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  #2521  
Old 04-12-2010, 09:26 AM
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StevanC StevanC is offline
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Stevan
I think this coming week I will replicate what you have done. I changed the diagram a bit by removing 2 of the switches and added 4 diodes. It looks a bit like the full TS. Can you go over the diagram if you don't mind and tell me if you think it will still do the same as yours.
nvisser,
You seem to have a line missing in between the bottom bank and negative Sziklay?


But it is "IT", it should work "about" same.

To consider:
FVD (Forward Voltage Drop)
It's a function of amperes passing a BJT:
You will have higher FVD on Your two Sziklay's filling the banks than I have on my four , as I "branch out" the flow over twice BJTs than You
Thus I fill "higher" the banks (less FVD).
Besides that, (higher FVD) You have an additional Diode FVD in series to each Bank (~0.4V for Shotky, 0,7V for Si, 0.2V even GaAs ). Even less voltage left for the caps?


Anyhow, worthy exploring, for the elegance and lesser cost of BOM?
I might be mistaken? (been wrong before )
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  #2522  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
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Thank you
I repaired the diagram.
I will try this one.
I was under the impression that with two switches I will have less voltage drop than on four?
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Last edited by nvisser; 04-12-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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  #2523  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevanC View Post

I'm not so sure
IMHO it depends, and it _might_ be a good thing, but as well a bad?
Well, I would think it would be a good thing from the perspective of the solar panel, I mean you can buffer the output of the solar panel this way and a cap can release it's energy pretty darn fast, so the dead time would charge up the cap, releasing a gush of potential onto the inner capacitors, equalizing and at the same time...while charging the inner banks, pull even more in from the solar panel, almost like sucking juice out of the solar panel.

Quote:
I take a clip-wire and do so. Guess what i Found out?
Well, if I hadn't read your WHOLE post, I'd say no difference, but below you say...It seems to be desired. So, I'd have to hazard a guess that it did matter and for the worse.

Quote:
It seems to be desired: the "middle" BJT on the "series" side seems to like *equilibrium*. We seem to picture the potential/current_flow the wrong way around in this part of the circuit :
We consider the BJT "right" while "in Que", while i seems we should consider it at the moment it's just about to "que" - then it's all "normal", and, who says the BJT know's it's upside-down ?
When I did some scalar testing with PNPs only, I noticed that the two capacitors were not charged to the same level and did not discharge equally either, perhaps what you are saying about that serial device wanting them more = on top and bottom. That serial device gets twice the potential across it as compared to the others.


Quote:
Kind of, but no,
I just wanted a Sandbox type of setup, I could shunt with Diodes, SCRs and "shorts" until I find a way advantageous to others.
Might have told me that!

Stevan,
Back at ya

Thank you for your observations and reply and, of course, the hug.

Lero
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  #2524  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:27 PM
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Energy from TS

For anyone who gives a crap, I'm measuring about 6 times the power out of a TS vs. 4 batteries in parallel. Now, these batteries are old, can only produce power at C40 for about 6 hours and they are agms, not flooded. The are about 3 years old and have run SSGs, and other things and I haven't done much with them in terms of attempting to conditioning them, but 600% gain in power is pretty awesome. I think "good" batteries would put some interesting numbers up.

Leroy
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  #2525  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:33 PM
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Lightbulb on..

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Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
Well, I would think it would be a good thing from the perspective of the solar panel, I mean you can buffer the output of the solar panel this way and a cap can release it's energy pretty darn fast, so the dead time would charge up the cap, releasing a gush of potential onto the inner capacitors, equalizing and at the same time...while charging the inner banks, pull even more in from the solar panel, almost like sucking juice out of the solar panel.
I wonder if the panel likes more to "swing" or to be depleted at a constant rate?
Is there a resonance of most advantage?

