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  #2191  
Old 02-18-2010, 04:02 AM
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ldissing ldissing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit's-n-Bytes View Post
... but I have only been able to "Sustain" battery voltage while running a small load (1157's)...
So, was that with your circuit that contained PNPs? What was the size of the batteries you were using?

Leroy

P.S. People all learn in different ways. If someone showed me something and told me why it worked, I'd be able to do it again, and extrapolate from there and do other things. I will keep trying to get a sustaining system (your goal and mine are the same), but it may take me 30 years which is just a waste.
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  #2192  
Old 02-18-2010, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
So, was that with your circuit that contained PNPs? What was the size of the batteries you were using?

Leroy

P.S. People all learn in different ways. If someone showed me something and told me why it worked, I'd be able to do it again, and extrapolate from there and do other things. I will keep trying to get a sustaining system (your goal and mine are the same), but it may take me 30 years which is just a waste.
So far, sustainable loads with the NPN's, and PNP's. Able to charge with the "Pulsinator II" but not drive a load yet. Batt types are the ES5L-BS and the 210 CCA garden tractor batts.

Bit's
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  #2193  
Old 02-18-2010, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit's-n-Bytes View Post
Here is the scoop, I have designed, built, assembled and yes "Destroyed" many configurations, but I have only been able to "Sustain" battery voltage while running a small load (1157's). I have been able to charge caps through transformer action and direct that energy into a load. That said, "working" you bet, but am I satisfied, "Not at all". My goal is to be able to "charge" a battery bank of 4 batts and run an inverter to supply power to my home. I will achieve this (mainly because I am very persistent). I would also like to share a very pleasant conversation that I had with John last week regarding the information he shares in this forum. John is all about people "learning" and "exploring". It's to easy when the answers are given to the test, but if that is the case, do we "ever learn". He commented that there are many brilliant minds on this forum and with the "Clues" that we have been given, "We will obtain success". I am just as guilty as the next for coming up with different ideas on how to achieve our goal, but after speaking with John, as long as we understand the "fundamentals" there are no limits. After all, he will be the first to admit "He is an analog guy", but appreciates the digital age. Simply stated, John has not let us down. He has given us the opportunity to excel!
Thank Bits
I will keep that in mind.
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  #2194  
Old 02-18-2010, 05:02 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit's-n-Bytes View Post
... I would also like to share a very pleasant conversation that I had with John last week regarding the information he shares in this forum. John is all about people "learning" and "exploring". It's to easy when the answers are given to the test, but if that is the case, do we "ever learn". He commented that there are many brilliant minds on this forum and with the "Clues" that we have been given, "We will obtain success". I am just as guilty as the next for coming up with different ideas on how to achieve our goal, but after speaking with John, as long as we understand the "fundamentals" there are no limits. After all, he will be the first to admit "He is an analog guy", but appreciates the digital age. Simply stated, John has not let us down. He has given us the opportunity to excel!
Well put Bit's. Frankly, I would be disappointed if John came to my shed, tweaked a few things, said "There you go, easy!" and left, because I would not have learnt anything from it. I'd get more satisfaction if I figured it out by myself with the clues that John and the other experimenters had given me.

I've has a similar conversation with John. As the old saying goes, "...teach a man to fish..."

I've researched John's stuff for a few years now and successfully built most of his devices. The only ones that didn't work was because I didn't build it right, not because I was given false or misleading information.

All fun and games this...back 2 da bench!


John K.
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  #2195  
Old 02-18-2010, 05:17 AM
stonewater stonewater is offline
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charge or run

is the question whether or not we should try and charge and run at the same time, or realistically can we charge, turn off the TS and switch to run, then back to charge? are we using up the available potential with the load? JB spoke of a box he created in the jenkins interviews of just such a device it would run, then recharge itself..... it was some kind of mic preamp for mobile recording that ran of nicads. I will try and find the quote.

Tom C
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  #2196  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
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Spikes

Last night I saw something for the first time. I got the Flip flop working for a while. Say about 3 minutes before it started going nuts again.
I measured with the scope from the positive side of a series bank to the other side of the load. That means battery, series transistor, battery, parallel transistor and load. Nearly the whole path. Only the schotkey diodes were excluded.
With a 50% duty cycle on a 1 sec pulse /side I got a normal square wave going to about 18v. That is 24V voltage drop over the 2 transistors and the 12v 21W bulb.
When I took the duty cycle down to around 40% I think, spikes appeared on the end of each 18V square wave, The spikes voltage went up from 18V to 23V .
I`m not sure if this means anything and the time was to short to see what it does to the batteries
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  #2197  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:53 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonewater View Post
is the question whether or not we should try and charge and run at the same time, or realistically can we charge, turn off the TS and switch to run, then back to charge? are we using up the available potential with the load? JB spoke of a box he created in the jenkins interviews of just such a device it would run, then recharge itself..... it was some kind of mic preamp for mobile recording that ran of nicads. I will try and find the quote.

