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  #1  
Old 11-07-2011, 11:26 PM
diesel diesel is offline
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water wheel power

Hi all. I am exploring the idea of building a 6kw water wheel gererator on our farm. I am looking for a 6kw permanent magnet generator that uses a low rpm. I have searched the net but can't find anything suitable. If anyone could recommend a company that supplies these motors, or with any suggestions in building a water wheel, I would really appreciate it.

Best reagrds
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:41 AM
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Bizzy Bizzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel View Post
Hi all. I am exploring the idea of building a 6kw water wheel gererator on our farm. I am looking for a 6kw permanent magnet generator that uses a low rpm. I have searched the net but can't find anything suitable. If anyone could recommend a company that supplies these motors, or with any suggestions in building a water wheel, I would really appreciate it.

Best reagrds
Hi diesel

I never worked with a water wheel only windmills and alternators but the principle is the same. in the end you are turning a rotor of magnets over a set of coils. Only instead of wind you are using water as a method of moving the rotor...
if you google "hugh piggot windmills" you will find some great sources on homemade windmill alternators. He had a s site and I was going to provide a link but it seems to be down.
However there are still alot of diagrams out there.In addition if you can find his book I highly recommend it! The book is well worth the moeny if you are serious about building a windmill or alternator.
In my experience in building homemade alternators I am certain you could adapt it to you application. Feel free to post any more questions you have on the subject.
Good luck
Bizzy
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Old 11-08-2011, 05:44 PM
nueview nueview is offline
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Wind Turbine PMG PMA,PM Generator Alternator,Grid Tie Connected Inverter,Ginlong Technologies,PV Solar

these are the best generators i could find for my windmill project they are low rpm and little to no cogging and have good power levels at low rpm.
we are getting 300watts at 10 mph and almost full power at 22 mph. with 1500 watt generator.

as for water wheels there are different ways to go but there was a vortex spin generator made in england that i would look into i do not have a link for it but it is low head pressure.
if there is enough flow flume wheels work well also as the diameter and width can give large low rpm high torque.
Martin
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:15 PM
diesel diesel is offline
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Thanks for your replies. I was thinking again about it and I am going to build a dam and water wheel first and do my calulations then to what generator I can power.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:41 AM
nueview nueview is offline
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if you do a flume wheel you might want to check with your local power company as they have some great metal spools for underground shielding and they make great water wheels for a flume setup.
just adjust the width and add paddle boards and add an axle and you are ready to go.
martin
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Old 11-10-2011, 10:31 PM
diesel diesel is offline
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You don't have to build a dam and a waterwheel. You can pipe water from the source to another location and set up a turbine then return the water to its source. It will save you many hours of work and will let you build a turbine at any location. A turbine is easier to build from commonly avaailble materials. You can use any modern aluminum truck wheel and make sections from aluminum plates. Surround this with an aluminum cover and you are ready. You can mount a wheel on any kind of shaft and bearing system. Also, using a turbine this way, you can put a shutoff in the pipe that feeds the turbine to do maintenance on it. And, you won't have to stand in the creek to work on it. If you need any more information, just let me know. Good Luck. stealth
Hi Stealth, thank you for your reply. I would really appreciate it if you could send me more information anything to make like easier.
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Old 11-10-2011, 10:46 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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hello

i have invented to my knowalage one of the best water turbines built ..
dont get me wrong IM NOT BOASTING ....

i just have played with many toys ..

use my turbine and hpg's

i have a compleate design this was designed when i did it to produce 10 000 amps at 12vdc .. to drive invertors ..

here is my turbine

Filsinger Turbine - YouTube

william
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:55 AM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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I like micro hydro very much, for those who have moving water on their property. Its great to see new inventions like the above turbine.

