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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #31  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:27 PM
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rickoff rickoff is offline
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@stealth: Gee, that's too bad he is against sharing. It is hard to imagine tht anyone could get a patent on anything concerning water wheel technology, as just about anything that's possible must have already been done at one time or another. The pictures of the other water wheels are interesting, though. The larger one must be about 25 feet in diameter, and has quite a heavy duty shaft. The smaller wooden wheel could not possibly put out nearly as much torque, but because of the wide design can utilize more flowage to drive it. I would suspect that the curved plates attached to the larger wheel produce a more efficient driving force than the flat boards of the wooden wheel.
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  #32  
Old 11-21-2011, 05:45 AM
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Last Wednesday I was at the new property to stow a load of boxed items I had hauled there in my pickup truck. I ended up having a little time to spare, so took a walk down to the stream with my video camera, starting at the point where my northern property border crosses the stream, and then working my way upstream towards the eastern boundary. The sky was heavily overcast, and no doubt that is why the video looks rather drab. It was rather difficult weaving my way through the tangled and densely overgrown brush, but was worth the effort. Unfortunately, I ran out of videotape before I had walked half the length of the stream, but at that point it started raining so I would have quit anyways. I knew I was low on tape, so wanted to concentrate on the section of the stream that is closest to the house. I think you will agree that there are definitely possibilities for developing hydro power on this stream. Here's the video link.

Rick
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  #33  
Old 11-21-2011, 01:50 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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BTW i think those figures for "pressure" do not take into account the weight of water in the reservoir behind it; they appear to be only based on the pipe diameter as if there was just barely enough water to cover over the pipe head without sucking air.
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  #34  
Old 11-21-2011, 04:12 PM
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hi Rick
it looks like the area at 3:47 on the video is promissing and like there is some possible head to the stream in the last bit but that could be the camera angle but it looked like about 5 foot of drop with some small rapids.
a form to focus the water there and you could probably have an all electric house.
Martin
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  #35  
Old 11-22-2011, 06:29 AM
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@nueview: You may be right about the drop. I remember saying initially that there was a total drop of perhaps 5 feet over the full course of the stream as it runs through my property, and I made that assumption based upon elevation readings I took in Google Earth. I don't think those readings were accurate. I do have a laser transit level and a surveyor's grade rod which I used last year at my cottage property, and when I have some time on my hands I will measure off 100 foot sections along the stream and determine just how much drop there actually is. The stream section viewed at 3:37 elapsed time does appear to be a likely candidate and, as it happens, is also the closest section to my house, being about 200 feet or so from it.

@Stealth: Yes, with span widths of 40 feet and more there is quite a bit of water moving through the stream. This is probably about the slowest period of the year, and I can envision quite a torrent sweeping through during spring runoff. Once I get the scrub brush out of the way and clear the deadwood from the banks and stream, this will be a picturesque vista.
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  #36  
Old 11-24-2011, 01:10 PM
erfinder erfinder is offline
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Reduced drag generator concept to be driven by water wheel

Hello,

This is my first post in this thread, I find the topic extremely interesting and have a few simple questions, and an indirect suggestion/recommendation.

What are your feelings regarding the use of a drag reduced generator for power production, with the water wheel serving as the prime mover?

I have found that the all too familiar pulse motor circuits discussed in detail on a few threads on this forum, when configured in the correct manner make wonderful reduced drag generators.....in some instances, and by no means all instances energy extraction requires that one get a little creative, the fact that we are here discussing alternatives is a testament to the fact that none here are lacking in the creativity department.....

When considering the first question, one tends to ask oneself whether such an undertaking is worth the time and effort, as the present construction methods of these pulse motors is such that the devices aren't designed to be operated harsh environments. This leads me to ask two additional questions.

Has anyone modified a brushless fan to operate on the pulse motor circuit (Bedini SG circuit)?

Anyone who answered with "yes", have you considered modifying larger brushless motors?

