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  #3991  
Old 11-05-2011, 05:56 AM
Sobakin Sobakin is offline
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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Sobakin what size batteries are you using and are they the regular flooded lead acid batteries? The sealed gel cell type batteries do not work well with the TS. Also your load has to be matched to the size of the batteries and the size of the transformer. I don't remember seeing anywhere what batteries or size of transformer you are using. I do know you can go too large with your load and then you will get charging on the top but drain the bottom batteries at a much faster rate so your total run time will be shorter. About 12 watts or so seems to be working for most people with the rewound Radio Shack transformer. Another thing to remember is that the best run times and charging will probably not be at the same tuning spot as the place with the most output. You may have to make a compromise.

Carroll
Hi Carroll,
I'm using two battery sets - 4x 1.3 A-h 12V SLA and 4x 4 A-h 12V flooded lead-acid for scooters.
Transformer is like Matt recommended, originally ~30W, rewired with ~90 turns each of primary and ~110 turns of secondary 20AWG.
Loads 6W bulb or 21W bulb.
Now I continue tests for different conditions and combinations.
Looks like I found something, need to repeat for confirm.
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  #3992  
Old 11-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Sobakin Sobakin is offline
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Originally Posted by jpolakow View Post
After my second phase of testing I had good results. Attached is an pdf file of my data. I am more comfortable with this data, and also I have an explanation of my previous anomalous "charging".
Reading your pdf I don't understand how batteries in parallel can have different voltages.

Quote:
I ran a 20 watt load (halogen bulb) for 8.5 hours for this test. The batteries were very close in initial charge (average of 12.465 vs 12.46). The total loss after 8.5 hours for the tesla switch was .2025 volts vs .425 for batts in parallel. So again I got 2 times better run time for the TS.
Two times less in voltage drop didn't mean two times better run as voltage drop is non-linear for time. Also your measurements under load in 2-switch TS shows that batteries that befor swap under load had 12.0V and after swap shows 12.2V, they're really may be not charged after that, only stopped to discharge and load like charge-discharge is closer to simply no load, what's why their voltage 12.2 instead 12.0 under load, in parallel all batteries are under load, so this is my explanations of difference:
Before last swap You have:
12.06 12.34 12.16 12.24
and after 8:30 You have
12.38 11.95 12.36 11.97
if You swap batteries after 8:30 and connect load, Yoy could see what batteries which had 12.06 and 12.16 before last swap remain about the same charge, same like batteries before first swap and after second swap (12.02 became 12.04 and 12.05 became 12.04) - their voltages the same, because they didn't discharge.
lets combine this results:
12.06 11.95 12.16 11.97
With 4 in parallel after 8:30 You have:
11.84 12.04 11.88 12.06 - not so big difference, but looks like it has something, including some loss in transformer.

Quote:
I noticed I regained some of the lost charge after letting the batteries rest for a short period of time. I think this is what happened in my last test. I did a battery swap before hour 4 in my last test, so the batteries were diconnected for perhaps long enough to regain some charge. Also my voltage drop for the last test was so small (.04 volts total) that it didn't take much to make it appear the batts were charging.
It will really good if after resting and voltage gain You could load it and without returning voltage to state just before of stop load in one minute, measure voltage w/o load has ho practical sence.

All what I write is my thinking about, it may be wrong, of course.
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  #3993  
Old 11-05-2011, 05:31 PM
dnewkirk dnewkirk is offline
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Hey Jpolakow,
Good job. Thanks for posting your results so we can all have more data to compare as we strive for making our own setup better.
You say,” I got 2 times better run time for the TS.” From your posted results, I see a runtime almost seven times greater as compared to the paralleled batteries supplying the same load. You have to compare how much battery energy was expended in each configuration.
You start the clock ticking with the batts under load and you take the average voltage, which you clearly did in each case. In both situations, the starting average voltage was within millivolts of each other; good. This is a must so that you have meaningful comparisons for each configuration. Then you let the voltage drop to what you deem a safe level without killing your batteries, and you take the ending average reading. Charge the batts back up and then connect them to the TS configuration. Again, start your readings under load at the same point as when the batts were paralleled. Good, you did this. The difference between starting average voltages was about 20 millivolts. Then you ran it down for 8.5 hours, or 510 minutes. V_average reached about 12.165v.
When I look at your paralleled battery readings, I see the average voltage reached 12.163v at elapsed time 1:15, or 75 minutes. So, you clearly got 6.8 times more runtime on the TS config than on the batts alone supplying the same load, discharging to the same level. <Insert applause here!>
Folks have spent their lifetime studying about lead acid batteries and improving performances. Differences between gel cell, AGM, flooded ‘wet’ cells, Peukerts Law, state of charge, non linear discharge, plate size and spacing and type of material, electrolyte makeup, ion flow,etc;etc;etc. It’s baffling to me. But it wasn’t until I carved out the time to do a quick (superficial) study that I began to realize the importance in how you go about taking readings and understanding the care and feeding of your batteries. These lead acid workhorses have been used in industry for 150 years. They pack a lot of energy per pound. Tesla was able to utilize their potential without sapping their strength. Matt’s configuration seems to be leading us toward that goal. All I can say is that I hope soon that we can help each other make it to the prize.
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  #3994  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:35 AM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Strange readings