For those without the mechanical ability, maybe its time to check this one out again: A village in Thailand who used a standard induction motor and shallow well pump "run backwards" as a turbine and generator to make up to 3 kW of usable power (with a three inch pipe and 10 feet/ 3.2 M of fall).

http://www.palangthai.org/docs/HKTmi...dro19Feb06.pdf
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:53 AM
nueview nueview is offline
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this is a discussion that could go on with no good end in view.
if you have a stream that can give you 10,000 psi pressure build the water turbine.
or if your creak has 50 meters of head water height and 1.5 liter per second of flow go for it but if it is the standard creak stick with the flume wheel.
there is a reason Louis the 14th has been claimed a great engineer for pumping 1 million gallons of water a day into paris from the seign river.

without this engineering feet large cities would never have industrialized.
nor the east coast of the US.

if you raise the water flow by restricting it by 4 inches you increase3 its velocity several times and velocity and weight equals power.
a ginlong generator will give 1.5kw power out at 600 rpm a four foot radius flume wheel will have quit a bit of torque. depending on creak size and flow rate.

if you have some head height look at a vortex pond for power generation these produce the best power output for the size and volume of water.
remember power is developed by mass velocity.
Martin
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:19 AM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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use a ram pump in the river large volume to a small diamiter nozzel .. and watch my turbine spinn...

W

do some math 30 lbs at as showen 25 000 rpm .. how many hp ?

1800 watt pressure washer .. generators have 0 back torque i worked on this design 4 years ..

just thought i would show yas l8r
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
I like micro hydro very much, for those who have moving water on their property. Its great to see new inventions like the above turbine.

For those without the mechanical ability, maybe its time to check this one out again: A village in Thailand who used a standard induction motor and shallow well pump "run backwards" as a turbine and generator to make up to 3 kW of usable power (with a three inch pipe and 10 feet/ 3.2 M of fall).

http://www.palangthai.org/docs/HKTmi...dro19Feb06.pdf
I may be not understanding this correctly.
Are you saying he only needs 10 feet of head pressure? The link says they had over 50 meters of head pressure. 27" = 1 psi so i don't see how a pump would run backwards at enough speed unless the pressure was as high or higher than the rated PSI (that pump looked to be about a 30-50 psi pump). it would have to have at least 70 feet of head water pressure (fall).
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:06 PM
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Here is a company using neo magnets in there permanant magnet generators.

ALXION Automatique&Productique
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Old 11-12-2011, 03:10 AM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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Roland now that you mention it, it doesn't actually say what the fall is, only mentions distance runs.

"The final choice did require considerable civil works: a 5-meter deep trench through about 30 meters of hillside, and an extended pipe elevation section for 50 meters that also crossed over the stream"

I remember another installation with that kind of fall from a YouTube, in West Virginia... that's probably where i got the 10 feet. Total flow would be equally important.. since it is possible to increase pressure by funneling down the pipe diameter.
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:37 AM
Roland Roland is offline
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..since it is possible to increase pressure by funneling down the pipe diameter.
This part is not correct. Pressure can not increase (above the the head pressure) by changing pipe diameters. The depth dictates the maximum pressure period. The pressure can only decrease from the max pressure. It does so when the water is moving thought pipes, etc.

So if the pump needs 30 psi to spin the correct rpm, the head pressure HAS to be a minimum of 70 feet.
(like you say the flow rate has to be adequate also, but if the flow was not adequate, the pressure would not be 30 psi ether)

I'll add that velocity on the other hand, does increase when pipe size is decreased, and when velocity increases, pressure has to decrease...
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:49 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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take a jet sky throw it in the river and pump some water ... ram it out a nozzel .... run the damm thing on hho ... lol


or

i have designed floating dock water wheels that are capable of turning a car alt!


they use the current of the river .. and there can be magnets on the wheel and a coil or 2 to power the alt....

so many ways ... i quit playing with it ...

W
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:25 PM
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Hi folks,

I just bought a country property of 22 acres which has a stream that winds through it for a total of about 2,000 feet. This was definitely a factor in buying the property, and I do intend to make use of this stream to produce energy. Here's a satellite image of the property:



My property is the somewhat triangular shaped parcel to the left of the vertical yellow eastern boundary line. As you can see, the stream enters the property at the bottom of that yellow line, where there is a bridge. The stream is fed by a large bog that collects water runoff from two nearby mountains. There is very little elevation change of the stream (roughly 5 feet of difference at most) as it courses through the property. The widest portion (near the point where it leaves the property at the north end) is about 60 feet across, and the narrowest portion is about 6 feet across. Shortly after leaving my property, it joins with another branch and becomes a Class A whitewater run that is frequented by kayakers and rafters. I'm sure that there will be a lot of water running through my stream during spring runoff, when the snow melts from the mountains, but right now the movement appears fairly slow except in the portions where the stream narrows down and/or shallows out. I'll be moving to the property in December, and will walk the length of the stream at that time to take some photos and video of the portions that appear to offer the best potential for water power. Winters can be harsh here in Maine, and while I'd love to install a water wheel in the stream I am wondering if the flow rate would be sufficient to keep the wheel turning rather than freezing up. If not, then I'll have to devise another method, as it would be pure folly to let such a resource go unutilized.

I'm really enthused about this new property, as it opens up so many possibilities to make use of renewable energy resources. Once I have a good idea of the water resources potential, and have some photos to show, I will come back in here and offer some ideas that I hope to implement. I'll be glad to entertain any suggestions you folks may have, and I thank you in advance.

Rick
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Last edited by rickoff; 11-13-2011 at 06:02 PM. Reason: replaced original photo with better view
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:57 AM
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Hi Rick
ok here is an actual project as an actual problem so lets look it over.
the first thing you will need to do is find out if there are any waterway laws you will have to meet or satisfy, such as restricting fish migration or stream enviromental impact rules for the location. here in alaska were i live it generally costs about $100,000 and about five years just to get through this process and the fine for putting something in a stream without permits can be $50,000 so do check this out first.
as for streams freezing you would be surprized how little it can take to stop this from occuring even just a plastic shed can stop water moving at a good speed from freezing over.
as for it being runoff from a swamp you would be supprized but it could have better runoff in the winter than in the summer as swamps have decaying vegetation and generate allot of heat even though it may not seem like it.
watching the stream banks can tell you allot about the stream flow the higher the banks the more the maximum run off and the creak bed look at the size of the rocks in the shallow areas and the sediment in the deeper areas.
with a low head of the creak restricting the flow at a portion could be easy to do for a flume wheel without altering the overall stream dynamics and fish gates or doors can be built so fish migration is not impeded either.
the next major thing you need to know is the stream volume and velocity.
you will need to find a narrow section that is not to deep were the water flows fairly fast and through a stick in up stream and get a speed such as feet/second or the like then get a cross sectional area and you will have a good idea of calculating the stream volumefor power generation.
seeing as you say there is about 2000 foot of stream length several flume wheels could be installed say one every 500 foot or even 250 foot depending on the total demand needed.
just some things for you to think about before you start.
Martin
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Old 11-13-2011, 07:23 AM
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Hi Martin, and thanks for your thoughts. Under Maine law, any proposal to place a mechanism within a stream for the purpose of generating electrical or mechanical power will require a Hydropower permit obtained from the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. After browsing through some of the permitting factors, I find that it probably won't be all that difficult to obtain a permit for a water wheel project. Three guideline factors for issuance of permits definitely in my favor are the following:
  • Interest of riparian owners: Recognize and respect the rightful interests of riparian owners (land owners with property abutting a stream).
  • Increase hydroelectric power: Increase the hydroelectric power available to replace foreign oil in the State.
  • Hydropower development: Streamline procedures to facilitate hydropower development under reasoned environmental, technical and public safety constraints.
It would appear that the State legislature is all for promoting hydropower projects, stating that, "Hydropower is presently the State’s most significant indigenous resource that can be used to free our citizens from their extreme dependence on foreign oil for peaking power." The Legislature further declares that, "it is the policy of the State to support and encourage the development of hydropower projects by simplifying and clarifying requirements for permits, while assuring reasonable protection of natural resources and the public interest in use of waters of the State."

Since a water wheel will not alter the water level, or restrict the flow of water or fish in the stream, it seems like a winner for easy permitting. Historical considerations may also benefit me. In the earlier years of the town there were many water wheels set up on the streams to power farm equipment and mills.

