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  #2461  
Old 03-22-2010, 10:51 AM
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The one in post 2459. Caps only
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  #2462  
Old 03-22-2010, 11:01 AM
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The one in post 2459. Caps only
Yes.
And i have done it in several setups.
Unfortunately diodes eats potential.

Here i did another test on the subject:
YouTube - Tesla-switch part 7
I will redo this test using better equipment when time permits.

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  #2463  
Old 03-22-2010, 11:59 AM
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Nil said...Unfortunately diodes eats potential.
Thats why have been encouraging a switching solution. Solid state relays or something low resistants. Switching also allows for a timely event.

Solid state relay Schematic

Matt
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  #2464  
Old 03-22-2010, 12:06 PM
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If you use series dual shottkey diodes like the one's in PC switching power supplies you won't loose to much potential as the voltage drop over them are only about 0.2v and even less if you parallel them. The MBR3045ct diodes can handle 30A at 45V.
So with 4 caps you will only loose 0.6v in series and it looks like 0.4V in parallel.
This is what I thought the circuit can look like.
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  #2465  
Old 03-23-2010, 07:52 AM
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Cap diode Series to parallel switch

I put together 2 caps and 3 diodes to test this principle this morning and it does indeed works like that. I charged them with 2 batteries to 24v and when you remove the batteries , you measure 12v over the cap ready to be dumped to a load. A nice little current doubler.
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  #2466  
Old 03-23-2010, 01:36 PM
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Whats the input / output ratio like?

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  #2467  
Old 03-23-2010, 01:49 PM
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It was just a manual test to see how it works. Only measured voltge.
I ordered a panel ammeter and will test as soon as I installed the diodes into my relay cap setup.
I'm sure you can use Shottkey diodes in your capacitor bank instead of relays. Much easier to test with anyway.
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  #2468  
Old 03-23-2010, 09:29 PM
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It looks like it is working as expected.
I made a few changes on the circuit.
The cap over the relay coil are 47uf to keep the relay closer for a shorter time, otherwise the 470uf on the input side charge up to high and cause problems.
I only used 4 x 15 000uf caps. When in series they are only 3750uF and they charge up very quickly to about 75V when the relay switch and dump the then parallel caps (60 000uF) with about 18V to the batteries.
It dumps twice every second.
The 4 parallel batteries that were full from previous tests ,resting voltage were 13.45V and after pulsing for 30 sec the surface voltage over them went up to 15.5v.
I would only love to know what the current pulses are as I am still waiting for my panel ammeter. When the wire from the battery terminals came loose it made a large spike.
The relay does not spark at all with the faster switching.
I must say that the inputs to the SSG and joule thief that drives this charger are 24V as I needed good radiant pulses to charge this caps up fast enough.
I am not going to leave it on overnight. To scared that something will go wrong.
Here is the latest diagram
Thank you Hob for the diode circuit idea!!
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  #2469  
Old 03-23-2010, 10:46 PM
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Howdy.

It sounds like its been determined that there is a SS SG or similar on the input being used as the source to charge up the two caps (or however many) in series and then discharge them in parallel into the battery or load.

I finally got the pin header installed and made the cable for the additional transistor arrays and I've rigged the system to charge in parallel two caps and then discharge these two caps in series into a battery as load.

Input shows 2.4amp pulses... output shows 1.2amp pulses... there is pretty much always a 2:1 constant between input amp readings on the analog ammeter and output amp readings from the same analog ammeter.

To go it the reverse and charge in series discharge in parallel the only way to get above the load charge battery at 12volts is to push a minimum of ~13volts into each cap, more like 15volts if you account for losses in junctions of the semiconductors perhaps. This means that at two caps in series you have to reach a peak charge volts of at least 30 volts. For four caps all in series its at least 60 volts. etc.