Hi Carroll,
I started my switch up today to do some tuning and I got some very strange behavior. When I first started the switch up my halogen bulb lit up super bright and then died. I figured there was a bad connection somewhere so I took out my DMM and took a reading at the caps(no load). I got 44 volts DC! I figured something was amiss so I turned off the switch, checked my connections and restarted the switch- now I got 24 volts and it slowly climbs higher by .01 volts at a time until about 26.75 volts. If I hook up a bulb, it will drop to around 14 volts pretty rapidly. Then If I disconnect the load again the output will jump to 22 volts pretty quickly, and then climb to 26, 27, or 28 volts (by .01 increments) depending on how long I wait. I'm still getting 17 volts out AC (rms) at the transformer. Isn't the rms value supposed to be what the equivalent dc voltage is if it's rectified? Very strange.... especially that the dc out slowly rises.

Also I have a second question- I have more tuning to do, and did realize my bottom batteries dropped much more rapidly with the 20w load. If we find the ideal load size for a given switch, can we simulate that load size with a capacitor bank? Then have the cap bank disconnect from the rectifier and run the load while the rectifier charges cap bank #2. Have some switching so the load is always independent of the rectifier output, enabling you to run any load size independent of the best value for the switch? Just an idea.

Thanks!
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  #3995  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:51 AM
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citfta citfta is online now
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Hi John,

Well to answer your first question, what you are seeing is one of the interesting things about this transformer setup. The caps would normally charge to the PEP value of the current if the current was a true sine wave and there was no load on the cap. You are driving the transformer with short pulses of DC that are close to a square wave and not a true AC sine wave. So you are seeing some strange things as shown by your meter. Another thing to remember is if you are using a digital mutimeter they are designed for a sine wave too and don't handle other signals too well. The DC voltage on the cap is probably pretty close to right but your RMS value shown on the meter may not be.

To answer your second question, what is going to keep your load running while you are recharging the cap? Also if you run some tests you will see when the cap is fully charged you have almost no current flowing on the primary side so you won't get any charging of your top batteries. It is something else for you to play with and see if you can find a way to dump the cap into your load and still keep everything else working the way you want it to. Have fun.

Carroll
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  #3996  
Old 11-07-2011, 02:01 AM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Strange readings

Edit: I have been able to replicate my previous strange readings. What I did was connect a bulb in series with one of the transformer windings, to see how running a load in series with the transformer would influence output. Right now with a bulb in series with one of the primaries I am getting 70 VDC steady state out at the caps, but with only 13.6 VAC at the transformer. How the heck is it jumping from 13.6 to 70 just going through the rectifier??? I've checked the readings with two separate meters to verify.

Also if I short the dc output quicly it jumps right back up to 70!! Do you think some kind of resonance thing is going on?

In regards to my second question I was suggesting two cap banks. One to run the load from while the other cap bank charges. Then flip flopping them.

Thanks!
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  #3997  
Old 11-07-2011, 02:28 AM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Readings

Here is a picture of what I'm claiming. In the lower left corner you can see the yellow wires with alligator clips. They are connecting the bulb in series with the green winding primary.In the lower right corner you see the meter reading 69.4 volts. This is connected to the green wires with alligator clips, which in turn are connected to the output at the caps. In the upper right corner you see the other meter with a reading of 13.6 vac. this meter is connected to the output of the trafo(red wires) with the white wires with alligator clips
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  #3998  
Old 11-08-2011, 02:10 AM
Sobakin Sobakin is offline
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Originally Posted by jpolakow View Post
Hi Carroll,
I started my switch up today to do some tuning and I got some very strange behavior. When I first started the switch up my halogen bulb lit up super bright and then died. I figured there was a bad connection somewhere so I took out my DMM and took a reading at the caps(no load). I got 44 volts DC! I figured something was amiss so I turned off the switch, checked my connections and restarted the switch- now I got 24 volts and it slowly climbs higher by .01 volts at a time until about 26.75 volts. If I hook up a bulb, it will drop to around 14 volts pretty rapidly. Then If I disconnect the load again the output will jump to 22 volts pretty quickly, and then climb to 26, 27, or 28 volts (by .01 increments) depending on how long I wait.
It's a back-EMF spikes between pulses when transformer has no load, they are relatively high-voltage and very short in time, caps after rectifer can absorb them, and you can see a voltage gain in caps. Lower capacipy caps rises voltage faster.
Try not to exceed cap's maximum voltage, because it could explode.
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  #3999  
Old 11-08-2011, 02:13 AM
gtmbiz gtmbiz is offline
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i need help