Incidentally, the bog that I spoke of earlier which feeds the stream is one and one half miles long, and a half mile wide at its widest point, and has ten streams feeding into it. Thus, it doesn't seem likely that my stream, which is the outlet from the bog, would go dry at any time of year.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:24 PM
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OK Rick
it sounds like your state is more receptive to hydro power than Alaska.
now as for the marine life some fish will go were there is very little water and some won't so there needs to be some alternate route for them one down low and one up high as some fish will not go under an item and some won't go over either way most fish look for the main channel to travel and to get the best performance out of a flume wheel it needs to appear to be the main channel.
if the flume channel has the stream restricted so it raises the flow by 1 inch the velocity of the water through the flume will almost double at this point.
the flume wheel should be about 6 foot in diameter minimum and the channel should fit relatively close to the wheel and it should have some weight this gives the wheel carry over for torque when running at speed so better performance and more steady power with load shifts.
it is also a good idea to include some form of gate at the flume entrance so that the flow can be shut down for any maintenance a brake is unreliable and a dangerous situation as flume wheels can have very high torque ratings and diverting the flow is much safer in combination with a brake.
you can now figure your brake torque rating and i would size my generator just a bit larger.
i have used Gin long generators on windmills and they are a good product both as grid tie units and for battery charging as well with a flume wheel you might want to consider a clutched system with two types of generators one for charging a bank of batteries and a second that can be grid tied so when the battery bank is full the excess power can be sold back to the grid this is preferable to no return on investment or waisting the potential power.
but either way at that point is is your consideration.
Martin

PS you may want to check with the local state biologist about the local marine life habits as it is always better to ask first and avoid the hassles.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:47 PM
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Might be a good idea to take a look at Viktor Schauberger and Ludwig Herbrands work - especily the following article, which covers the important bits: The Josef Hasslberger page: Technology

The following is a quote from the linked article:
Quote:
We can see from the above statistical tables that 45 m/sec of velocity are equivalent to an altitude differential of more than 100 meters. And assuming that we have a flow of water of 10 cbm/sec, we can predict (at v = 45 m/sec) an energy output of 10 megawatt. This is a considerable amount of power and it can be obtained almost anywhere along the normal course of a river, without the costly and environmentally questionable practice of constructing a dam and a man made lake to obtain 100 meters of altitude differential.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:46 PM
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I replaced the satellite image in post #18 with a 2009 view taken in late October. It is a sharper image with better lighting, and affords a better view of the stream since most tree leaves have fallen at this point in time.

I am thinking that perhaps my first step should be to obtain a permit to build a bridge across the stream at a narrow section not far from my homestead. I think this would be readily approved, since the major portion of my woodlot lies to the east of the stream, and access to the woodlot can only be had by crossing the stream. I'd want a bridge wide enough that I could drive a tractor across it, and a covered bridge would be preferable in order to protect the platform and underlying timbers from deterioration, since one cannot use pressure treated lumber for a bridge crossing a stream due to the probability of the preservative chemicals leaching into the water. I think that such a bridge could also be seen as a positive development to the public, since it would offer a pathway for snowmobiles and ATV's, as well as hikers, to safely cross the stream.

Once the bridge is in place, it would not be all that difficult to suspend a waterwheel from it, and this would prevent the need to alter the stream bed, which is an important consideration to the State DEP. Once you consider any plans to alter the stream bed by dredging or filling below the high water level of the stream then the permitting becomes far more complicated. I do have connections with the water quality and waterway regulatory folks at DEP, having worked more than 30 years as a volunteer water quality monitor and data aquisition coordinator, and am also familiar with biologists at the fisheries and wildlife department, so this will be helpful in determining what my possibilities and opportunities are.

Rick
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Old 11-14-2011, 02:10 AM
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yeah flume wheels are actually pretty high tech when you consider them and how much they changed so much of history.
it sounds like you have a plan so wish you well in your endevour.
i am including the following as a high tech alternative for moderate stream head pressures as know some other folks may be interested.