Quote:
Well, if I hadn't read your WHOLE post, I'd say no difference, but below you say...It seems to be desired. So, I'd have to hazard a guess that it did matter and for the worse.
The loss of equilibrium, seems to impose some stress to the middle BJT and I seem to not know the device enough to draw a decent conclusion yet.
Its only 2V of "not equal" and the spike is lost?
Quote:
When I did some scalar testing with PNPs only, I noticed that the two capacitors were not charged to the same level and did not discharge equally either, perhaps what you are saying about that serial device wanting them more = on top and bottom. That serial device gets twice the potential across it as compared to the others.
I think i have the caps sort of equalized and matched by using a mix of two batches each bank?
Worst thing is cheap "just works", for it can have low repeatability.
The middle serial BJT, what do You picture it see? ("bring it on" )
Quote:

Might have told me that!
I still can't say all
Quote:

Stevan,
Back at ya

Thank you for your observations and reply and, of course, the hug.
The hug should have wavy stars of sheer power applied

Quote:

Lero

pondering on now...

Stevan C.

"this close"
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  #2526  
Old 04-12-2010, 12:37 PM
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Ben and me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
For anyone who gives a crap, I'm measuring about 6 times the power out of a TS vs. 4 batteries in parallel. Now, these batteries are old, can only produce power at C40 for about 6 hours and they are agms, not flooded. The are about 3 years old and have run SSGs, and other things and I haven't done much with them in terms of attempting to conditioning them, but 600% gain in power is pretty awesome. I think "good" batteries would put some interesting numbers up.

Leroy
"Amos, speak to me. Was it electricity?"
Ben and Me (1953)
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  #2527  
Old 04-12-2010, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
For anyone who gives a crap, I'm measuring about 6 times the power out of a TS vs. 4 batteries in parallel. Now, these batteries are old, can only produce power at C40 for about 6 hours and they are agms, not flooded. The are about 3 years old and have run SSGs, and other things and I haven't done much with them in terms of attempting to conditioning them, but 600% gain in power is pretty awesome. I think "good" batteries would put some interesting numbers up.

Leroy
That is amazing!!
I wanted to do that test a while ago but had to install one of my batteries into my gate motor. It's battery is 7 years old and was completely useless. I am busy conditioning it and it is getting better every day. So i think soon I will have my other battery back for experimentation.
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  #2528  
Old 04-12-2010, 06:18 PM
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[QUOTE=StevanC;91640]I wonder if the panel likes more to "swing" or to be depleted at a constant rate?
Is there a resonance of most advantage?

[\QUOTE]
I don't know, but I'd think that the more "potential" on the cap, the better when filling up the internal banks. The use of the cap on the solar panel is to get a "good" impedance for use in the TS...JB had one in his video (a big one).

[QUOTE]
The loss of equilibrium, seems to impose some stress to the middle BJT and I seem to not know the device enough to draw a decent conclusion yet.
Its only 2V of "not equal" and the spike is lost?

I think i have the caps sort of equalized and matched by using a mix of two batches each bank?
Worst thing is cheap "just works", for it can have low repeatability.
The middle serial BJT, what do You picture it see? ("bring it on" )
[\QUOTE]
I don't see, that is why I ask questions. Understanding is the key to knowledge.

It is in there in a reverse from normal direction. The collector is more positive than the emitter which is hooked to the negative. So, when it is queued, it should be seeing a drop across the collector emitter of roughly 2V-4V. But I think some magic might happen when it is dequeued. As in able to "go negative". When I had my scope in good condition and not packed up, I saw some very interesting things, like switching at roughly a few nano (or micro, can't remember off the top of my head) seconds for a short period of time after the queue ended (or dequeued). This was a very interesting waveform. It was one of the most interesting things I saw while working on this TS device. I didn't do it, the system did it.

Maybe it isn't in what it sees when it is on, but when it is off?

Lero
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  #2529  
Old 04-12-2010, 07:21 PM
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Arrow The middle math (BJT magic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
(snip)
I don't see, that is why I ask questions. Understanding is the key to knowledge.