Hi Peter,
A big hello to all members i am new here and would be glad if any one that have an ultimate knowledge on the innovative idea on how to build tesla coil to power a bulb light.Please if you can help i need help for Tesla coil electric bulb my contact is gtmplace@yahoo.com Hoping to hear from you soonest
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  #4000  
Old 11-08-2011, 08:25 AM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Back EMF

So I've got a question... can we harness the inductive kickback of the coil? I mean we pulse the coil, then we get a high voltage kickback. Why not harness this kickback in a cap and use it to either charge the batts -or pulse it back into the coil to get an even higher kickback/power out of the secondary. Is this feasible?
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  #4001  
Old 11-08-2011, 12:55 PM
Sobakin Sobakin is offline
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Originally Posted by jpolakow View Post
So I've got a question... can we harness the inductive kickback of the coil? I mean we pulse the coil, then we get a high voltage kickback. Why not harness this kickback in a cap and use it to either charge the batts -or pulse it back into the coil to get an even higher kickback/power out of the secondary. Is this feasible?
I think charging caps by this spikes is not effective, energy is very small, maybe it's better to direct them back to batteries.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:07 PM
dnewkirk dnewkirk is offline
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Look at the attached drawing on nvisser's post, #3797.
You'll see diodes D3 & D4 added to capture the inductive kickback energy and apply it to the charging batteries (+) buss.
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  #4003  
Old 11-08-2011, 09:19 PM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Thankyou dnewkirk!
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  #4004  
Old 11-11-2011, 04:53 PM
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I want to ask about doing the baseline 4 battery parallel discharge test.

Say if with the TS switch, you can generate a output of 10.5v max when loading it down with a 12v 100ma bulb, when you discharge the 4 batteries in parallel do you add a pot to adjust down the voltage of the bulb to the same 10.5v draw (so that it glows at a similar brightness as the TS test)in order to make a comparable test.
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  #4005  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:09 PM
Sobakin Sobakin is offline
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Originally Posted by shadowless View Post
I want to ask about doing the baseline 4 battery parallel discharge test.

Say if with the TS switch, you can generate a output of 10.5v max when loading it down with a 12v 100amp bulb, when you discharge the 4 batteries in parallel do you add a pot to adjust down the voltage of the bulb to the same 10.5v draw (so that it glows at a similar brightness as the TS test)in order to make a comparable test.
What's why I did another baseline test with same transformer, for this I built H-bridge inverter, which powered by 4 batteries in parallel, so they are only discharged simultaneously to transformer and load.
I didn't found any advantage in TS against inverter with both types of batteries (I have 4x 12V 1.3 A-h SLA and 4x 12V 4 A-h flood acid batteries), and different loads (6W bulb and 21W bulb), time was the same as with inverter.
Tried different TS: Matt's 2-switch with mosfets, another with bipolar MJLs and symmetric 6-switch with mosfets, different loads, different batteries, different frequencies, different transformers (two iron, two ferrite) have done about 30 tests - result the same, +/- 5%.
W/o transformer I got discharge time even better, no transformer loss due primary's current consumption gain because of voltage gain in secondary.
6W bulb consumes 0.45A itself but transformer's input current about 0.55A.
Don't know how Matt managed to get up to 8x discharge time, for me it's a big secret
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  #4006  
Old 11-13-2011, 02:22 AM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowless View Post
I want to ask about doing the baseline 4 battery parallel discharge test.

Say if with the TS switch, you can generate a output of 10.5v max when loading it down with a 12v 100amp bulb, when you discharge the 4 batteries in parallel do you add a pot to adjust down the voltage of the bulb to the same 10.5v draw (so that it glows at a similar brightness as the TS test)in order to make a comparable test.
Hi shadowless. If you wound the transformer correctly you should get more than 12 volts output. The secondary winding on the transformer is supposed to be 20% longer. Which should boost the voltage. After going through the bridge rectifier, the dc voltage for me is anywhere between 13-20 volts. For me the output is ALWAYS higher than the voltage of the batteries individually. So you shouldn't have to dial it down for the batts in parallel.
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  #4007  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:23 AM
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I was using a 100ma 12v bulb, made a mistake in earlier post.