It was demonstrated some time ago that these pulse circuits can be applied to conventional brusless motors (ie. fan kits)... Many including myself have modified brushless PC fans and larger brushless fans to operate on the pulsed circuit. I went even farther and modified other motor types including but not limited to three phase motors. To my dismay, it was discovered that many motors cannot operate as "motors" owing to geometry and other way over my head issues, however, nearly all can be used as a generator, and not just any generator, a "pulsing" drag reduced generator, or what I would like to call...well.....a magneto, or as its presently called, an energizer, driven by a water wheel instead of being powered by a battery.....

It must be pointed out that the generator output is limited only by ones imagination and ingenuity.

In case the question is asked...

Yes...I am positive that the modified motors work as pulsing generators...anyone can verify this, simply step outside of the box that you stepped into when you took an interest in the circuit in question. I have not driven the modified motor with a water wheel....not yet.... I have nothing worthy of demonstrating presently, many show their work regardless of its state of development, I won't do that...either my best or nothing at all. I hope to have some images eventually and maybe a video or two showing that what I have stated is true. Till then please be patient with me. I hope this was of interest and or help to someone.

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  #37  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:00 AM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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i have worked many years in this feild and have found easyer less expencive ways to acheive useable power .. the water flows so it can be utilized


my simple floating water wheel design is nothng more than a cable spool
where there 24 paddles joining the 2 circles and the entire wheel is out of the water only the paddles enter the current of the streem on this wheel is a pully bigger the better at least 24" off this pully is the car alt ..

this can be adapted many ways easly build what steve. explains above useing this design wheels are 42 " across could easly place hundreds of magnets and coils on a single unit ...

you could then have low voltage generator coils to power the pm circuits so NO BATTERIES ARE REQUIRED PEROID the pm circuits are set to ring the output coils wich are triggered as a magnet passes it ...

i can make the output up to 1000's of volts and input as low as .5vdc

i have built many many things useing this style of creative thinking

steve have you seen this video ? i developed this coil and modified a pm circuit .. my pluser runs .6 ma 3.6ma at 12vdc putting out 70vdc high freq!

the secondary .. spews plasma ...
and im not even passing a magnet past the coil ...

WHOLE LOTTA LOVE! - YouTube
here is my most basic pluse motor design.. this can be added with ease to a water wheel

ist pluse motor triligy!

IST PULSE MOTOR PART 1 - YouTube
IST PULSE MOTOR PART #2 - YouTube
IST PULSE MOTOR #3 NO BATTERY - YouTube


W
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  #38  
Old 11-26-2011, 03:10 PM
erfinder erfinder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willy96 View Post
i have worked many years in this feild and have found easyer less expencive ways to acheive useable power .. the water flows so it can be utilized


my simple floating water wheel design is nothng more than a cable spool
where there 24 paddles joining the 2 circles and the entire wheel is out of the water only the paddles enter the current of the streem on this wheel is a pully bigger the better at least 24" off this pully is the car alt ..

this can be adapted many ways easly build what steve. explains above useing this design wheels are 42 " across could easly place hundreds of magnets and coils on a single unit ...

you could then have low voltage generator coils to power the pm circuits so NO BATTERIES ARE REQUIRED PEROID the pm circuits are set to ring the output coils wich are triggered as a magnet passes it ...

i can make the output up to 1000's of volts and input as low as .5vdc

i have built many many things useing this style of creative thinking

steve have you seen this video ? i developed this coil and modified a pm circuit .. my pluser runs .6 ma 3.6ma at 12vdc putting out 70vdc high freq!

the secondary .. spews plasma ...
and im not even passing a magnet past the coil ...

WHOLE LOTTA LOVE! - YouTube
here is my most basic pluse motor design.. this can be added with ease to a water wheel

ist pluse motor triligy!

