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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 05:40 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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I think You're right. I'll stop this nonsense now.
Reuse of current is not possible by slow switching, which is comforting, it's too simple.

Last edited by nilrehob : 01-19-2009 at 07:53 AM. Reason: clearifying *this*
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 06:14 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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I took a closer look at Bedini's version today and redraw it omitting the controller for the switching.
It's quite different from the one in PJK's guide.
Six extra diodes, of which two looks unnecessary, and the two capacitors are turned around.

Does anyone know why B has chosen to do it in this way?
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Last edited by nilrehob : 01-19-2009 at 06:21 AM. Reason: more text
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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I suspect its for even flow to the batteries. Also allows for a smaller diode as oppossed to one big one.
The diodes take a beaten when switch rapidly.

Matt
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2009, 03:48 PM
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I made a really simple TS with a relay and 12V 1.3Ah batteries and connected a large coil to it, switching at ~8Hz.
The coil was a unused roll of ~400m Cu-wire #23 so it had an air core.

The BEMF spikes was marvelous and I could lit a neon by only connecting one end of it on to anything in the circuit and the other end in the air, especially if I hold the other end it would light up nice.
The relay got crazy once in a while.
I moved the coil to another room, 5m away, but nothing changed.
The voltage on the batteries was jumping, probably not only up, not sure, none of my meters was behaving properly.

Not a very productive circuit I guess, but quite fun actually.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2009, 03:46 PM
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I have made some changes to my simple variant of the TS (and will make a video soon, have just prepared an account at youtube).

This one captures the spikes from the coil, although I'm not quite sure its necessary as there was spikes all over the place even before I added the diod's.

Then I put neons in series with all the diod's, just for fun, made myself a neon-sign a'la Vegas
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 01:21 AM
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nilrehob, thanks for the update look forward to the vids mate,

Ash
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 03:31 PM
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Two vids out!
Nothing too special, but still...
YouTube - Tesla-switch part 1
YouTube - Tesla-switch part 2
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 03:43 PM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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@nilrehob : Nice effort to advance towards a solid state solution!
As of now, you are connecting ALL 4 batteries AT ONCE to the relay once the 555 switches, if i perceive it correctly?
Did you make a long-term test and did the batteries actually store the charge?
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 03:43 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Thats nice looking.
Two issue with spikes you gotta watch is. Are they just Voltage Increases from the coil.
You can tell by watching the in and out waveforms seperatly if you have 2 scope leads. Whats going in to the coil and whats going out.

If they are BEMF spike you need to wire in a way to send the negative spike to ground or too a capacitor to seperate the energy. 2 spike together don't do you any good once in the battery. It took me a while of playing around to figure out. But if you look at a Monopole you'll see what I mean, 1 spike. The true spike will show up first the second will trail after. It might be either spike.
I don't know to switch them off solid state just mechanically.

Nice stuff
Matt
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 04:00 PM
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@Xenomorph

its switching just like a TS, bat 1+2 in series and bats 3+4 in parallell, then switching to bat 1+2 in parallell and bats 3+4 in series and then back again.

Its no use testing for long term yet as the use of a relay is not optimal at all.
With a relay you go -12 to 0 to +12 to 0 and then -12 again with long time on -12 and +12 where it should be the other way around with long time on 0 and short pulses on -12 and +12 just to kick the coil.

@Matthew

I don't understand exactly about the two spikes. Doesn't the diodes in the 2nd video take care of that?
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 04:45 PM
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@Xenomorph

In the current setup, on the four-pole-relay, I use one pole as on-off, two as on-on and one as off-on.
I have to get my hands on an second relay and another 555 timer (or two), i think, connect the two timers in some way (i have to study the 555 some more) to puls each relay in turn using three switches as off-on in each relay.
Then I will run it for a long-term test.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 04:50 PM
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@Matthew

I've done some additional thinking , and yes, I'm pretty sure my setup with the diodes handles both spikes, the positive and the negative.
If that is what you mean?
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 06:14 PM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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@Matthew & @Xenomorph

BTW, I forgot to say thanks for the positive feedback, I'm just really focusing on this switch thing, thats all
I'm always like this, you'll see...
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2009, 06:14 PM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
@Matthew

I've done some additional thinking , and yes, I'm pretty sure my setup with the diodes handles both spikes, the positive and the negative.
If that is what you mean?
I agree... I think your circuit very cleverly handles the spikes

I am not yet certain of how the tesla switch maintains the charge in the batteries... not sure if I agree with Mat's interpretation, but then again he is one of the few who have reported a successful replication.