It is in there in a reverse from normal direction. The collector is more positive than the emitter which is hooked to the negative. So, when it is queued, it should be seeing a drop across the collector emitter of roughly 2V-4V. But I think some magic might happen when it is dequeued. As in able to "go negative". When I had my scope in good condition and not packed up, I saw some very interesting things, like switching at roughly a few nano (or micro, can't remember off the top of my head) seconds for a short period of time after the queue ended (or dequeued). This was a very interesting waveform. It was one of the most interesting things I saw while working on this TS device. I didn't do it, the system did it.

Maybe it isn't in what it sees when it is on, but when it is off?

Lero
Do You envy me how easy i crack this QOUTE stuff open and then it's broken to all others?


I know I hate me

So, on to magic now

Let us asume the 1st Que is the PV "sucking" one.
Let us Just concentrate on the middle series BJT ("middleBJT"), okay?

1. The "top" bank is "grounded" ("middleBJT's emitter") with a "top-bank grounding"BJT Qued
2. The "lower" bank's positive is "pulled" high by the "low-bank hi-pullingBJT. The node is on "middleBJT's collector"

Those two bank X-BJTs are the ones "heating up" the "middleBJT" if replaced with diodes (or shunted short).
Those two we need to Que to keep good efficiency.

There are two more BJTs i"in Que" with them:
The "top-bank hi-pulling BJT" and the "low-bank grounding BJT"
This two can be replaced by Diodes or short shunts, allowing the banks 2V more potential and providing quite some more ponder to the switch. But never mind them.

Look up the middle BJT while this "quartet" is in "QUE"?
It is "normal"
It's collector is positive
It's emitter is tied to ground.


This is exactly the moment stop the QUE, and current stops (dries out) of our "quartet"

Yet, still potential (uAmps) traces bias out middleBJT "right" so current can start flow (it can begin "que")

As it goes to saturation, ti does not filp! ever ( ?! )

It adds up _negative_ to the series chain:

Battery sees=-BJThi+topCAP-BJTmid+lowCAP-BJTlow

= -4V+17.5V-4V+17.5V-4V = 35V-12V =23V
But the FVD is actually up to 8V at times
= -8V+17.5V-8V+17.5V-8V = 35V-24V =11V dumping to a depleted battery.

How many amperes needs a MJL21194 to develop 8V FVD?

If base current is 1A it has 25A on collector, and if base is 2,5A (which BD140 could provide) it is just over 30A


So just build and slow it down and watch the polarity in slow motion (I was all "wow- what could You know??" )

So, In my (newbie) oppinion, the middle BJT is upside down, not knowing it and does Que just right,
or in other terms,
we draw it "wrong way", it should have it's emitter "downwards".

Does this add up in Your opinion?
Stevan C.
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  #2530  
Old 04-12-2010, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevanC View Post
Do You envy me how easy i crack this QOUTE stuff open and then it's broken to all others?


I know I hate me

So, on to magic now

Let us asume the 1st Que is the PV "sucking" one.
Let us Just concentrate on the middle series BJT ("middleBJT"), okay?

1. The "top" bank is "grounded" ("middleBJT's emitter") with a "top-bank grounding"BJT Qued
2. The "lower" bank's positive is "pulled" high by the "low-bank hi-pullingBJT. The node is on "middleBJT's collector"

Those two bank X-BJTs are the ones "heating up" the "middleBJT" if replaced with diodes (or shunted short).
Those two we need to Que to keep good efficiency.

There are two more BJTs i"in Que" with them:
The "top-bank hi-pulling BJT" and the "low-bank grounding BJT"
This two can be replaced by Diodes or short shunts, allowing the banks 2V more potential and providing quite some more ponder to the switch. But never mind them.

Look up the middle BJT while this "quartet" is in "QUE"?
It is "normal"
It's collector is positive
It's emitter is tied to ground.