IST PULSE MOTOR PART 1 - YouTube
IST PULSE MOTOR PART #2 - YouTube
IST PULSE MOTOR #3 NO BATTERY - YouTube


W
Whats going on in that third video.. Are you going to upload a schematic?
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  #39  
Old 11-27-2011, 01:16 AM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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the schem is showen in the movie above at time 3:46


it is easly done .... long coil air core .. 1 db107 bridge 1 reed 1 cap 1pf

that is all there is to it .. spinn by hand to start it .. the copper disc is 10 lbs ... its a hpg! - the brushes

W
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2011, 12:26 PM
garrypm garrypm is online now
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Any chance of some detail on the HPG and brushes?

Thanks, Garry
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  #41  
Old 11-27-2011, 02:59 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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Originally Posted by garrypm View Post
Any chance of some detail on the HPG and brushes?

Thanks, Garry
well a hpg is a generator with almost no backtorque .. when power is extracted there is no counter work to beat .. so the hpg is a great choise

brushes are easly found to build a toy like this . a vaccumme cleaner motor is a good source for good sized brushes the brushes will cause the motor to spinn less fast as the drag on the copper disc from the contact of the brushes

this is the easyest way to extract power from the hpg ..

i have built a bucking hpg years back ! useing alum insted of copper

results are fair !

W
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2011, 07:13 PM
garrypm garrypm is online now
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Thanks for that.

So are you saying this selfrunning device (IST #3 video) is really a HPG?

Garry
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  #43  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:20 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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i personally think you guys are gonna waste your dow ! but that choise is yours

just telling ya ... i live on a river where i can legally dam the river .. it is on the deed as it was a heratige old mill ... did i? no i did not .. no need

you know if i was to plop my floating water wheels in the river with only magnets and coils ... no belts nothing to break .. i could litterly put hundreds and hundreds .. in about 1 day of work .. then i could pull them from the river in the fall b4 the ice ...

agin why all the work ?

W

you know i could use a power source be it what ever ... and a large transformer .. and make more power than the river and nothing to move around .. or no big money outlay ..

but do as you will !
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  #44  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:26 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garrypm View Post
Thanks for that.

So are you saying this selfrunning device (IST #3 video) is really a HPG?

Garry
yes it is

i do say this in the video .. told ya i solved hundreds of free energy devices and designed hundreds more !

and its joke! its damm simple .. just like my first water turbine shattering horse power ! simple joke ... proves there sicience is quite flawed

W

anyhow this is not my thred and i dont discourage any one to try new things .. but dont waste a tonne of money changeing the land scape when there is no need !
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  #45  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:35 PM
Savvypro Savvypro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooke View Post
I will give question then answer i have, can anyone confirm

Water falls on the blades to allow rotation. This water falls from 100m wrt blades. Assume no losses in energy conversion. Initial vertical velocity is zero.

Calculate: -

a) velocity of water when it strikes the blades 9 [v^(2)= (u^(2))+2as] transposed v = sqrt((u^(2))+2as)

b) Mass of water flowing per second to generate 20kW (honestly not sure what forumla to use)

I know k= r/sqrt2 and J = mk^(2) for iput into KE(rot) = (1/2)Jw^(2)??????

c) RPM if combined wheel and gene had Radius of gyration of 3m and mass of 120kg

d) State and explain 2 reasons why the flow of water required togenerate the given power needs to be greater than given in a and b

For b the equation you may be looking for is shown at: The Josef Hasslberger page: Technology

See half way down in the "Calculation" section:

Quote:
The electrical energy that can be obtained from water is calculated on the basis of the velocity of flow and the mass of the water, i.e. magnitude of flow measured in cubic meters per second, according to the formula

E kin = m/2 * v^2 (kw)

An example, assuming a velocity of 25 m/sec and a mass of 5 cubic meters per second:

5 / 2 = 2.5 * 25 * 25 = 1562.5 kw
Basically in the example above: if you can get a stream which has a flow of 5 cubic meters per second. And increase the velocity to 25 m/sec (by narrowing the path the water takes and then through a funnel), you could produce over 1.5MW of power.

