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  #4141  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:40 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Gotta remember the goal of the setup is to get the output voltage up to the level of the batteries or bit higher so you can compare.
To compare you run the load on all 4 batteries from fully charged down to 12.2 or so.
Then run the switch with the same load and manually rotate the batteries. Charge the tops discharge the bottoms, then rotate. You can even let it rest in between runs a bit.

For example the 4 batteries ran the light bulb for 4 hours at an average voltage of 12.4 and 1 amp of current. Thats 49.6 watt hours total.
Now the switch runs the same bulb but does it at 16 hours total and everything is the same or close to above you now 198.4 watt hours.

The real trick is tuning. Depending on the transformer. If its a normal transformer with plates your gonna make heat if the frequency is higher than about 150 hertz. But the toroid you mentioned might be made out of ferrite or something so its gonna start around 50 khz. Well the batteries aren't gonna take that. And going slower lowers the potential.

Try to set the thing up as recommended and you'll see better results. Just gotta play it by ear until you know for sure how things are gonna act. Thats the point of the simple circuit is to learn to tune it.

Cheers
Matt
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  #4142  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:22 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Thanks Matt,
I fried the recommended transformer and the ssr's.
Not sure what failed first the ssr's or the transformer.
I've redone the transformer with #20 wire instead of #18 and now I'll try the MJL's.
Your MJL circuit looks like the IC and the MJL's are powered by the TS batts and the diode arrangement in the most basic cct is not functioning.
I'll power the MJL's with the TS batts but the arduino with a USB cable to PC.
Very easy to tune on the fly.

Greatly appreciate your presence on the thread.

Thanks,
bro d
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  #4143  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:25 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I do not know what a CCT is... Let me know when you hit 50 KW we'll compare.

Cheers
Matt
CTT = circuit to my unejukated mind.
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  #4144  
Old 07-17-2014, 04:27 AM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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quote:
Try to set the thing up as recommended and you'll see better results. Just gotta play it by ear until you know for sure how things are gonna act. Thats the point of the simple circuit is to learn to tune it.


Hi All,
Got the basic setup working now with MJL21194's.
Tuned it to 15.22VAC.
On times are .006sec (167hz?) The scope says on time is about .005sec. Full cycle would be about 40hz
I put the diodes back in between the batts because when I started tuning, tranny heat was too much. The diodes slowed down the heat issue.
When I got close with the tuning the heat issue became very sinkable.
I have a small window motor that might be a good load. It has good torque at low rpm under heavy load. Will run under heavy load at 12W.
Any tips on load sizing?
Thanks,
bro d
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  #4145  
Old 07-17-2014, 06:54 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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2 pics

Hi All,
two pics.
One is the beautiful square wave that Matt's circuit produces with arduino.
Two is pic of circuit while running.
Thanks bro

[ATTACH]14632[/AT[ATTACH]
scope TS sw.JPG
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File Type: jpg TS circuit.JPG (1.70 MB, 82 views)
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  #4146  
Old 07-18-2014, 02:47 AM
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I would stick with a resistive load under 10 watt. Inductive loads beyond the transformer tend to heat that thing up a bit.

Matt
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  #4147  
Old 07-19-2014, 03:27 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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[QUOTE=Matthew Jones;261444]

Then run the switch with the same load and manually rotate the batteries. Charge the tops discharge the bottoms, then rotate. You can even let it rest in between runs a bit.

Hi Matt,
4 new charged Garden tractor batts.
Took 6.5hrs to draw them down to 12.35v with a 2 amp load.

Currently running load on switch. (Big fan keeps heat down)

When do I want to manually switch the batts?

Thanks,
bro d
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  #4148  
Old 07-20-2014, 11:18 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Haas View Post

Then run the switch with the same load and manually rotate the batteries. Charge the tops discharge the bottoms, then rotate. You can even let it rest in between runs a bit.

Hi Matt,
4 new charged Garden tractor batts.
Took 6.5hrs to draw them down to 12.35v with a 2 amp load.