This is exactly the moment stop the QUE, and current stops (dries out) of our "quartet"

Yet, still potential (uAmps) traces bias out middleBJT "right" so current can start flow (it can begin "que")

As it goes to saturation, ti does not filp! ever ( ?! )

It adds up _negative_ to the series chain:

Battery sees=-BJThi+topCAP-BJTmid+lowCAP-BJTlow

= -4V+17.5V-4V+17.5V-4V = 35V-12V =23V
But the FVD is actually up to 8V at times
= -8V+17.5V-8V+17.5V-8V = 35V-24V =11V dumping to a depleted battery.

How many amperes needs a MJL21194 to develop 8V FVD?

If base current is 1A it has 25A on collector, and if base is 2,5A (which BD140 could provide) it is just over 30A


So just build and slow it down and watch the polarity in slow motion (I was all "wow- what could You know??" )

So, In my (newbie) oppinion, the middle BJT is upside down, not knowing it and does Que just right,
or in other terms,
we draw it "wrong way", it should have it's emitter "downwards".

Does this add up in Your opinion?
Stevan C.
I will have to digest these words a little before I can make ANY kind of intelligent response...intelligent ha. Anyway, you speak of that which you work on, me what I work on. We are in different worlds on the same "sort" of thing, give me a little time to correlate your words with your diagram.

Lero

P.S. I do not hate you! I do not hug those whom I hate...although, I hate no one, not even my enemies.
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  #2531  
Old 04-13-2010, 08:11 AM
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The diode on the PNP BD140 base circuit helped me to "see the light".
Maybe because it was a LED diode I used ?
Stevan C,
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Last edited by StevanC; 04-13-2010 at 08:11 AM. Reason: phuh :(
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  #2532  
Old 04-13-2010, 06:53 PM
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Thumbs up The totally awesome complete howto with color plans

This is how i did it (PUBLIC DOMAIN)

"https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8Bd_xdCEfDkOTgyMTM5OWEtMjgyYy00OWE3LTg4N TMtODllYTc4MDYxNzAw&hl=en"

I'm not swearing, it's google docs.
report problems if any?

This is PUBLIC and is GPLv3 (not allowed to be closed any more)


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  #2533  
Old 04-13-2010, 08:57 PM
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The link didn't work..

Matt
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  #2534  
Old 04-14-2010, 02:14 AM
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Please, can you put somewhere where you don't have to sign up with Google or anyone else to get the file? I just tried creating an account with Google to see the file but they want a phone number with text messaging capabilities before they'll give you one. Sorry, but that's a little too personal for my taste. :P
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  #2535  
Old 04-14-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevanC View Post
The diode on the PNP BD140 base circuit helped me to "see the light".
Maybe because it was a LED diode I used ?
Stevan C,
Do you mean to say that there should be a diode on the base for the circuit to function correctly?
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  #2536  
Old 04-14-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Do you mean to say that there should be a diode on the base for the circuit to function correctly?
No, it just helps for exploring options.
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  #2537  
Old 04-14-2010, 11:35 AM
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
The link didn't work..

Matt
I apologize, I didn't realize it's this hard to share a 3MB file

torrent
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  #2538  
Old 04-14-2010, 11:43 AM
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamus View Post
Please, can you put somewhere where you don't have to sign up with Google or anyone else to get the file? I just tried creating an account with Google to see the file but they want a phone number with text messaging capabilities before they'll give you one. Sorry, but that's a little too personal for my taste. :P
the file

and Scribd


Do please provide some feedback, and don't go too hard on me for proofreading
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  #2539  
Old 04-14-2010, 11:44 AM
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Ya it can be a task. I am not going to install a bit torrent either.

I'll PM you if you with my email, If you want I can post it for ya on my website, which is easy access and will not go down in the forseable future.

Look for the PM

Matt
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Old 04-14-2010, 02:07 PM
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Thank you Stevan
I managed to download the pdf with Download Accelerator
I will go through it tonight
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  #2541  
Old 04-14-2010, 04:08 PM
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Yes, thanks Stevan. Much better.
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  #2542  
Old 04-14-2010, 06:26 PM
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Thanks Stevan

Thanks Stevan,



I was able to download it ok from your link that says "the file". An excellent design project and a great written description for how to build and test.