To produce 20kW wouldn't take that much volume of water and velocity increase. 1 cubic meters per second of volume, increased to a velocity of 6.5 m/sec would give you: 21.13kW
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  #46  
Old 11-29-2011, 04:21 PM
garrypm garrypm is online now
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W,

Would you be kind enough to give more detail about the HPG?

I would like so much to replicate.

Thanks, Garry
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  #47  
Old 11-29-2011, 04:50 PM
willy96 willy96 is offline
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i can but i hate to waste space here

Quote:
Originally Posted by garrypm View Post
W,

Would you be kind enough to give more detail about the HPG?

I would like so much to replicate.

Thanks, Garry
just because but it could easly be adapted to a water wheel i guess...

a hpg is nothing more than a copper disc and a magnet with 2 brushes comeing off it .. now this can be built many many ways does not half to be a disc .. you can use bronze rod as axel if you can afford it .. run 1 brush off axel and other on edge of disc spinn magnet and disc togather to beat back torque if neos are used use a ring neo ... and insulate it from disc ie paper ... with a ring neo ... it is ballanced easyer ... look up faraiday disc spg hpg teslas unipolar dynmo the n machine .. i could go on but i wont .... look at any of those devices ...

W
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Last edited by willy96; 11-29-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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  #48  
Old 12-01-2011, 09:36 PM
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Thumbs up Water Powered PMG

Hi Rick,

Have you checked this water powered generator on Ebay?

PMA Generator for Pelton Water Power 12-36 VAC 1000-3000 Watt | eBay

Looks like a good deal.... I wonder how much water would be required to get 1000 to 3000 rpm.... is that unreasonable?

Todd
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  #49  
Old 12-01-2011, 10:31 PM
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Hi Todd, and thanks for the link. That generator actually puts out 3 phase AC at over 50 Amps per phase. It is rated 1,000 watts at 1,000 rpm, and up to 3,000 watts at 3,000 rpm for continuous 24-7 use. Getting this range of rpm would not be difficult at my stream if a water wheel of sufficient diameter and width is employed to take best advantage of the water flow, and would simply be a matter of appropriate gearing ratios and flow control. While this unit is made for a water driven Pelton Wheel, it could just as well be driven by a standard water wheel, and at a price of $159 is not a bad deal at all. No reason why 2 or 3 additional units could not be driven by a large water wheel, as it is said that the unit has "very little cogging torque."

I'll definitely look into this some more. Thanks.
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2011, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
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yeah Rick
do you ever have realy stupid thoughts and then spend the day wondering about them?
well here goes a real good one for you. instead of the dogs or ponys lets say a guy builds a forty foot high set of vortex towers os that they dump back and forth dropping about four foot or so each time and each time you get increased velocity power so you would be running about 19 generators with the same water by the time you get to the bottom.
now for the stupid part how much energy would it take to pump the water back to the top?
A wirtz pump is a simple efficient way to pump water 40+, although it would take several for that volume.
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:16 AM
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@ navigator
please post a link so i can look it over.
i once saw a guy pumpimg water with an old oil barrel he had gotten it had had vegatable oil if i remember right he painted it black and covered it with plastic and it had two check valves on it during the day it would push the water up about twenty feet and at night it would suck up more water.
long cycle for fifteen gallons a day but it was free to get water for his flush toilet.
as i remember it he said it worked best if the barrel had some air space left in it i remember thinking that it made sense at the time due to the expantion rate for the air.
i still think about the tower idea allot so do please post some information about this form of pump.
Martin
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:15 PM
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The Spiral Pump: A High Lift, Slow Turning Pump

Hope this helps

Seems like it would be an easy addition to an existing water wheel.
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  #53  
Old 12-04-2011, 12:34 AM
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Speaking of spiral pump water wheels, here's a link to one I noticed a few days ago. Notice it is sandwiched between two water wheels. This type of pump is excellent for lifting water to a higher elevation because it can be attached to a water wheel without causing any drag to slow the wheel down. It would be almost foolhardy not to employ a pump like this on a water wheel installation, as the pumped water could be used to irrigate a garden and/or drive a Pelton type turbine connected to a generator for additional power production. The lifting capacity appears to be figured at somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 the length of the coiled pipe, depending upon size of the pipe used for the coil and the delivery line. The speed of rotation doesn't have much of an effect on the height that the water can be pumped, but of course determines how much water will be pumped in a certain time period. On a 10 foot water wheel the coil could probably serve to elevate water 50 to 60 feet above the stream, which would be dandy for driving a turbine.

