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Old 10-05-2011, 02:07 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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5Kw home power methane system - help needed

Guys lets build this. Ideas needed please, ill build it and open source it. Its been there ALL the time, we have kitchen scraps, why not make into energy.

some starter ideas
The Methane Midden - Heat / Energy with Compost by Robert Frost — Kickstarter

Ash

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Old 10-05-2011, 02:37 AM
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Methane Biodigester How To - YouTube
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:33 AM
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http://www.mrec.org/pubs/Anaerobic_Report.pdf
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:52 AM
kawsarat45 kawsarat45 is offline
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I am really comply with this article. It is a valuable and charming article for all. Everyone please visit this site and discus about this post each other.


led lamp
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:56 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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Guys here is a small genset running off methane, forget the non working GEET
Tiny Biogas Generator - YouTube

another
First test of our biogas converted electric generator. - YouTube

20Kw
20 KVA Genrator Runing on Biogas - YouTube
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Cherryman Cherryman is offline
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Guys here is a small genset running off methane, forget the non working GEET
Tiny Biogas Generator - YouTube

another
First test of our biogas converted electric generator. - YouTube

20Kw
20 KVA Genrator Runing on Biogas - YouTube
Hmm intresting idear Ash.

I Got a small generator
But it could light camping gas lights (heat as well)
I have a small fridge that can run on gas
And of course cooking

One of the first questions would be, how much biogas would we need?
In this article they claim continuously running capability of the waste of one human: Poop powered motorcycle

In other words, it would be great if we could get some calculation of wastbin size and gas output. Then everyone could calculate the seize they need for their powerusage.

Here is a very simple startsetup: See this guy using a watter bottle to power a burner for a stirling: From cow poop to shaft power! - YouTube

Good idea!

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Old 10-05-2011, 04:06 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Here's my take

Ironically, methane digestion is not something thts very practical for an individual household to do, as I understand it.Even if you count all the crap you and your family produce, AND the organic material from the kitchen, etc. you wouldn't begin to generate the amount of methane you would need to come close to producing the energy needs of your household. At least that is my 'take', based on my research.

If you have a farm/ranch, with 1000 head of cattle, or pigs, etc. THEN it makes sense. Also, it takes a storage system to store the gas, which is cumbersome, as the gas isn't produced under a lot of pressure, or you need to expend additional energy to compress it.

I have wondered about using an "Oxygen generator" to compress such a gas, or the gas produced by converting plastic to fuel, as described in another thread by Jetsis, which also produces a certain amount of a flamable gas like butane. I have seen used oxygen generators selling on craigslist fairly inexpensively; they are basically a series of compressors, each one slightly smaller than the one before, and a zeolyte 'filter' which pulls the nitrogen out of the air.Remove the 'filter', and you have a compressor which SHOULD be capable of compressing methane or butane to the kind of pressures necesary to make storing it practical, (I think).

I did read that just 1 sewage treatment plant in LA runs 10 1000hp diesel engines off of the methane gas produced by the sewage plant. They tap into them to run various pumps, etc., but the main reason they set up these diesel engines in the first place was it was the safest way they could conme up with to dispose of the gas! 10 1000hp diesel engines, running 24/7 is a LOT of gas, and represents a lot of energy. Seems like they COULD be used to run generators, to produce electricity, OR the gas cold be piped back to the same houses that are producing the sewage, to be used to cook and heat water.But no, they burn it up in diesel engines, as a safe way of disposing of it!

I have long thought this was an underdeveloped resource, (Methane gas), however while I personally LIKE decentralised, on site and DIY solutions, I think this MAY be one that is more practical as a centralised collaborative effort.

IF, and its a big IF, we sorted our garbage, with all organic material going down the garbage disposal, and piping the methane from the sewage plant back to the homes.IF we seperated our non-organic waste, so it could be used to produce liquid and gaseous fuel, and IF the houses were made as energy efficient as practical, its possible that a community COULD be established that ould be energy efficient.

It would require lifestyle changes most people would, as yet, be unwilling to make, I'm afraid.We would have to be moved away from our whole consumerist, bigger is better, more will make me happy culture, and I see nothing, AS YET, to indicate significant moves in that direction.

Anyway, Methane is greatly underexploited, even with the few companies that HAVE begun to work with it.Thats my take, for what its worth. Jim
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:02 PM
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Needs 90F to work

It's a great idea but doesn't work for home use in Oregon. We only have one month that comes close to 90F temps. so it's a no go for here. If you live in a place where the temp. is 80-100F year round then it's a great way to power one's home.