Personally I think it has more to do with battery resonance than charge recycling. Lets say 1 coulomb of charge flows through the circuit per switch: that means one coulombs is discharging BOTH the batteries that are in series, and the batteries in parellel are only receiving half a coulomb each. So two coulombs in total is being sacrificed on the series batteries and one coulomb in total is being recovered by the parellel batteries. Conventionally this system can not work by recycling current/charge.

Your circuit will have much higher efficiency in charge recovery (eg, 2 coulombs leave, 1.5 coulombs recovered), but will it produce the same effect that allows the tesla switch to operate? I don't know.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:44 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
I agree... I think your circuit very cleverly handles the spikes
Thanks Sephiroth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
I am not yet certain of how the tesla switch maintains the charge in the batteries...
I'm not sure either, but I'm testing it as I write this, switching only when volt & amp gets low, it will take some days to do, especially since I have to compare the slow TS with conventionally having the 4 batteries in parallel (so I have to do at least two runs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Personally I think it has more to do with battery resonance than charge recycling.
I agree. Resonance and the spikes seems most interesting to me.
I'm starting with the spikes though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
So two coulombs in total is being sacrificed on the series batteries and one coulomb in total is being recovered by the parellel batteries.
Isn't one coulomb going from the bottom battery to the top battery of the batteries in series, and then one coulomb from the top of the two to the batteries in parallel where it gets split in half?
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:18 AM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Remember all current really does is discharge our batteries

Let's put it another way... Let's say the circuit is using one amp. when the batteries are in series 1 amp will be flowing through BOTH batteries discharging BOTH of them at the rate of one amp.

but the batteries in parellel will only get 1/2 an amp each to recharge them since there is only 1 amp flowing through the circuit in total and that is split between the two charging batteries...

so when the batteries are powering the load, conventionally the batteries in series will discharge twice as fast as the charging batteries charge.
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:42 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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That makes sense, I think You're right.
Even if the batteries was perfect, with no losses whatsoever, no charge-recycling will ever work.
I don't think charge-recycling is what the TS is about.
I'll continue with my practical test to prove it.

Last edited by nilrehob : 01-23-2009 at 07:26 AM.
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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I've done some additional thinking , and yes, I'm pretty sure my setup with the diodes handles both spikes, the positive and the negative.
If that is what you mean?
I have seen these spikes travel through diodes and bridges with no loss in size. The point alot people miss is if these 2 spikes both hit the charge battery at the same time or near the same time they have the potential to cancel each other. Effectivly becoming a ground. This can happen at the diode, in the diode and later in charge battery.
Thats why they don't do you any good and they won't charge your batteries.

Now it still depends on what kinda spikes they are. Are they just voltage spikes from the coil (IE like a car coil) or do they produce a radient spike.
If its the first they aren't doing you anygood anyway. If its the second then they are a sign of energy flowing into the system from the enviroment.

Thats where you'll have too figure out a way to turn the coil off and switch off anything else that might show up right after the spike.

IF the energy is radient and you can do this you will see some recover in your system.

Quote:
Even if the batteries was perfect, with no losses whatsoever, no charge-recycling will ever work.
I don't think charge-recycling is what the TS is about.
Your right there....
I feel it more like beardens circiut in "Final free energy secrets".
The point is to gather the non divergent energy flow.
At high enough rate of switching the electron in the battery will jump off the plate, and onto the wire. This sets the Non divergent energy flow in motion. The you switch and put the electron back. All the while the non divergent is constantly in the process of being agitated and collecting mass, furthering its ability to do work and be stored by the battery on the positive plates.