On another note, since we had talked about a pony tethered to post attached to a merry-go-round type of affair to drive a generator, I thought the following two videos would be of interest:

Horse sweep water pump

Cow driven water lift (This one uses cups to grab and lift water, which is then dumped into a trough, and is a method I mentioned earlier, though I had suggested mounting the cups on a water wheel [like in this example] and sloping the trough downwards to a hydraulic ram for pumping to a higher elevation. Much of the ram action would waste water, though, and would be way less efficient (per amount of water pumped) than the coiled spiral tubing water lift method). On the other hand, though, the coiled spiral method only picks up water once per revolution of the wheel, whereas the cup type pump (as seen in the last link) can pick up water at multiple locations on the wheel. Thus, even considering the water wasted with a ram pump, this method could equal or surpass the spiral coil method in actual volume pumped. Here's an example of the intermittent output from a spiral coil pump on an 8 foot diameter water wheel.
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2011, 05:28 AM
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I spent the past two days at my new home, getting it cleaned and ready to move into. After a couple days of rain, and a snowstorm last night, the water in the stream is picking up volume and speed. This really does appear to be a great place for a waterwheel project. I didn't get to venture out with my video camera, as I had a lot of cleaning to do at the house. One of these cleaning chores was to go up in the solar attic and vacuum up dead flies. I don't know how they got in there, but there were lots of them. In the summer there are screened vents at both ends of the attic that are left open to exhaust hot air, and perhaps one of those screens is damaged. The vents were closed in October in preparation for the winter months. Anyways, when I opened the attic door and stood there in the attic with vacuum in hand, I was nearly bowled over by the heat. It felt like a furnace in there!

I was curious to see just how hot it was, so went to the store and picked up a indoor/outdoor thermometer set which uses a separate unit to transmit outside temperature to the main unit indoors. First I placed the transmitter outdoors, and found it was 30F degrees. It felt quite a bit colder, because the wind was howling. I then brought the transmitter back inside and took it to the attic. Then I watched the main unit every few minutes from the comfort of my living room. The attic temperature kept climbing and climbing, and was at 126F degrees by noon time. The main unit automatically saves a high and low temp for the day, and the attic actually went to 137F degrees in the early afternoon. I had completely shut off the supplemental electric baseboard heat early this morning, and even with it being a bone chilling day outdoors my house maintained a comfy temperature range between 65 and 73F degrees from sunrise to sunset. Two hours after sunset, when I left to drive to my other home, the attic temperature was 86F, and the house was at 70F degrees. I'm really pleased with this solar heating arrangement, and will make a video later on showing how all of this works. Incidentally, the water tank in the solar attic did a great job of heating water before feeding it to the electric water heater downstairs, and I'm sure this will save a bundle on water heating costs. If the dishwasher, clothes washer, and shower water were used during the early afternoon each day, it is doubtful that the electric water heater would even kick in on a sunny day.

I can hardly wait to get started on some solar enhancement projects this winter, and not a day goes by that I don't think or dream about setting up the waterwheel project. I have absolutely no doubt that, between the solar heating and waterwheel electric production, I could definitely run an all electric home off grid.
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Last edited by rickoff; 12-12-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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  #55  
Old 03-22-2013, 05:23 PM
gene gene gene gene is offline
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Hi Rick,

I think of you often & wonder how you are doing at your new property. I came across this video that shows a number of different vortex water turbines, some look to be home built from salvaged parts. I don't know what language they speak but the pictures are great and tell a lot.
Green Energy: Hidrokinetic Turbines - YouTube

Regards, Gene
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