This can't be done with 18volts and 3amps "direct" from the DC supply source without doing some switching or SS SG type front end on the system. The one method was to take the 18volts and make an initial stage where you charge two caps in parallel with 18volts then put them in series to discharge into the two caps that are in series on stage 2 to be charged to the 36volts-ish, which then are put back in parallel and discharged into the charge battery at 18volts. However if C1/C2 in stage one are say 10,000uF, and C3/C4 in stage two are also 10,000uF, what was the difference of just isolating the parallel charge into the first pair of caps to then discharge to load directly? The only way I can see that as being functional would be if the stage 1 caps were like 10,000uF and the stage 2 caps were 1,000,000uF and the voltage passed forward was retained and not adjusted to more current and less volts due the skew in capacity. Unless someone has logic or benching that shows this latter skew works, I don't know how it could and thus haven't tried it.

The SS SG tho, that could be used to charge up the source caps in series to whatever target voltage... the only variable then is time taken to reach that voltage which is dependant on how the SS SG is laid out and how much current density/power is behind it. Really the SS Sg or some variant is the only way I can see that the series placed caps can get to a voltage higher than the charge batteries own voltage causing a current to flow into the battery, since at 18vdc source into two caps in series ends up being 9 volts in parallel in each cap. Just not gonna cut it. (unless I'm not understanding the goal properly, perhaps we want the inverse charge to press back upon the caps? I dunno... )

Is there any chance the capacitors internal resistance might be part of the issue here too in terms of matching impedances of the internal resistance of the battery to the internal resistance of the capacitor?

Take it easy,
Gene
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  #2470  
Old 03-24-2010, 07:12 AM
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Thank you Hob for the diode circuit idea!!
My intention with the S/P-caps was to spike them directly from a coil,
but you might have found another use for them,
i don't know, cool anyway.

What about the P/S-coils?

/Hob
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  #2471  
Old 03-24-2010, 08:54 AM
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They are spiked from a ssg coil.
Iwill still look into the diagram of the P-S coil
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  #2472  
Old 03-24-2010, 10:49 AM
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genessc @ It sounds like its been determined that there is a SS SG or similar on the input being used as the source to charge up the two caps (or however many) in series and then discharge them in parallel into the battery or load.
You forgot the key element to the SSSG is that it is driven by a Tesla Switch.

This is what allow the ratio's of input out to go up. You can run a monopole on a Tesla switch and the COP of the machine goes through the roof. I do not think a SSSG or Joule thief type circuit would be any different.

I have run 1/2 farad caps in a Tesla switch and watched them run a 250 watts motor/load for 3 minutes on there own.
Thats good extension of the potential energy.

Matt
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  #2473  
Old 03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
You forgot the key element to the SSSG is that it is driven by a Tesla Switch.

This is what allow the ratio's of input out to go up. You can run a monopole on a Tesla switch and the COP of the machine goes through the roof. I do not think a SSSG or Joule thief type circuit would be any different.

I have run 1/2 farad caps in a Tesla switch and watched them run a 250 watts motor/load for 3 minutes on there own.
Thats good extension of the potential energy.

Matt
well said matt. Everyone keeps saying they can't quite get the a) tesla switch b) scalar charger c) SSG working. But i've yet to hear someone saying they combined all three and still can't get it to work.
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  #2474  
Old 03-24-2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
well said matt. Everyone keeps saying they can't quite get the a) tesla switch b) scalar charger c) SSG working. But i've yet to hear someone saying they combined all three and still can't get it to work.
I am sure Nvisser will get there soon. I want to set one up but I got much going on.

YouTube - ISCC_Running.MPG, May still be processing.
This switch has turned pretty good but it is doing weird stuff. One of which I whenever I go to run the motor it shuts the camera off.
4 attempts to complete the video and the same thing happened everytime.
I think its zapping the acyline's in the camera. It the weirdest thing I have ever seen, but I seen it 3 times now. Go figure.

Matt
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  #2475  
Old 03-25-2010, 04:57 PM
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TS powering SS SG.