Tom C
Tom C,

Ideally, the TS should charge the batteries at low frequency (2Hz) and run the load at high frequency (60Hz), since that is what JB said on the Jenkins interview.

I'd be happy just to charge the batteries at this stage and worry about running a load once the first part is fugured out.


John K.
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  #2198  
Old 02-18-2010, 10:00 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Tesla Switch

Hi folks,

I figured out why the 55W bulb was not lit the same from each side. It ended up being a dead 1N914 diode between the H11D1 and Q5 - a 1 cent part. Goodness knows how long it had been dead and I was chasing my tail!

So, make sure you check all your parts before throwing away a particular setup. You might have had it but because a 1 cent part was dead you believed the circuit wasn't working or you had a bad connection somewhere!

Testing has resumed, all parts have been confirmed as "working".

Beleive it or not, the batteries are slowly charging up, even after 15 minutes run time. I'll let it go overnight and report back in the morning.


John K.
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  #2199  
Old 02-18-2010, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Last night I saw something for the first time. I got the Flip flop working for a while. Say about 3 minutes before it started going nuts again.
I measured with the scope from the positive side of a series bank to the other side of the load. That means battery, series transistor, battery, parallel transistor and load. Nearly the whole path. Only the schotkey diodes were excluded.
With a 50% duty cycle on a 1 sec pulse /side I got a normal square wave going to about 18v. That is 24V voltage drop over the 2 transistors and the 12v 21W bulb.
When I took the duty cycle down to around 40% I think, spikes appeared on the end of each 18V square wave, The spikes voltage went up from 18V to 23V .
I`m not sure if this means anything and the time was to short to see what it does to the batteries
Vissie, I am able to see those spikes as well.

Bit's
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  #2200  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
gigo gigo is offline
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Self-charging batteries

Hi everyone.

I came across this pdf file a few days ago and it has a (Tesla type) self-charging battery system, using four 12V batteries, a high amperage rotary switch and a pulse transformer. Very easy schematic.

It uses the transformer to match the "load" to the Tesla switch, and it runs at 536 Hz.

Here's a quote:
"In effect the series 24 volt charges the 12 volt parallel units within 1/536 of a cycle and immediately change over to discharge across the other configuration. At resonance the batteries act as mere capacitors while the space field around the conductors act as inductive devices to provide the pulsing current. The transforming ratio of the secondary can be designed to match the load plus losses of the circuit thus imposing no power-load on the batteries. Experimental models have been test run successfully."

It's a HUGE booklet but the Tesla switch starts on page 377. Does anyone know how to copy the 5 pages into a small pdf file, or just post snapshots of the pages?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Selfcharging Battery System on page 377 sankhyakarika.pdf (1.86 MB, 142 views)
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  #2201  
Old 02-18-2010, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by John_K View Post
Well put Bit's. Frankly, I would be disappointed if John came to my shed, tweaked a few things, said "There you go, easy!" and left, because I would not have learnt anything from it....
John K.
Yes, but if he tweaked a few things and said..."This is why it works, and this is why your way did not, then you'd know and you'd be able to duplicate it for any size system". AND, you'd have learned something.

Telling someone "the" answer is NOT a NON-learning experience, it can be just as beneficial as "finding" the answer, it just takes a lot less time and money. This is the big point, time and money, I'm duplicating what you're doing, someone is duplicating what Bits is doing, Inquorate is doing, etc. If it is the wrong thing, then everybody is burning time and money, but that doesn't mean they aren't learning someting. JB will not say, so we'll just have to figure it out. Hopefully, once someone figures it out, they will tell everybody else, but I doubt that. If one has to figure it out, that someone will want everybody else to figure it out, there is never a free lunch, right?

I think I finally found the answer, the reason it charges, how to get it into recharge mode and can run a load (10W 12V bulb) but I will let it run for a while and let you all know after the results of today. It should be obvious to us all, but it took me months to (hopefully) figure it out.