You also have the potential for a negative resistor effect inside the battery. BY creating ION stress on the negative plate. High voltage spikes will force the ions back into the battery. Creating more stress.

And alot of stuff like that.......
Faster switching and a load that does not disapate energy with other energy is the key.

Matt

Last edited by Matthew Jones : 01-23-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 03:42 PM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Hi Matt,

I still don't get what you mean by these spikes... could you please upload a scope shot to explain what you mean?

Have you read my PDF about Charge Conservation when pulsing caps through inductors? I am 100% confident that his circuit will be over 50% more efficient than simply shorting the flyback out, as it does in set ups that pulse an inductive load through a bridge rectifier. Not saying that this will improve the "Tesla Switch Effect", just that more energy will be recovered by the batteries than in a standard set up.

Thanks.
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:53 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Watch his movies. I know the scope shot small but he has spikes going in both directions. (I could be misveiwing the movie and be wrong)
The spike to the top of the scope is echoed by a shot going to bottom of the scope.
The battery very well may gain from this behaviour. I haven't looked at that.
BUT.... The wave form show symetry. This means that the 2 energies are canceling each others potential somewhere on the wire. And they are 2 bursts of energy. Not one in both directions.

What your looking for out of a spike or waveform with an Asymetrical behaviour. You want only the spike that is strongest in whatever direction it shows up.

This form of spike will create a charging situation. It will add extra energy to the battery. Bedini said this as well in the last energy from the vacuum movie. He did realate it to the phrases symetry or asymetry but none the less he said it. He also said was the prime example for his 3 battery tesla switch diagram.

I realized this some time ago. Anything that produces symetry on the wave form is not giving extra potential thats free. But if you can acheive Asymetry within a wave form or signal and it has the potential to draw free energy out of it, to do useful work or collect for later use. watch the movie. JB draws diagrams of what your looking for.

The newest movie just came out I can wait to see that. I beleive its on the 1 wire circiut. I think what you'll find is it covers this extensivly.

But anyway just to press home a little more. BEMF can be either useful or not. If like I said you are uniform or slightly uniform in both the positive and negative regions of the scope you are doing nothing for gathering useful energy. It may have useful effects on other things. It may improve efficency. But it is not extra energy.
And if your looking for a way to charge batteries, then you must have extra energy. You must exchange energy with the enviroment, without it or us disapating it before it hits the battery. It must be an energy that will flow with the current you input into the system. Anything else is loss.
So you gotta make the choice. How do I grab the positive spike or negative spikes and leave the rest alone?

Matt
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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 07:10 PM
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I have watched his movies and know the part you are talking about, but could you please post a scope shot labelling what you believe each part of it represents... the spikes in particular... I can not understand how flyback (what I think you refer to as back emf) has any role in the tesla switch because it is shorted out by the bridge rectifier.
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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The attached pic is his waveform, or what I see.

A is the positivly charged spike emmited from the coil after turning in on. It is NOT A PART of the BEMF.
B is the Negativly charged spike created by the positivly charged spike. It is an Echo. But it has opposite potential.

It doesn't show up the first time you fire the coil. It shows up from the residual energy left on the coil from turning it on the previous time. This is the Primary component to BEMF.

You call it flyback voltage. If you have no BEMF you have no flyback voltage of anykind showing up on your scope.

The negative spike has the potential to disapate energy from either the battery or the positive spike or both.

This is what you do not want. The disappearance in the bridge You spoke of is the disapation of the positive spike and or battery energy, A LOSS. This spike causes a loss in your system by inputing the same energy you would get from a ground. Maybe not with the same disapating effect as a ground but it does contibute to loss.

Any system that shows both positive and negative spikes will not collect extra energy. At least that has been my experiance.

Matt

Last edited by Matthew Jones : 08-09-2014 at 09:55 PM.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 07:47 AM
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I'm using my batteries for the "slow" TS test right now, so I can't make a new video with a better shot at the scope until later,
but look at the middle in video 2, about 1:06, when the neons are removed but the diodes are still in place.
There I have only one spike per switch, and its a small one.
I guess it's because the spikes now goes into the batteries.