Has anyone actually done what you note? I've run a mechanical SG using a static layout of the "tesla switch" principle of relative charge and that lets you charge the normal bedini charge battery as well as it charges the parallel stack acting as the low side of the potential being applied to the SG. I've not yet built the "switching tesla switch" to use that to power the Mechanical SG. (or SS SG).

The gain noted will be on two different banks of batteries... there is the normal bedini charge bank of batteries and then there will be the parallel stack of batteries acting as the low side potential from the relative charge on the staticly wired tesla switch layout.

Its not a big stretch for me to merge the actual switching tesla switch as the source to a mechanical SG I have so I will maybe look at that going forward as I've not yet managed to get decent results with the replica of the bedini solar charger attempt I'd built out.

Were you able to keep the system going for more than 3 minutes with your half farad caps? Any asymetry in cap charge vs. powering load?

Gene


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
You forgot the key element to the SSSG is that it is driven by a Tesla Switch.

This is what allow the ratio's of input out to go up. You can run a monopole on a Tesla switch and the COP of the machine goes through the roof. I do not think a SSSG or Joule thief type circuit would be any different.

I have run 1/2 farad caps in a Tesla switch and watched them run a 250 watts motor/load for 3 minutes on there own.
Thats good extension of the potential energy.

Matt
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  #2476  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:12 PM
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I have put an SSG on several my tesla switch's. It works fine.

If I get my storage shed this week I'll dig out my big monopole and set up a video to show.

Quote:
Were you able to keep the system going for more than 3 minutes with your half farad caps? Any asymetry in cap charge vs. powering load?
I never ran a monopole on a setup with caps. But I went through some tests where I hooked up 1/2 farad caps in front batteries. I turned charged the caps with the batteries every so often and switched between the caps.
It ended up using the same amount of power no matter what, so I didn't stick with it. I never used a monopole with that system as far as I can remember.
But being it is a smaller load with no BEMF present in it, it would probably last much longer. You just are factoring the rate of the caps discharge and any loss across the circuit.

The reason I think this is how it is done is simple. I have explained it. But basically its the only marriage of the 2 things I can think of that would perform that way and be a "Pure Negative Energy Charge" Note the quites.

What is in the middle of the 2 I am not sure. It may be some sort of transformer or capacitor.

I would be willing to bet money Mr Johns got more up his sleave that can be imagined so of course we can't expect the performance of these to match his but you should be able to see real quik if thats the direction thats worth taking.

Cheers
Matt
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  #2477  
Old 03-25-2010, 11:41 PM
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@Genessc i've made a proof of concept hybrid bedini tesla switch. Check out Heretical Builders - Powered by vBulletin generators hybrid thread or my videos on youtube as inquorate. Cheers
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  #2478  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:07 PM
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It looks like it is working as expected.
I only used 4 x 15 000uf caps. When in series they are only 3750uF and they charge up very quickly to about 75V when the relay switch and dump the then parallel caps (60 000uF) with about 18V to the batteries.
It dumps twice every second.
Thank you Hob for the diode circuit idea!!
I received a 15A panel meter today. The setup as above pulse at 8A every 0.5 to 1 second. When I install another zener to make it switch at a higher voltage like 120V, the amp reading goes up to around 10A, but of coarse it switch much slower.
Then I removed two caps and only left 2 x 15000uf in circuit. It charged so fast up to 120v in series that the relay started to switch very fast with about no energy passed to the batteries.
The next step will be to add two more 15 000uf caps. 6 in total and see what the results will be.
I am looking into the par/series coil setup that Hob posted to try and run 2 or more SS SSG coils like that to see if I get faster charging on the series caps.
This will take some time but I will be back with results.
I think that my batteries are conditioned now but will do it a bit longer.
I recieved my PICAXE today The second post from the UK only took 8 days.
So I think when I start testing on the full TS again I will try to see if my batteries last any longer than when in parallel when driving a small inverter and 11W cfl bulb.
I will leave the self charging bit till we get guidance again or until Leroy cracks it! Way to go Leroy!
To get the ser/par cap bank to deliver enough energy from a 17V, 3A solar array to deliver 10A pulses to a battery bank I need a lot more of clever circuits to deliver good strong radiant pulses ... I think.
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:30 PM
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Whats the Load on the primary power supply?