Directory:Zotloterer Gravitational Vortex Power Plant - PESWiki

best of luck,
Martin
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:08 PM
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@Stealth: Interesting, and sounds like the traditional type water wheel set up, although using aluminum for the wheel construction. Any chance you could grab a photo or two of that installation and post them here? I really haven't had the time yet to consider what materials I would prefer to use for construction of the wheel, and it seems as though that would depend upon whether one wants a lightweight wheel or a wheel with considerable heft. A lightweight aluminum wheel would appear to have the advantages of ease of rotation and reduced drag and wear on bearing surfaces, while a hefty wheel would seem to have the advantage of greater torque applied to any driven mechanism once the wheel is set into motion. Of course even an 8 to 10 foot diameter aluminum wheel would have some heft to it, and might well prove substantial enough depending upon the the requirements of the driven mechanism. Have you been inside the housed portion of this fellow's setup to see what actual use he is making of it? A photo of the interior mechanisms would be very interesting if you can gain access to them.

@nueview: Thanks for the link, and all your suggestions. At this stage I really don't have a fixed plan, and am only gathering ideas, so any ideas passed along to me that may be helpful are greatly appreciated. After I am situated at the new homestead, I will canvass the surrounding area to determine where sites of existing or under construction water wheels are located, and will visit those to take some photos and video to share in this thread.

Bottom line economics will of course play a substantial role in determining the feasibility of a hydro power project on my stream, as well as flowage factors, and after all factors are considered I may possibly find that it would be more economical, and less of a hassle, to simply have a pony walk a circular path of 20 foot diameter while hitched to a post attached to a central hub which could drive a generator. Of course this method has its costs too (cost of pony and pony feed, shelter and maintenance of pony, construction of the mechanisms, and storage batteries if used, etc.). Then too, a stream can provide power continuously if the flow is adequate and sustained, whereas a pony would need non-productive rest periods and sleep time. I do suspect, however, that a pony attached to a simple 20 foot fulcrum bar could provide substantially more drive torque than a water wheel with moderate to limited flowage, and thus may possibly produce an equal or greater amount of power than said water wheel even if worked only 8 hours per day. Of course pony power is getting a bit off the topic of this thread, but it might be interesting to consider for the sake of comparison and alternatives. Any thoughts in this regard?

Rick
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:44 PM
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actually as far as the pony goes it ain't a bad idea there is a dog sled musher who runs his dogs and for excersize has an alternator set to the same kind of pony show you are talking about and i think he said the six dogs run 3 alternators and in an hour his bank of batteries are charged for the day.
i haven't seen the setup but met the guy at the karaoke show.
Martin
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:46 AM
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@nueview: That's interesting about the dogs. I know those mushers can move a lot of weight, and they love to work. Ponies like to work too, and I have seen merry-go-round type setups where three or four of them are hooked up and giving rides to children. Heck, that might be a dandy idea in the warmer months to earn money to pay for the horse feed, and in the winter the ponies could be diverted from the merry-go-round to pull sleigh rides when customers show up. Hmmmm...

@stealth: Thanks, it sounds interesting, and I'll be looking forward to seeing whatever pictures you can post.

Rick
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:11 AM
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yeah Rick
do you ever have realy stupid thoughts and then spend the day wondering about them?
well here goes a real good one for you. instead of the dogs or ponys lets say a guy builds a forty foot high set of vortex towers os that they dump back and forth dropping about four foot or so each time and each time you get increased velocity power so you would be running about 19 generators with the same water by the time you get to the bottom.
now for the stupid part how much energy would it take to pump the water back to the top?
i mean the total spinning pressure of all that water is far above the head pressure volume which would never self run.
i am just wondering because i have a hill out back and could use some old oil barrels and could probably get sixty from top to bottom so how much water is needed to feed the vortex?
you would have one heck of a flood if the pump stopped though.
Martin
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Old 11-15-2011, 11:09 AM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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you guys are gonna really do all this work for a few drops of free energy ?

o my my i built that turbine many years ago long b4 i knew who tesla was ... i have since found better methods .. altho i bet my turbine will fly !

as in lift off the ground !