Was using 18awg wire wound to the max that the transformer can take. Will have to test out with thinner 20awg wire.

If you use different load on the TS, the output voltage will vary. Smaller load will give higher voltage and larger load will have lower voltage. For the direction connection to the battery it will just supply whatever the bulb requires. Putting a 5-10w 12v dimly lit bulb on the TS would not be a good test comparison test.

I do think the load should be supplied with the same voltage and current in both situation to make the comparison test meaningful hence i am asking about the clarification on it.
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  #4008  
Old 11-14-2011, 01:01 AM
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hherby hherby is offline
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Transformer Winding Estimator V2

Hello All,

I see quite a few have downloaded my first version of the winding estimator. Did anyone compare their actual windings to the calculated estimate?

I have finally wound this transformer and came within a few feet of the calculated estimate. I have updated the estimator to show percentage fill of the bobbin.

This is my updated version to ESTIMATE the amount of wire needed to wind a transformer that Matthew describes. Download the file and rename it from TSWindings-v2.xls.pdf to TSWindings-v2.xls so you can open it in Excel. The calculations are based on how much a single winding will fit on a spool perfectly wound and then calculates the lengths of the primaries and a secondary which is 25% longer than the primaries. It also shows the percentage the bobbin is filled. The Test data is based on a 200VA 120V-24V transformer that I have dissassembled and measured the bobbin dimensions.

Enter the diameter of the magnet wire and the bobbin dimensions.
To remove a layer, delete the highest layer number. To add a layer type in the next highest layer number.

Aim for around 80% fill of the bobbin and you should be very close. My calculated lengths were 38 ft primaries and 48 ft secondary. If my thumbs weren't so sore, I would have fit all the wire on the spool. In the end I used 34 ft primaries and 43 ft secondary using 14 awg. So it was pretty close. Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

Alex
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  #4009  
Old 11-14-2011, 09:59 AM
teej_seeker teej_seeker is offline
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Matt's Pdf

Hi Folks,

I am researching the DTS build. Where can i get the PDF?

thanks,

tejinder
malaysia
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  #4010  
Old 11-14-2011, 10:33 AM
teej_seeker teej_seeker is offline
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i found the pdf from the overunity forum. it seems that the matthewjones site on no longer available.

thanks.

tejinder
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:33 PM
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Matt Jones Simple Switch

Dear Matt,

Your simple switch looks interesting. Currently my dad is attempting the first prototype, and just now he told me that it's working on one side of the battery since he faced a dead end on the transformer. But I'm guessing (and optimistic), that ordinary transformer design should work just fine. That's where I come in.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers,


Rocky
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  #4012  
Old 11-21-2011, 01:00 PM
tubesfreak tubesfreak is offline
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winding estimator

Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
Hello All,

I see quite a few have downloaded my first version of the winding estimator. Did anyone compare their actual windings to the calculated estimate?

I have finally wound this transformer and came within a few feet of the calculated estimate. I have updated the estimator to show percentage fill of the bobbin.

This is my updated version to ESTIMATE the amount of wire needed to wind a transformer that Matthew describes. Download the file and rename it from TSWindings-v2.xls.pdf to TSWindings-v2.xls so you can open it in Excel. The calculations are based on how much a single winding will fit on a spool perfectly wound and then calculates the lengths of the primaries and a secondary which is 25% longer than the primaries. It also shows the percentage the bobbin is filled. The Test data is based on a 200VA 120V-24V transformer that I have dissassembled and measured the bobbin dimensions.

Enter the diameter of the magnet wire and the bobbin dimensions.
To remove a layer, delete the highest layer number. To add a layer type in the next highest layer number.

Aim for around 80% fill of the bobbin and you should be very close. My calculated lengths were 38 ft primaries and 48 ft secondary. If my thumbs weren't so sore, I would have fit all the wire on the spool. In the end I used 34 ft primaries and 43 ft secondary using 14 awg. So it was pretty close. Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

Alex
dear hherby,

it'd be even more convenient to convert the estimated wire length used to a number of turns on a designated bobbin, don't you think?
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
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dear hherby,

it'd be even more convenient to convert the estimated wire length used to a number of turns on a designated bobbin, don't you think?
Thanks for taking the time to look it over and responding.
It basically does the calculations with full layers and at the top left it shows how many turns per layer. It also shows how many turns per layer per strand. It rounds down to the nearest multiple of 3 strands. The calculations came out close enough for me. Since I haven't received any feedback from those that have wound their own transformers with regards to actual windings vs calculated, I only have my own results as a basis for the calculations. It has come out close enough for me so I will not be posting any updates without results from others.