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Old 03-27-2010, 07:50 AM
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Whats the Load on the primary power supply?

Matt
High I think. I use 2 supplies.One to drive a SSG from a 24V supply and the other one is a huge 18V ac transformer and bridge driving a SS joule thief circuit that runs quite hot. At this stage I only try to get enough radiant to try and get the charger part to work correctly.
But I will measure it some time.
I finished a 9 wire coil yesterday. One trigger and 8 drive. Still busy with the pc board that must contain the 8 transistors and other components. That should give me enough radiant energy and a good indication off how much I need and how much power it draws. I will use it in a solid state mode as I do not have a large wheel yet. I did buy a lot of ceramic magnets though.
Need more time!

I measured the current drawn. You must remember the ssg and joule thief are adjusted to give max output and not for efficiency.
The ssg draws 16.4W. 16.6V x 617mA
The joule thief draws 18.12W. 21.45V x 845mA
Together they draw 34.5W continuously.
The pulsar discharge about 7A @ 19V every 1 sec. That is not continiously so I dont know how to compare it.
JB's solar charger draws current from the supply in pulses . The same time intervals as that the charger supplies.
So he probably don't even use radiant generators.
I don't know how else to charge series caps up to a high voltage.
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  #2481  
Old 03-27-2010, 11:50 AM
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High I think. I use 2 supplies.One to drive a SSG from a 24V supply and the other one is a huge 18V ac transformer and bridge driving a SS joule thief circuit that runs quite hot. At this stage I only try to get enough radiant to try and get the charger part to work correctly.
But I will measure it some time.
I finished a 9 wire coil yesterday. One trigger and 8 drive. Still busy with the pc board that must contain the 8 transistors and other components. That should give me enough radiant energy and a good indication off how much I need and how much power it draws. I will use it in a solid state mode as I do not have a large wheel yet. I did buy a lot of ceramic magnets though.
Need more time!

I measured the current drawn. You must remember the ssg and joule thief are adjusted to give max output and not for efficiency.
The ssg draws 16.4W. 16.6V x 617mA
The joule thief draws 18.12W. 21.45V x 845mA
Together they draw 34.5W continuously.
The pulsar discharge about 7A @ 19V every 1 sec. That is not continiously so I dont know how to compare it.
JB's solar charger draws current from the supply in pulses . The same time intervals as that the charger supplies.
So he probably don't even use radiant generators.
I don't know how else to charge series caps up to a high voltage.
Vissie,

I'm not going to say this is correct, but I would compare it in this way if I were doing it, and maybe this will make sense to you. Maybe it is crap.

I assume you are measuring the current with analog meters, but in essence the analog meter will measure the average current through the system when measuring the SSG, for instance. So, since that is a constant train of pulses, then the average makes sense and you can use that number off the meter. The problem comes in with the big pulse every one second which only lasts for an instant (I assume). It isn't giving you the instantaneous current on the meter, it is the average current, so it should be greater than 7A that you are sending into the battery. I'd think you need to put a 1 milli ohm or so resistor in there and measure the voltage across that very small resistance on a scope. You'll still have to approximate the current and power, but you'll get a better idea of the actual current and power passed into the battery and how long that takes. So, I'd measure the length of time for that pulse and then take several points along that scope trace and approximate the total "current" and the "power" over 1 second or however long it takes to get another "pulse". (The area under the curve is the total current (V/R)). At least you have an approximation of the "instantaneous" power out and can calculate as to what it would be over 1 second. Then you can compare apples to apples, at least this is what I'd do.