Leroy
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  #2202  
Old 02-18-2010, 04:12 PM
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Tesla Switch info

Here is a smaller PDF of the important info from the "Self Charging Battery System" page 377
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  #2203  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:06 PM
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"The expansion rate of C1-x times the cyclic displacement ratio
x gives 536.48 cycles per second if C is the frequency at a metre
wavelength in 1.010845 secs. If the battery current is switched on
and off sharply, in the circuit configuration shown below, the
batteries remain charged despite having a load"
Now we all knew that...LOL
Any human being can understand this pdf!!!

Only joking.
That circuit is like the last one from Cifta and John K. No diodes.
Switching frequency of 536.48Hz. Every 1.86 msec and immediately
change over to discharge. I wonder if this also applies for solid state.
With the JB solid state switching we maybe got fast switch on times but I am not sure about sharp cut off times. The commutator can give that sharp overshooting or can you call it switch bouncing?
536 cps is (536 x 60) =32 160 RPM!!! if I`m not mistaken. How do we get a motor- commutator to run at that speed?
With solid state it a walk inthe park but we dont get that fast rise and fall times. The opto`s has get a rise time of 3 usec and I think a terrible fall time.
Mosfets on the other hand driven by mosfet drivers can give rise and falltimes better then 50nano seconds. Now that is fast. Mosfet drivers also ensure that the mosfets switch on and of fully everytime
You probably will have to use a opto driving the mosfet driver and then the mosfet. I know JB doesnt like mosfets on the TS but how are we going to get the fast switching?
Tom Bearden also mentioned that nobody gets the Bedini generator to work because you need microwave switching techniques- fast rise and fall times.

Do you guys think that 536hz is the resonant frequency of a lead acid battery?
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  #2204  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:49 PM
Murlin Murlin is offline
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fast commutotor

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
"The expansion rate of C1-x times the cyclic displacement ratio
x gives 536.48 cycles per second if C is the frequency at a metre
wavelength in 1.010845 secs. If the battery current is switched on
and off sharply, in the circuit configuration shown below, the
batteries remain charged despite having a load"
Now we all knew that...LOL
Any human being can understand this pdf!!!

Only joking.
That circuit is like the last one from Cifta and John K. No diodes.
Switching frequency of 536.48Hz. Every 1.86 msec and immediately
change over to discharge. I wonder if this also applies for solid state.
With the JB solid state switching we maybe got fast switch on times but I am not sure about sharp cut off times. The commutator can give that sharp overshooting or can you call it switch bouncing?
536 cps is (536 x 60) =32 160 RPM!!! if I`m not mistaken. How do we get a motor- commutator to run at that speed?
With solid state it a walk inthe park but we dont get that fast rise and fall times. The opto`s has get a rise time of 3 usec and I think a terrible fall time.
Mosfets on the other hand driven by mosfet drivers can give rise and falltimes better then 50nano seconds. Now that is fast. Mosfet drivers also ensure that the mosfets switch on and of fully everytime
You probably will have to use a opto driving the mosfet driver and then the mosfet. I know JB doesnt like mosfets on the TS but how are we going to get the fast switching?
Tom Bearden also mentioned that nobody gets the Bedini generator to work because you need microwave switching techniques- fast rise and fall times.

Do you guys think that 536hz is the resonant frequency of a lead acid battery?
My first attempt at a high speed commutator would run at almost 550 HZ....

The 10K motor was screaming, it is a wonder everything stays balanced at that speed....200 parts spinning 10k is kinda freakishly cool....

I have been kinda snowed in for the past few weeks but version 2.0 is on the table ready to be machined.

Hopefully it will require no semiconductors at all and be able to out perform the version 1.0....we will see.....

regards,

Murlin
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  #2205  
Old 02-19-2010, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post

Do you guys think that 536hz is the resonant frequency of a lead acid battery?
Vissie,

LAB would resonate in the single MHz range, say - 1.5, for example. It is possible that 536Hz is a sub harmonic of resonant freq.


Vtech
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  #2206  
Old 02-19-2010, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Vissie,

LAB would resonate in the single MHz range, say - 1.5, for example. It is possible that 536Hz is a sub harmonic of resonant freq.


Vtech
i second that, i've seen my 1.5ah LABs ringing after the charge pulse, and unless i really zoom in on the waveform, what is actually a steep sine wave appears just as a spike

Scope shot... - Vox
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  #2207  
Old 02-19-2010, 01:53 AM
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Vallentin

You should enable private messaging....you don't have to read or respond to it!