W

you know i shattered the formula of how horse power is calculated with this turbine .. i proved hp as total bullsh!t it is a poor excuse as a method of mesurement i can increase output of my turbine with out changeing the input by simply adding more weight ...
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nueview View Post
yeah Rick
do you ever have realy stupid thoughts and then spend the day wondering about them?
well here goes a real good one for you. instead of the dogs or ponys lets say a guy builds a forty foot high set of vortex towers os that they dump back and forth dropping about four foot or so each time and each time you get increased velocity power so you would be running about 19 generators with the same water by the time you get to the bottom.
now for the stupid part how much energy would it take to pump the water back to the top?
i mean the total spinning pressure of all that water is far above the head pressure volume which would never self run.
i am just wondering because i have a hill out back and could use some old oil barrels and could probably get sixty from top to bottom so how much water is needed to feed the vortex?
you would have one heck of a flood if the pump stopped though.
Martin
I know what you mean, Martin, and my mind is constantly spinning around with thoughts. To my thinking, it is only the thoughts and dreams that are never thought through which are the stupid ones. In thinking about different possibilities for water wheel use, I have in fact thought of employing a tower setup as you are suggesting. My idea was to either use the water wheel to direct drive a water pump to send water to the tower, or to employ water pick-up cups on the wheel that would dump water to a trough at or near the top of the wheel. If this second method is employed, water would run down the trough, which would be slanted back towards ground level, where it would activate a hydraulic ram pump and excess water would return to the stream. Ram pumps are capable of lifting water quite a ways up, of course, and require nothing but water flow to accomplish this. The question with this type of installation would be how much water the cups on the wheel would be able to hold without stalling the wheel, which would be a design consideration. In this regard, I think many smaller cups would be better than fewer large ones. I don't see flooding, from reverse flow from the tower as a problem, since a ball type one-way check valve could be employed to prevent reverse flow back to the pump should it fail.
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Last edited by rickoff; 11-15-2011 at 03:02 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-15-2011, 03:04 PM
Savvypro Savvypro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willy96 View Post
you guys are gonna really do all this work for a few drops of free energy ?

o my my i built that turbine many years ago long b4 i knew who tesla was ... i have since found better methods .. altho i bet my turbine will fly !

as in lift off the ground !




W

you know i shattered the formula of how horse power is calculated with this turbine .. i proved hp as total bullsh!t it is a poor excuse as a method of mesurement i can increase output of my turbine with out changeing the input by simply adding more weight ...
Not sure where you get the idea that the result will only be "few drops of free energy".

If there is enough water volume (using the method I linked to), then it is easily possible to power a house or two or a farm. Just look at a water wheel powered mill. I recently saw a documentary covering the restoration of a mill in Wales in the UK. The water wheel frame its self weighed half a ton - as it was all steel. The stream that was used to turn the wheel was nothing to write home about, being only 2 meters wide and very shallow. If it wasn’t for the mini dam about 5ft high some 25 meters up stream from the mill, with the water being channelled to the water wheel along the river bank. The mill wouldn’t run.

Anyway, if your turbine works as you say it does - why not share the plans.
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  #30  
Old 11-15-2011, 03:56 PM
nueview nueview is offline
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ok Rick
i guess it is ok to waiste a few brain cells on this then.
when i was a kid in new jersey there was a low head dam about six feet high and it had three ram pumps and they lifted water to troughs up in the cow pastures and they had valves to turn them on or off. the amount of lift depended on the water velocity so head pressure gave better operation.
the amount of output got smaller as the hieght of lift as the air pressure in the ram was harder to work.
so six foot of head pressure gave thirty six foot of lift if i remember right. it also used allot more water than it pumped as water was the fuel so to say.
it had to flow to get velocity then hammer shut compress the air drive the water check the back pressure open and flow again get velocity and on and on.
i am not sure it was real efficient as a mechanism but it did work without any fuel or electric.
a flume wheel is straight pressure to pressure. i would think it would outperform the ram pump.
as i said before Louis used flume wheels to pump a million gallons of water a day from the seign river to paris and i think the lift was 60 foot but am not sure about this part but still big river big wheels lots of water.
i am still thinking on the vortex tower though something about it is realy bothering me like the phi ratio of spin in the vortex maybe a set of vains or a vent like a tesla turbine at the vortex bottom then you have mass and speed and water is very charge sensative as well locked charges in motion can have a great braking effect or drive inputus.
Martin
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