Of course, you know the Joules contained in the caps too (from starting V to battery V), so if you just knew how long it takes to discharge the cap into the batteries and the length of time from one pulse to the next, you could calculate average power delivered too in 1 second.

I think I know what you are trying to do, but I'm not sure it is the energy transfer that is important, but the way in which it is delivered, i.e. in impulses.

The following has nothing to do with what you wrote Vissie, but falls in line with the SSG and some things that JB has written.

The following are my thoughts on what JB has written in this forum and in other places, not what JB has actually written. So if I say something that sounds like JB wrote it, take it as my opinion (with a grain of salt) as to what he wrote:

I believe that JB has written, "You need 1 amp at DC." Well, in your case above, the SSG is only "using" .617ma, then I would have originally thought...I need more current going through there, I need at least 1 amp? But I don't think JB is talking about the average current, I believe he is talking about the current during those pulses. So, if the pulse is only on for 25% of the total time, then the actual current through the system during that on time is 0.617 / 0.25 (in the case you mention above). If the pulse is on for 50% and off for 50%, then it is 0.617 / 0.5 or 1.234A. You have made at least 1 amp at DC in either of the two cases above. So you are meeting JBs 1 amp at DC. I am not sure why I thought about this in regards to your post or even why I felt the need to post it, but there it is anyway.

Leroy
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:23 PM
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Crash and burn

Leroy
I think the "1A at DC" was the spec for the safe operating area of the transistor at the specific voltage you are using it.

I have to report the the 7A pulses are not true. They supplied the wrong shunts with the ammeter. I think it is more like 1.5A
I will have to calibrate it with some constant loads and my digital meter. I do have 5 shunts now that I can use to get the correct combination.
Anyway i still think that the charging are good and I get more out of them after every charge
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Old 03-27-2010, 09:33 PM
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Back to basics

This afternoon I decided to go back to straightforward parallel caps. No switching from series to par. and no radiant inputs
I used a 24v power supply as input for my pulsar.
6 x 15 000uf caps in parallel. (90 000uF)
Switched by relay every 1 second.
This is as simple as it can get. Charging a 12v battery with a 23v pulses.
I sorted the panel meter problem out, But I think they respond a bit slow to really show what is happening.
On the input side it pulse at 7.5A. At the output it pulse 7A.
I have a cheap Suzuki motorbike ammeter that I got with a Wouter hydroxy cell. This thing can go plus, minus 30A and it responds very quick.
It obviously overshoots a lot but when I connect it on the input side it pulse up to 15A. When I connect it to the output side it pulse up to 30A. Double the input current!
I think this meter shows what really happens with this pulsar as you cannot see it on the normal panel ammeter.
The charging up of the caps takes a while , while the discharging into the battery is very quick.
Anyway the charging is impressive.
Tomorrow I will wire my 2 solar panels in parallel to a 30 000uf cap and use that as input. Together they should deliver about 1.4A @ 17V.
Then I will get a better idea of what this pulsar can do.
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Old 03-28-2010, 09:05 AM
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Input vs output

Another reason why I thing there is some gain on this switch is the temperatures on the input and output tracks of the PC board that contains this caps and relay.
The track are 2mm wide. The input tracks are cool to the touch while the output tracks burns my finger.
Makes you wonder.
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Old 03-28-2010, 12:15 PM
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nvisser nvisser is offline
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Solar panel input