Leroy
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  #2208  
Old 02-19-2010, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
I think I finally found the answer, the reason it charges, how to get it into recharge mode and can run a load (10W 12V bulb) but I will let it run for a while and let you all know after the results of today. It should be obvious to us all, but it took me months to (hopefully) figure it out.

Leroy
Any update Leroy?

Thanks

Bit's
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:19 AM
vallentin vallentin is offline
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You should enable private messaging....you don't have to read or respond to it!

Leroy
It is enabled, Leroy. And I read everything. All PM's are forwarded to my e-mail. Don't know what's wrong with it. Enabled, but grayed. I will check with a different browser when I'll get home, tomorrow. Here (in a hotel), they only have Opera. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit's-n-Bytes View Post
Any update Leroy?

Thanks

Bit's
I'm going to let it run for a while, no false impressions. No wine before it's time as they say!

Leroy
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Last edited by ldissing; 02-19-2010 at 03:05 AM.
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  #2211  
Old 02-19-2010, 09:55 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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PICAXE playing up?

Hello fellow PICAXE users,

I have a problem with my PICAXE-40X2, it seems it can't count to 1000. Not sure if it's just mine, so if any other PICAXE users can test this I'd appreciate it.

Here's my code:

setfreq m8
main:
let b1 = 0
let b2 = 0

do
high B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
low B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
inc b1
loop while b1 < 1000
do
high D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
low D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
inc b2
loop while b2 < 1000
goto main

The loop is supposed to move on to the next sub-routine after 1000 loops but it just keeps going with the same loop, almost like the loop does not exist for the sub-routine. My code should switch sides every 8 minutes or so, but it don't?

Let me know what you find please. The PICAEXE manual doesn't have any restrictions tehe do...loop code, but maybe it's just not documented?


John K.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:58 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Sorry for the typo's - fat fingers or too much home brew! Let me know if you can't get it...

BTW, the batteries seem to like this code, so far I've got a nett gain in voltage - but no wine before time as Lero puts it...


John K.
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  #2213  
Old 02-19-2010, 10:54 AM
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2V over

@Leroy and All,

It's really questionable.
I couldn't and can't figure out how we can get 2V over the charging battery.
To the basic and simplified circuit-only oneside circuit in this question,
let's say four batteries have 12V and voltage on load is 4V,
Every remained voltgate is on the juction drop.
That says, Voltage drop on TRs + Voltage on Load = always 12V.
When load has 4V, then drop has 8V,
When load has 3V, then drop has 9V, and so on.

So my question is how we can 2V over the charging battery on losed loop.
Am I missing something?

JANG.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:06 AM
JANGYD JANGYD is offline
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Simplified Circuit

Hi Murlin,

I read your post your succeeded on this simplified circuit.
I can't get pictures about this circuit JB said its simple
I am trying it with 1157(27W+8W on 12V) and 40A/100V diode.
JB's tips on this circuit are 3A light bulb and 25A diode or better.
I guess these high rating parts is not for current flowing, but for impedance
and something else.

How about charging rate with your simplified circuit?

JANG.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:17 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Solved the PICAXE problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_K View Post
Hello fellow PICAXE users,

I have a problem with my PICAXE-40X2, it seems it can't count to 1000. Not sure if it's just mine, so if any other PICAXE users can test this I'd appreciate it.

Here's my code:

setfreq m8
main:
let b1 = 0
let b2 = 0

do
high B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
low B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
inc b1
loop while b1 < 1000
do
high D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
low D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
inc b2
loop while b2 < 1000
goto main

The loop is supposed to move on to the next sub-routine after 1000 loops but it just keeps going with the same loop, almost like the loop does not exist for the sub-routine. My code should switch sides every 8 minutes or so, but it don't?

Let me know what you find please. The PICAEXE manual doesn't have any restrictions tehe do...loop code, but maybe it's just not documented?


John K.
Talking to myself again..,

It seems that the PICAEXE-40X2 can only count to 255. I changed my code to this:

setfreq m8
main:
let b1 = 0
let b2 = 0

do
high B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
low B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
inc b1
loop while b1 < 250
do
high D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
low D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
inc b2
loop while b2 < 250
goto main

Now it switches every 250 loops. If you can't understand the code, the "D" channnel (D.0, D.1, D.2) is the left side and the "B" channel (B.0, B.1, B.2) is the right side. So, "high B.1, D.0, D.1" means "put the left side in series and the right side in parallel" and "high D.2, B.0, B.2" means "put the right side in series and the left side in parallel".