@Matt
I am very interested in how to distinguish between "voltage spikes from the coil" and a "radient spike". How do You tell them apart?

@Sephiroth
Where can I find your PDF about Charge Conservation?
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 09:39 AM
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I have added some annotations on video 2 now, pretty cool tool at youtube actually
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:05 AM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
@Sephiroth
Where can I find your PDF about Charge Conservation?
Here you go
The Efficiency of Pulse Charging Capacitors Through Inductors

@Matt

Thats an interesting wave and would be exactly what Bearden describes as a scalar wave, but I can't see how an oscilloscope can produce that shot since the sweep would have to be in two places at once... have you tried stretching it out to make sure it isn't a high frequency oscillation?
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Thanks Sephiroth!
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 11:41 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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I'll try to explain my circuit.

Look at it having 4 stages; plus-zero-minus-zero.
You can delete the diodes at stages plus and minus where minus is just like plus in a mirror, right? Nothing new here.
In stage zero You can delete all switches as they, in theory, are all off.

Then You can redraw stage zero as the coil connected to a rectifier-bridge with the batteries inside the bridge and the output of the bridge short-circuited.

I would like to minimize the time it spends at the plus- and minus-stages and maximize the two zero-stages.

I'm not sure if this is the theory, but it is my intended theory

I hope this explains what I'm trying to do.
Attached Images
File Type: png stage_plus.png (2.4 KB, 47 views)
File Type: png stage_zero.png (2.6 KB, 42 views)
File Type: png stage_zero_rectifier.png (2.8 KB, 40 views)

Last edited by nilrehob : 01-24-2009 at 12:12 PM. Reason: edited the last png
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:18 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
@Sephiroth
have you tried stretching it out to make sure it isn't a high frequency oscillation?
I have stretched them out. They usually have no width.
I don't think its scalar wave though
The B wave is usually drawn immendiatly after the A wave. so it would be offset a hair to the right. The B wave is usually drawn lighter on the scope than the A wave.
The H wave spikes from a my monopole have about the same effect on the scope. Although the base of the wave form will stretch out slightly.

AM I not seeing that on nilrehob's scope?

On the 5th feb I'll be unpacked so I'll try to produce one on the scope. I can make them several ways in either direction or together.

Quote:
@ nilrehob
"I am very interested in how to distinguish between "voltage spikes from the coil" and a "radient spike". How do You tell them apart?"
Watch the behaviour through resistance or diodes is the best way. If its a plane voltage spike or as Seph said a High frequancy oscolation it will degrade through a diode.
Radient energy wont but radient energy will reduce in voltage when its sent to a battery. The spike will get smaller on the scope When the output wire is hooked to a potential.
Negative Energy (Thats what I call it probably other names as well) will grow through the diode and will not reduce signal when sent to a battery. But it usually doesn't give a you a charge.
I've ran accross other things but I am not sure what to call them or how to describe them.

My point is though anything that is on the scope that has the same polarity as what you putting into the battery will give you additional charge. If you get both polarities on your scope shot you are at some negating the effects.
And its not really that hard to either not make spikes in both directions or to switch off the bad ones. You just gotta fool around with it till you find somthing that works.
Since I have took note of it I can make a charging scenerio happen.

Cheers
matt
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:30 PM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
AM I not seeing that on nilrehob's scope?
Just watched the videos again and I see what you mean. It does appear that way in the first video, but in the second video you can see that the pulse is unidirectional when he expands the shot. I think it is just and illusion in the first video, but perhaps nilrehob could comment on that since he has the best view
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  #150 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2009, 02:14 PM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Just watched the videos again and I see what you mean. It does appear that way in the first video, but in the second video you can see that the pulse is unidirectional when he expands the shot. I think it is just and illusion in the first video, but perhaps nilrehob could comment on that since he has the best view
I took the liberty to freehand-edit a frame from my video to make it clearer.
The frame is when there are no neons (but the diodes are there), around 1:13 in the second video.

I will make a new video of just the scope as soon as my extremely slow TS test is over, as I would rather not interrupt it and have to start it all over again.
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