Currently running load on switch. (Big fan keeps heat down)

When do I want to manually switch the batts?

Thanks,
bro d
When the bottom set hits 12.35 +-. Put them in a top spot. Generally I keep them on the same side. But you can rotate them around the input power for switching if your not powering externally.

Matt

PS there is another option too. Let the system run till it balances out if it will. So you let the top batteries get into a charge state IE 14 + volt and let the bottom one go low, but not below 11 v or so. I have had them to a point in which the bottoms stop going down and the tops stop going up and everything just runs. Small batteries may not take to it, but you can try one time and see.
I've seen the system hold stable that way up to 12 hours. Inside an climate controlled room they may go longer. Temperature change will often cause this situation the change the stability of the system.
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  #4149  
Old 07-23-2014, 04:52 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Hi Matt,
Read through most of the thread, pg #120 at present.
My switch has been doing small watt load now for 2 days.
Have everything for a bigger build.
Don't want to be in a hurry.
Very grateful for your work.
Be talkin',
bro d
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  #4150  
Old 07-30-2014, 04:32 AM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Been studying Arduino to switch at microseconds.
Have to get into C++.
Did a test with small load and it didn't work.
Direct from batts was longer than TS.
I'm testing again with larger load.
Will scaleup as soon as I can get 8 times more with TS than direct from batts.
Been looking into Benitez patents also.

bro d
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  #4151  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:19 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Test results

TS - under load, down to 12.215 = 18hr42min

4 charged Batts - under same load down to 12.215 = 16hr35min

I switching at 1ms per on time per side. 2ms per cycle.
This gives highest voltage at AC out and the least amount of heat in the transistors.

Didn't notice any heat in the transformer.

Obviously I'm missing it some where.

I'm using clip leads on the transformer connections, cap bank connections and load connections.

Garden tractor batts. (about 12 Ah )

The load in this test was a 20W 12v halogen bulb.

Previous test was much smaller load and the results were a little better but not close to 8 times more work with the TS compared to batts.
On previous test it took about 3 days for the discharge target for each half.
It seemed like it would have been about the same if there was no load on the TS.
I will follow instructions.
Thanks for any help,
bro d
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  #4152  
Old 08-02-2014, 04:33 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Don't be discouraged. Thats not bad on the first few runs. You should use solid wire connections.
More runs will tune the batteries a bit. 1 ms seams kind fast but you have to be the judge. If the transformer can handle it then I guess that may be working. Most iron EI cores like 60 hertz.

You rotated the batteries? Did you try to hit an equilibrium. See if the bottom batteries stop discharging?

Matt
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  #4153  
Old 08-02-2014, 01:28 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Don't be discouraged. Thats not bad on the first few runs. You should use solid wire connections.
More runs will tune the batteries a bit. 1 ms seams kind fast but you have to be the judge. If the transformer can handle it then I guess that may be working. Most iron EI cores like 60 hertz.

You rotated the batteries? Did you try to hit an equilibrium. See if the bottom batteries stop discharging?

Matt
Thanks Matt,
I'll upgrade the quality of the build and keep testing so I can report on all your points and questions.

Thanks,
bro d
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  #4154  
Old 08-15-2014, 05:38 AM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Originally Posted by Donald Haas View Post
Thanks Matt,
I'll upgrade the quality of the build and keep testing so I can report on all your points and questions.

Thanks,
bro d
Hi Matt,
I redid the setup with no clip leads and #12AWG.
9W load gave me 36 hours with the TS.
I did rest periods between manually shifting batts with TS.
It seemed like I hit an equalibrium where the lower batts seemed to drop a lot less that expected over night.
I expected to seem then in the low 11v range in the am but they were both at 12v.

Same load direct from batts gave me only 15 minutes less run time.
I drew the batts down to 12.06v in both cases.

I used a new arduino board because there was a bad pin on the other.
I would like to scale up to the "big one" with 105Ahr batts but hesitate until I can see better "small one" results.

If I go longer than 1ms pulses the output is less, a few ms more and the tranny's began to heat up.

