be thereby converted into a corresponding neutrino (with a charge of 0).
==================================
We're not going to get into bosons and leptons... my brain can only hold so much for one day. The takeaway is that the strong force preserves quark color and flavor... so the inner workings of a proton are pretty much indestructible. At least under the conditions that we can subject it to.

But I will note this for future reference:
Weak interaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The weak interaction is unique in that it allows for quarks to swap their flavour for another. For example, during beta minus decay, a down quark decays into an up quark, converting a neutron to a proton. In addition, the weak interaction is the only fundamental interaction that breaks parity-symmetry, and similarly, the only one to break CP-symmetry.

So there's a way to break the inner workings of the proton, but it involves essentially nuclear changes, something the average layman isn't capable of. Yet.

Imagine the energy that could be obtained if we could figure out how to split the proton. Orders of magnitude more than splitting the atom. Because mass is, after all, just condensed energy. And it takes a lot of energy to generate a little mass... or conversely, a little mass to generate a lot of energy.

{EDIT:}
No, scratch the above paragraph... splitting the proton won't result in a release of energy:
Re: How much power would result from splitting a proton?
Re: What happens when you split a proton, neutron, or electron?
{/EDIT}

Now that we've delved into Quantum Electrodynamics and Quantum Chromodynamics, I find that there's even Sub Quantum Chromodynamics, which discusses the Creation Particle Higgs (CPH), of which supposedly *everything* is made.

Whew! This is a steep learning curve just to split water!

An interesting tidbit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
Hadrons, however, are not composed of just three or two quarks, because of the strength of the strong force. More accurately, strong force gluons have enough energy (E) to have resonances composed of massive (m) quarks (E > mc2).

What does that "E > mc2" mean?

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon
At a large enough distance, it becomes energetically more favorable to pull a quark-antiquark pair out of the vacuum rather than increase the length of the flux tube.

"out of the vacuum"?

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadronization
In particle physics, hadronization (or hadronisation) is the process of the formation of hadrons out of quarks and gluons. This occurs after high-energy collisions in a particle collider in which free quarks or gluons are created. Due to postulated colour confinement, these cannot exist individually. In the Standard Model they combine with quarks and antiquarks spontaneously created from the vacuum to form hadrons.

Hmmm... so literally creating matter from energy... in this case, what can only be described as Zero Point Energy or that sea of entropied energy that washes throughout the universe? If energy can come from the vacuum to create matter, then why is practically every scientist out there saying that energy can't be pulled from the vacuum and used to do work?

For the record, a hadron is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
Hadrons are categorized into two families: baryons (such as protons and neutrons, made of three quarks) and mesons (such as pions, made of one quark and one antiquark).

And another bit of archivery for potential future use:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
In other phases of matter the hadrons may disappear. For example, at very high temperature and high pressure, unless there are sufficiently many flavors of quarks, the theory of quantum chromodynamics (QCD) predicts that quarks and gluons will no longer be confined within hadrons, "because the strength of the strong interaction diminishes with energy". This property, which is known as asymptotic freedom, has been experimentally confirmed in the energy range between 1 GeV (gigaelectronvolt) and 1 TeV (teraelectronvolt).
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:33 PM
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Ok, so now we know going the nuclear route isn't going to net us much... let's try the chemical route. What can we build into the machine or add to the water to increase deprotonaton efficiency?

1) Magnesium Hexahydrate Ions
Deprotonation of Water in the Presence of Carboxylate and Magnesium Ions
In the hexahydrate Mg[H2O]6^2+ the free energy required to deprotonate one coordinated water molecule is only 40% of that required to deprotonate a free water molecule, indicating that the presence of the magnesium ion facilitates the ionization of water.

2) Zinc
9.2.2. Catalysis Entails Zinc Activation of Water
Zinc facilitates the release of a proton from a water molecule, which generates a hydroxide ion.

3) Carbonic Anhydrases
Section 9.2 Making a Fast Reaction Faster: Carbonic Anhydrases
Less than 10 years after the discovery of carbonic anhydrase in 1932, this enzyme was found to contain bound zinc, associated with catalytic activity.
Direct measurements reveal that this water molecule has a pKa value of 8.7, not as low as the value for the water molecule in carbonic anhydrase but substantially lower than the value for free water.

4) Pyridine and manganese oxide
Regulating proton-coupled electron transfer for efficient water splitting by manganese oxides at neutral pH
Pyridine and its derivatives, which have pKa values intermediate to the water ligand bound to manganese(II) and manganese(III), are used as proton-coupled electron transfer induction reagents. The induction of concerted proton-coupled electron transfer is demonstrated by the detection of deuterium kinetic isotope effects.

5) phosphomolybdate anions
Split water splitting raises green hydrogen hopes
Of the polyoxometalates they tried, phosphomolybdate anions, [H2PMo12O40]-, worked best. In one instance, we stored our reduced and protonated ECPB for eight months before we re-oxidised it to liberate hydrogen, Cronin notes. But splitting the reaction into two steps imposes an energy penalty, making it 87% as efficient as the one step reaction, at best.

6) Sodium hydride and potassium hydride
Deprotonation
Hydrides are one of the many types of powerful deprotonating agents. Common hydrides used are sodium hydride and potassium hydride. The hydride forms hydrogen gas with the proton from the other molecule.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:08 AM
MasterBlaster MasterBlaster is offline
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Nature

I don't agree with most of new developments in nuclear theory. I am not a nuclear engineer but I believe nature works in much simpler ways. You could come up with your own theories and if you get the government to throw money at it then your theories will be taught in universities!

Why I am trying to say is follow your own instinct.

Above you made a comment with "137" in it this always gets my attention.
I don't know if you are aware of the significance of 137. If you don't, you may start here:
God's Number of Creation - 137 and 7
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:33 PM
Cycle Cycle is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 35
A completely off-the-wall thought...

Toroidal coils can create plasma. I found a YouTube video of one doing so a while back, but I can't find it now.

Has anyone tried creating a toroidal coil, pulsing it at the resonant frequency of water to generate a plasma, and putting the water container inside the torus so it's in the plasma stream?

The problems we would have with devices as outlined in my rough drawings is magnetic leakage, switching at a high enough frequency, magnetic flux saturation of the flux path metal, and heating of the Flux Steering Coils because they'd have to have a lot of current pushed through them to steer the magnetic flux, then they'd have a lot of current pushed out of them when that magnetic flux collapsed.

Inside a toroidal coil, we have the resonant frequency easily, since it's an air core. We have an intense magnetic field due to the design of the toroidal coil. And we'd have a plasma with unknown effects upon the water.

Remember, the protons in the hydrogen atoms in the water molecules are effected by magnetism, which is why Nuclear Magnetic Resonance imaging (MRI) works. We just have to figure out how to efficiently resonantly add energy to the protons until they deprotonate. Since water ionizes and dissociates simultaneously, deprotonation means dissociation of the water.
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