Thanks again, Carroll
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:36 PM
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Hi,
thank You all for thanking, it's JB's credit mostly, not mine, I merely "indigo" it

Please provide some feedback regarding the build, if any ?
and/or few photos?

Best regards,
Stevan C.
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  #2544  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:46 PM
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Thank you

Thank you very much Stefan for returning to this thread with all that info, making it public, the wonderfull pdf opened my eyes
I knew you had it when I saw your video's some weeks ago
When I can afford to buy the cap's I wil try to replicate and experiment

@nvisser: I like your version of the circuit, did you build it already?



scratchrobot
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
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...Do please provide some feedback...
Stevan,

Interesting circuit and nicely documented; it reminded me of one from past experiments (see attached file from my notes).

Thank you,

Schpankme

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." -- Richard P. Feynman
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File Type: jpg Schpankme_high-voltage_Battery Charger.jpg (16.9 KB, 94 views)
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  #2546  
Old 04-15-2010, 06:32 AM
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Stevan
Very nice informative document. Specially the specs on the MJL and the information about the dicharge pulse. A very quick pulse at 30Ma!!! because of the sharp leading edge. How true is that and how do you get to that information or is it to mathamatical? Must be the same thing they get with spark gaps. Is this actually drawing energy from outside?
Also the first time ever I heard about the Sziklai configuration. Is that of Russian origins? Never seen it in any of my textbooks. Or did you name it?
Only 2V FVD!!
I am still busy doing the pcb layout. I dont like building such a big circuit by soldering component legs together.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:55 AM
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Stevan
Very nice informative document. Specially the specs on the MJL and the information about the dicharge pulse. A very quick pulse at 30Ma!!! because of the sharp leading edge. How true is that and how do you get to that information or is it to mathamatical? Must be the same thing they get with spark gaps. Is this actually drawing energy from outside?
Also the first time ever I heard about the Sziklai configuration. Is that of Russian origins? Never seen it in any of my textbooks. Or did you name it?
Only 2V FVD!!
I am still busy doing the pcb layout. I dont like building such a big circuit by soldering component legs together.
The man
The configuration in detail

The 30A capture will be (hopefully) in attached picture:
And the 4A DC calibration procedure also?


I just put the pieces together
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File Type: jpg TS-spike-capture.jpg (458.3 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg DC-Amp-scope-cal.jpg (314.7 KB, 69 views)
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Old 04-15-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schpankme View Post
Stevan,

Interesting circuit and nicely documented; it reminded me of one from past experiments (see attached file from my notes).

Thank you,

Schpankme

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." -- Richard P. Feynman
Schpankme,
could You please revide Your circuit to comform closer to the "usual" standards:
where a wire crosses forming a "node" it is to be marked with a circle, where they are crossing without contact, there is none?
Or will You wait until I make an try for You?
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Old 04-15-2010, 03:21 PM
Schpankme Schpankme is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevanC View Post
Schpankme,
could You please revide Your circuit to comform closer to the "usual" standards:
Stevan,

The circuit has been updated as requested. Note this circuit came from my 2001 notes and was quickly recreated (lazily) in MS Paint.

Schpankme

“You can't teach people to be lazy - either they have it, or they don't.” -- Dagwood Bumstead
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File Type: jpg Schpankme_high-voltage_Battery Charger.jpg (16.9 KB, 56 views)
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Last edited by Schpankme; 04-16-2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: updated circuit
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  #2550  
Old 04-15-2010, 05:05 PM
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darkwizard darkwizard is offline
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This is my research amplificator.JPG

When you close the switch the spike is developed, that is why some people uses resistors to charge the cap, but the resistor transfer the energy into heat, now with a coil you can transduce it into real power.

High inductance, very low impedance coil.
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Last edited by darkwizard; 04-15-2010 at 05:09 PM.
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