No heat on the transformer.

I picked up a Tektronix 200Mhz refurbished, warrantied scope on ebay for $335 from a local company. Glad about that.

I could feed the tranny's with a signal gen instead of arduino or could switch to some other micro board.

I should probobly at least do the same 20W load as before with the new wiring. And see how that does.

What stands out to you the most on my efforts as far as need for correction.

Thanks

bro d
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  #4155  
Old 08-15-2014, 12:46 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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What kinda specs do you have on the transformer. Size and windings.

One thing at first you might be shooting for best output, later you might start looking at recovery. If you run the arduino off a battery in the system you may try taking it off and running it from a power supply or something separate see how much difference that makes. After all its a grounded load and kind defeats the purpose, but I put in that way for simplicity.

Maybe you have some pictures?

Many,Many factors, sometimes the answer is just try things. Remember 60 hertz which is what most transformers are designed to run at is 8.3 ms per side for a total cycle is 16.6. So you are really high speed. Maybe not saturating enough and loosing power in the mix.
You may wanna add just a little off time between half cycles.

Start looking a 1 hour runs and the recovery rate, to see what speeds and changes make a difference.
You do not have to run the thing 36 hours.

If you have another set of batteries try them just to compare.

Several people worked in this thing for many months before it started working well, that was because at that point they new what adjustments made what difference and they could tune right into it. Mine worked the same way, it took a little while to get results.

Don't be scared of a little heat, I heat things up a bit. Heat from current passing through 2 potentials is not the same as heat on a grounded load. 100 watt light bulb only consumes about 4.7 watts between potentials. How great is that?

And trust me thing will not run forever. Might only get 2-3 times out who knows. I have seen as high as 8 times out in the small system several times now. The bigger systems the clock is still out on. Buts its up to you to work it, I wish I could stand there and help but....

Biggest thing is document what you have tried and the results so you can look for patterns to to use to tune.

Cheers
Matt
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  #4156  
Old 08-15-2014, 07:32 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Thanks Matt,
I greatly appreciate your taking some time to encourage and provide info.
bro d
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  #4157  
Old 08-15-2014, 10:14 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Its no problem.

Anything you need post and keep working. It will pay off I promise you. I wish the whole thing was more predictable. Seems alot of people have hap hazardly put these things together and it worked out but the ones who really try hard sometimes have to really try hard.

So anyway I'll do my best to help.

Cheers
Matt
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  #4158  
Old 08-19-2014, 05:33 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Thanks Matt,
I'm using the radio shack transformer that you recommended in the manual.
#20 wire.
The primaries are .46ohm and the 2ndary is .56ohm.
Since I rewired it the tranny heat not an issue.

Not sure how to look at the "recovery rate".

Thanks,
bro d
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  #4159  
Old 08-20-2014, 09:50 AM
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Run the system for an hour. Watch the current going in the transformer and coming out. You can look at the voltage too with a scope.
You can use a bridge instead of the transformer and see if the loss is as high, by going only one way. Just see if what you take out of one side migrates to the other. Voltage is an indicator but it should hold from side to side.

Check the 2 top batteries make sure they aren't going much over 14.5 while running. That may be when you want switch your batts and not when the batts get low. You might be loosing power from over charging as well.

Just try checking as much you can to find out why your loosing.

Worst case your batteries are just not coming around. It does happen but rarely. Don't assume that the problem just keep running the system to see.

Matt
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  #4160  
Old 08-23-2014, 10:04 AM
Kepszlok Kepszlok is offline
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To Matt:

I do built the small version of your switch (the optocoupled version from page 25) with using the pulse source from my previous circuit.
I'm using a different transformer (230V - 2*16V toroid) because it was just lying around and with it, i may be give enough voltage to run a normal lamp or something. Currently there are noting in it's primer side.

So what i get:

-Connecting 3 batterys:
There are around 3V square wave on the toroid secunder, primer voltage goes up to 50V. The frequency for maximum output was around 1300Hz.
If i test the other side, the values are the same.
-connecting 4 batterys:
Voltages drops down to 1V secunder voltage. Seems like swapping one of the secunder's wireing does not affect this.