I am currently rejuvenating my batterys while I build and program my controller board (avr based). I will be using Solid state relays and have done some preliminary testing of firing the SSRs using the SG3524 circuit that JB posted early in the thread which I had used on a 6 switch version.

Good luck with your replication.

Thanks
Alex
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:28 PM
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[QUOTE=citfta;165411]To tune for best charging takes a lot of patience. As you thought you just have to take readings over a period of time and see what is happening. Each set up will be a little different so you just have to keep working with it until you get a feel for what happens when you change this or that. A smaller load my help or a larger one. A shorter pulse or a longer one may do it. You just have to try different combos and see what happens. I usually will only change one thing at a time though and try it for a while and then go back and change something else. And be sure and keep good notes like you have been doing.

I don't know if Matt is still taking anyone into his private group or not. Maybe he will see this and answer you about that.

Carroll


Hi every one
Weak up what is going on is there any things happen to this thread I was out for amount and when I came back I found that this thread is dead.

Hi Matt
is you still there,
Don’t you worry about your thread any more you start this from the first don’t you care for it any more
And what is the issue of the privet group I was looking to do this so badly and when I did the first step you abandon the thread and walk away taken with you a privet group what about us,
I am speaking for myself I bought things for the big switch cost me more than 1000$ and you know about it what shall I do with it throw it away or what please think again there is many people in Iraq depending on me to help them having this switch my father and my mother I promise them that I will help them find the way to end their suffer from the electricity so please think about them .

God bless you

Ehsan
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:49 AM
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Hi folks, Hi ehsan, you know ehsan, Bedinis radiant charger results are just as promising.
Bedini charged twelve 12 volt-450mah sla batteries with only one 12 volt-450mah sla battery.
I have set aside matts TS temporarily to work on getting results with radiant spike charging and it is giving promising results.
Also, minoly is charging 500AH battery bank with a small 12 volt battery.
small Battery charges Large Battery - YouTube
You can give this a try with your parts and still come back to the tesla switch, it's up to you, all is possible.
peace love light
tyson
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:06 PM
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Hi folks, Hi ehsan, you know ehsan, Bedinis radiant charger results are just as promising.
Bedini charged twelve 12 volt-450mah sla batteries with only one 12 volt-450mah sla battery.
I have set aside matts TS temporarily to work on getting results with radiant spike charging and it is giving promising results.
Also, minoly is charging 500AH battery bank with a small 12 volt battery.
small Battery charges Large Battery - YouTube
You can give this a try with your parts and still come back to the tesla switch, it's up to you, all is possible.
peace love light
tyson
Hi Tyson

long intresting video
yes its promising .why not I can give it a try and i dont think it will cost much but i need a detail and schimatic so i can replicate.
keep on the good work

Ehsan
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Old 12-07-2011, 07:15 PM
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Hi ehsan, thanks for reply, check out joule ringer thread. Were discussing that a little.
peace love light
tyson
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Old 12-07-2011, 08:47 PM
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I hope we can rejuvenate this thread again. I've got the Board of Education board and the BS2SX stamp, the radio shack transformers and recently received the 3KW transformer too. I'm revamping my garage and building a couple of work benches right now but as soon as that's done I'm wanting to get back into this Tesla Switch in a big way... except for the latest few posts this thread seems to be all but dead...

I sure hope this is not the case...

regards,

Luther
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:08 PM
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Not Dead

This thread is not dead. If you have been following it like some of us you would have seen over the years it gets quiet and then takes off again. I know Matt is real busy with work right now but some of the rest of us are still here. If you have questions about the TS Matt designed I will try and help. If you have your own ideas of how to do things I probably will not be able to help you very much except to tell you if your idea has already been tried by those of us that have been on here for a while. There are some that seem to think Matt or some of the rest of us owe them something. Matt was very generous to share an interesting design with us. He never promised you would be able to run your house or car on what he showed us. He freely gave it to us so we could take it and see what we could do with it. There are several people on here that have built the circuit just like Matt said to and have gotten it to work very well. I am sure they would be glad to help anyone else also.

Later,

Carroll
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:12 PM
thaelin thaelin is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 91
Hi all:
Just recently aquired a dead 36v UPS which donated a nice transformer. This is what I have been looking for. Under normal use, it puts out 125v, at 12v input it should put out about 1/3 of that. Great for a tester on this kind of system. More as time permits.

thay
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