I connected my two solar panels in parallel. A 10W and a 14W.
Together they charge a 30 000uf cap up to about 20V.
The 'simple" switch runs on only the solar panels today and even with lots of cloud cover and the occasional sun it clicks away happily.
With a 16v zener it switches when the cap bank (90 000 uF) reach 16V and dumps it to the battery bank.
I replaced the parallel cap on the relay coil with a 47uF to keep the cap bank charge time to the minimum to fill them.
When the sun comes out it clicks twice a second. With lots of cloud cover it clicks about every 5 seconds.
The input current on the panel meter measures just over 1A with each pulse. The output on the Suzuki ammeter is about half of what it was with the 26v psu on the I/P.
As I said the Suzuki ammeter responds very quick . It goes to about 10A with the very short pulses.
The O/P pcb tracks does not run hot with this setup.
I think this is where I will stop experimenting with other configuration of the solar charger. This simple arrangement works best for me. Later it can be updated to solid state with the bipolar switches.
I have to say that there are no sparking whatsoever on the relay contacts.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:37 AM
ausev ausev is offline
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Back again

Hi All,

Hope you are all well and life is treating you good.

I have been away for a while with my day job keeping me busy but it is good to see the work on this continues. Congrats Matthew on getting the relay setup working.

I had a really wierd thing happen today.

I was testing my circuit and my multimeters were sitting near it but the leads were NOT connected to it yet one of my meters maxed out on 1000 DCV and the other on 50 ACV went to 50.

The other wierd thing is I am using a breadboard circuit and the metal base of the breadboard gave me a nasty electric shock.

The air in my study also became electric.

I am thinking this is some form of induction or wireless transmission of energy going on.

Then all of a sudden everything just stopped working. Now trying to debug my circuit again.

What gives?

Regards,

AusEv
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:08 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Check the batteries in your meter. If it keeps happening switch them to a lithium ion battery.

More than likely the breadboard just screwed up some kinda way.

But this mechanical relay version I am running right now will suck the juice out of alkaline batteries through mid air, if I am switching any faster than about 1 seconds.

I don't know why. I just switched the batteries to lithiums.

Matt
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:36 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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More Good News

Where did we all go....?

Anyway..
I have been running my switch with all the components planned except the generator. So far.
I have 6 115 amp hour deep cycle's. 3 on each side to make a 24 volt potential. They are just off the shelf. I have not even put a charge in them.
The motor I have been running with a mechanical load to force it to pull 15 amps at 24 volt.
I have made runs on the setup. First was about an hour I didn't record it but it was good. The second was an hour, I did not loose anything after a 3 hour rest of the batteries.

Today I ran 8 hours and rested 4. NO LOSS.

Left Side
Start
A. 12.71
B. 12.68
C. 12.72
Finish after rest
A. 12.71
B. 12.69
C. 12.72

Right Side
Start.
C. 12.78
D. 12.78
E. 12.64

Finish
C. 12.78
D. 12.79
E. 12.62

The batteries do not climb above about 12.90 at any given time. I was running 25 seconds each way.
I am going to do another through the night for a total of 24 hours and see if any consumption shows up.

At this rate I do not need to add charge to the batteries, but even if the totals were to start to fall off, after eight hours the amount of supplement power needed to maintain these batteries charge is easy to come by.
I am going to get the generator mounted up. I want to max the batteries out.
Then start pulling other loads in addition. An inverter or some other batteries for charging.

I have also started to purchase all the parts I need to build a version with the Solid State Relays.

If anybody is interested in helping, I need a PCB designed and few bugs worked out. PM me with reference. Payed or Bartered Job.

Cheers
Matt
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Old 03-30-2010, 01:05 AM
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blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
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It's been awhile...

Sorry guys, I've been away from test bench due to "professional development" Waiting for 40A SS relays and slowly populating Pulsinator board (according to Bit's schem. ). I need to read back all pages I have missed and catch up since you've made some interesting discoveries when I was absent This is great place


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Old 03-30-2010, 05:53 AM
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Matt
I can do PCB artwork for you but it will be on pcb express. You just have to download the small program and then print 2 copies with a laser printer on transparencies and put the to on top of each other to get a nice dark transparency.
Mail me the diagram if you are interested. No charge involved.
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Last edited by nvisser; 03-30-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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