So we started first to debug the 3 battery setup. We removed the toroid from the system, and replaced it with a 12 ohm power resistor for easyer measuring. Voltage in the resistor was the same as in the toroid's secunder.

At the PNP's collector (between the NPN's emitter) we measured ~1.3V square wave. But between the NPN's there was only 200mV square wave, seems like the transistor was not fully open. We was tested with bigger and smaller transstor pairs, tryd smaller resistor between them, but the BE voltage remaind ~200mV.
I attached the Tina simulation of this, but the underlined voltage are obiously wrong in the simulation.

Have you got any idea about what cen be wrong?
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File Type: jpg 39613_nevtelen_2.jpg (28.1 KB, 37 views)
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  #4161  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:18 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kepszlok View Post
To Matt:

I do built the small version of your switch (the optocoupled version from page 25) with using the pulse source from my previous circuit.
I'm using a different transformer (230V - 2*16V toroid) because it was just lying around and with it, i may be give enough voltage to run a normal lamp or something. Currently there are noting in it's primer side.

So what i get:

-Connecting 3 batterys:
There are around 3V square wave on the toroid secunder, primer voltage goes up to 50V. The frequency for maximum output was around 1300Hz.
If i test the other side, the values are the same.
-connecting 4 batterys:
Voltages drops down to 1V secunder voltage. Seems like swapping one of the secunder's wireing does not affect this.


So we started first to debug the 3 battery setup. We removed the toroid from the system, and replaced it with a 12 ohm power resistor for easyer measuring. Voltage in the resistor was the same as in the toroid's secunder.

At the PNP's collector (between the NPN's emitter) we measured ~1.3V square wave. But between the NPN's there was only 200mV square wave, seems like the transistor was not fully open. We was tested with bigger and smaller transstor pairs, tryd smaller resistor between them, but the BE voltage remaind ~200mV.
I attached the Tina simulation of this, but the underlined voltage are obiously wrong in the simulation.

Have you got any idea about what cen be wrong?
Some toroid transformers are wound for 1 way use. They almost act like a diode. You can only power one side. Trying to power the lower side is like adding a load and draws down the potential.

Try an EI core or just a spool of wire.

Matt
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  #4162  
Old 08-23-2014, 05:35 PM
Kepszlok Kepszlok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Some toroid transformers are wound for 1 way use. They almost act like a diode. You can only power one side. Trying to power the lower side is like adding a load and draws down the potential.

Try an EI core or just a spool of wire.

Matt
So you sad, a proper transformer will let the switches fully opening? We had no luck with resistor (but tested it only with 12 ohm).

I will be again holiday for a week, but aftert that i will try other transformers.
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  #4163  
Old 08-23-2014, 06:32 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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As far as the transistors opening if you followed the instructions for testing while assembling everything would work. With those instructions you should be able to isolate exactly whats wrong. If your switch's aren't opening you didn't use the recommended transistors.

You'll have include info on your transistors if you changed the recipe.

Matt
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  #4164  
Old 08-23-2014, 07:08 PM
Kepszlok Kepszlok is offline
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Yes i do followed the instructions. I get positive results from the initial switching test with a multimeter then moved forward.

I used MJE 15032 and 15033 transistors (250V, 8A, 50W), then tryed MJE 13009 (400V, 12A, 110W) and also tryd much smaller ones MJE 340 and it's pnp pair (300V, 0.5A, 20W).
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  #4165  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:26 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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I still don't understand all your your explanation of the measurements but sounds to me that the problems mostly are in the toroid transformer. So work on that if you can.

But keep posting when you get a chance, I'll help the best I can.