I'll see how it goes whilst I'm catching zees and report back in the morning.


John K.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:28 AM
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:30 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldissing View Post
Yes, but if he tweaked a few things and said..."This is why it works, and this is why your way did not, then you'd know and you'd be able to duplicate it for any size system". AND, you'd have learned something.

Telling someone "the" answer is NOT a NON-learning experience, it can be just as beneficial as "finding" the answer, it just takes a lot less time and money. This is the big point, time and money, I'm duplicating what you're doing, someone is duplicating what Bits is doing, Inquorate is doing, etc. If it is the wrong thing, then everybody is burning time and money, but that doesn't mean they aren't learning someting. JB will not say, so we'll just have to figure it out. Hopefully, once someone figures it out, they will tell everybody else, but I doubt that. If one has to figure it out, that someone will want everybody else to figure it out, there is never a free lunch, right?

I think I finally found the answer, the reason it charges, how to get it into recharge mode and can run a load (10W 12V bulb) but I will let it run for a while and let you all know after the results of today. It should be obvious to us all, but it took me months to (hopefully) figure it out.

Leroy
Yes Lero, I understand what you're saying, but (I think) I've known JB for long enough that it ain't gonna happen that way. You know I have a great respect for you and your perserverence.
We will figure it out and when we do, we will have JB to thank for making us think for it.

Bit's is right, there are great minds working on solving this problem. And we're close, damn close.

Each day brings new discoveries...


John K.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:35 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
@ John_K - I do enjoy your conversations
Thanx Ben,

And I do love your quotes on your tag line, 'specially the Bill Bailey ones

(We're still on for the meet-up soon, right?)


John K.
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  #2219  
Old 02-19-2010, 11:56 AM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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Location: Sydney, Aus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_K View Post
Thanx Ben,

And I do love your quotes on your tag line, 'specially the Bill Bailey ones

(We're still on for the meet-up soon, right?)


John K.
Yep, for sure baby is coming in april, and most of the family is in west australia so I'll be driving over july-ish.

Finally moving house this week. Phew! Don't pay to be homeless and with child.
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  #2220  
Old 02-19-2010, 01:54 PM
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ldissing ldissing is offline
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_K View Post
Talking to myself again..,

It seems that the PICAEXE-40X2 can only count to 255. I changed my code to this:

setfreq m8
main:
let b1 = 0
let b2 = 0

do
high B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
low B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
inc b1
loop while b1 < 250
do
high D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
low D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
inc b2
loop while b2 < 250
goto main

Now it switches every 250 loops. If you can't understand the code, the "D" channnel (D.0, D.1, D.2) is the left side and the "B" channel (B.0, B.1, B.2) is the right side. So, "high B.1, D.0, D.1" means "put the left side in series and the right side in parallel" and "high D.2, B.0, B.2" means "put the right side in series and the left side in parallel".

I'll see how it goes whilst I'm catching zees and report back in the morning.


John K.
John K.,

It is an 8 bit device, so by default, the type would be a byte. I'm not a basic coder, but there must be a way to tell it, that B1 and B2 are 16 bits, or 32 bits. I can do this in C easily even with an 8 bit device (but bigger types than 8 bits take more instruction cycles).

Of course, a loop within a loop could get you to 1000 too, loop 1 time for 100 and loop 2 for 10 times.

And this is the problem with a digital computer. You coded this pretty well, because both sides are on and off the same amount of time (although, the off time is a little greater than the on time for both sides). If your code were turning on one side and then off, then the other side on and off, then incrementing a variable and then doing the loop, the off times would not be exactly the same. What ever speed the PICAXE runs (my chip's internal clock is 8MHz) at would cause an extra slight delay in the "off" time for the second side. Why?, because of the incrementing of the variable and the loop (which is a jump or branch instruction in assembly), so one side would get a little more rest than the other, which might not be much, but could throw off the results.

So, this would be not have been as good a routine for the batteries

do
high B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
low B.1, D.0, D.1
pause 250
high D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
low D.2, B.0, B.2
pause 250
inc b1 ** causes an extra delay on this side (2nd side)
loop while b1 < 250 ** causes an extra delay on this side (2nd side)

You get this right?

Lero

P.S. This is why I use interrupts
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Last edited by ldissing; 02-19-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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