Cheers
Matt
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  #4166  
Old 09-04-2014, 07:23 PM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Questions

Hi Matt
#4 batt shows .8A and #2 batt shows .5A at the neg terminals under load.
I've ruled out the following as the cause by testing.
Trannys
Diodes...test
Batts...switch position
Transformer...swap primary connections
Arduino...swap outputs
Speed...ratio remains at different pulse times

Another question:
The voltage on my upper batts does not change under load.
Are they supposed to increase in voltage?
Thanks,
Bro d
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  #4167  
Old 09-04-2014, 08:40 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Ya Ideally you would have about 13.8 v on the top batteries and 12.2 on the bottoms. Ideally. I have seen the system run at 14.5 on top and 11 something on the bottoms. That tends to be when my deep cycles balance out, then they just jump around in the hundredth of volts up and down.

I used some car batteries for while and they would balance out upwards of 15v on top and 11.5 v on the bottom.

You are getting AC type current out of the transformer right?

Matt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Haas View Post
Hi Matt
#4 batt shows .8A and #2 batt shows .5A at the neg terminals under load.
I've ruled out the following as the cause by testing.
Trannys
Diodes...test
Batts...switch position
Transformer...swap primary connections
Arduino...swap outputs
Speed...ratio remains at different pulse times

Another question:
The voltage on my upper batts does not change under load.
Are they supposed to increase in voltage?
Thanks,
Bro d
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  #4168  
Old 09-10-2014, 01:49 AM
Donald Haas Donald Haas is offline
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Hi Matt,
getting AC out of the transformer.
decided to try and see if I could pulse a pair of batts in parallel with series connected batts. put the parallel pair between the four batts in your simple TS setup. then connected the output from the both alternately pulsed series pairs into the paralleled pair.

On the first attempt the paralleled pair went from 12.5v to 15.2v in about 2 minutes. It depends on the size of the load on the transformer. cut the load at the transformer by 2/3 and that pulls less amperage from the series pairs.

The top batts of the in series pairs are much lower voltage than the bottoms
At last check the tops were at 12.4v and the bottoms were at 12.74.
Don't understand that. I thought maybe the diodes? removed them and no change.
They started at fully charged for experiment (parallel pair was discharged to 11.3v).

It looks like I should get much more output from the outer 4 batts with the charging and the 16W load then could be expected at a C20 rate which is only a 4W draw.

can all most asume that you tried it this way.

It's a good experiement for me because of pulsing a pair in parallel with no additional switching.
Thanks again Matt for being here.
bro d
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Last edited by Donald Haas; 09-10-2014 at 01:53 AM.
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  #4169  
Old 09-10-2014, 10:32 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Well why you are experimenting you may try to reverse your batteries in the setup and see if it helps. So in other words the positives are hooked to the transformer. The batteries may stabilize better in that direction.

I have pulsed from side to side. In fact the Benitez circuits (Patents) do that very thing.

You gotta watch the heat when doing that, especially in the transformer. Open coils like you would use in a Monopole work real well and if driven at a rate in which the current per pulse is low you can produce some pretty neat results showing extra work done. But you have to watch out for the big transients they will burn switch's out real quick.

Matt
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  #4170  
Old 09-16-2014, 07:59 PM
Kepszlok Kepszlok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I still don't understand all your your explanation of the measurements but sounds to me that the problems mostly are in the toroid transformer. So work on that if you can.

But keep posting when you get a chance, I'll help the best I can.

Cheers
Matt
I'm back with some result. My prior scope pictures was mostly bad because of faulty connections. Now the whole switching part of the circuit works how it shoud be, perfect square pulses flows to the coils.

After trying 5 different transformer in every possible way, now i see this circuit will only work well with CT / isolator transformer with low dc resistance (along with Xl parameter i think) on both coils.


For me the cheapest way to get a suitible CT with two secunder coils is to build it with my friend. But to do that I woud like to ask something about the modified transformer what you described in your guide.
The basis was the CT heavy duty transformer:
110V - 2*25.2V, 2A - this gives V2/V1 ratio to 0.23

After the modification, what are the new values? I found it hard (at least for me) to follow what you ar duing with the transformer after the removeing of the plateing. I coud realy use N1, N2, N3 values along with their resistance.
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