Reactors are very easy to make, just a big large rubber tube that you feed waste and seal up. Put an exhaust pipe in the middle to draw the methane and you're there. On the other end of the tube is great manure to use in gardens. But, the enzymes do need 90F to live and convert waste.

Our dump does burn-offs of their methane, such a waste. They've got the buildup of waste to heat the pile to 90F+ so it works for them. But, for residential, not so much.

- On second thought, I guess I could build a solar sweat box... but it would chill up pretty bad at night though...

rw

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Old 10-06-2011, 01:52 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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Guys also seems like a good idea for those with GEET generators that never worked, we have some our selves. Think all those with 10KW or 5KW genset should make this set up cheap and run Bedini motors or some thing, seems cheap

what do you think?
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Old 10-07-2011, 06:57 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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2 different enzymes

I believe there are 2 different enzymes; 1 lives/produces at 90-100 degrees, the other at 130-140, (going from memory, here). Yes, of all the technogies, this is probably the 'simplest', low tech out there. Unfortunately, as I said, an individual, or an individual household, is not going to produce enough gas to make it practical, from my understanding.As in "Oh, boy! I spent 200hrs. and $5000 and got a system to work! It takes ALL the waste from my household, and produces methane gas, and a liquid fertiliser!",....."Gretat! So,...your energy self-sufficient, then?" "No, actually, I produce enough methane, every month, to run my house water heater for about,....an hour."
This may be a slight exageration, but this is the problem, as I understand it.

One thing that DID occur to me, but I haven't gotten around to actually TRYING it; put a snorkel on the end of a piece of hose, say,...300' long.Feed the snorkel end into the 'vent' for your houses sewage system, and on up into the sewers.Run the other end of the hose thru a 'bubbler', to act as a 1-way valve.then feed the gas from the bubbler to the intake on your genset.

Their MIGHT be enough methane gas, in the sewer system, mixed with air, to run a genset. Is it stealing to use the gas that the sewage treatment people think of as a nuisance, anyway, and just burn off? I don't know, but I'm sure they would shut you down for safety violations,.....if they knew

Anyway, in this way you might very probably get enough gas to run a genset, 24/7. If so, this would probably be the most practical way for one individual household to operate on 'free' methane gas. Unless you have a 1000 head ranch, of coarse.

The real 'killer' is that methane gas is a 'greenhouse' gas; I saw one 'study' that said that the cattle raised in the US put out far more greenhouse gas every year, than all the auto's put together. Coarse, cattle manure isn't putting out particulates, etc. this was JUST talking about 'greenhouse gases', Jim
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Old 10-17-2011, 02:55 AM
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Real simple designs here guys
Animation of a simple telescoping biogas digester - YouTube

And
How to Build an Anaerobic Methane Digester - YouTube

Vietnam and India decentralize the grid this way, They power gensets and more.
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:35 AM
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check the simple design i just posted, wonder what the MATH, is on that with what waste and how much gas it needs to at least HALF your power bill,

you could at least half or lower power bill CHEAP with a simple kitchen scrap model, or use it to power a genset charge your batteries,
irregardless its SAFE and CHEAP back up power(or saving)

Ash

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Old 10-18-2011, 06:19 AM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Ash,

Not trying to be negative, just realistic/practical. I got REAL excited, back in the 60's-70's when I first read about this. I imagined running my house off the methane gas from my families waste; sewer and garbage scraps, maybe some rabbit droppings? Feeding it to a genset, and telling the UTE co. to stick it, while running all sorts of electrical appliances, etc. off it.
Never actually DID it, but I did research it, and FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, your NOT going to run the 'typical' house; that is power it totally or primarily off of methane.We just use too much power, and our 'waste' doesn't produce enough gas.
Now, if you eschew the 'standard' lifestyle, which is very energy gobbling, and use methane as 1 of several different alternative sources, and don't figure its going to supply ALL your needs, then yeah, its definetly do-able.
In fact, its the lowest tech of the 'alternative' energy sources out there.

It could be used in conjuction with jetsys "Plastic into Diesel", for instance.Because even tho the system he is working on produces a fuel like diesel, and a fuel like gasoline, it ALSO produces a gaseous fuel, like methane/butane. No reason why that gas couldn't be stored with the methane from the digester. And, he has to heat the plastic up, in order to do the conversion process, but I'm not sure the gaseous fuel produced is enough to operate the system, by itself.Methane could 'fill' the gap, perhaps?

And, something I've been thinking of for that project, to store it more practically; I see used oxygen concentrators on craigslist all the time, going fairly cheap; $100-$300 ea.) Saw the inside of one, once; its a series of graduated size compressors; so the output from the first comprseeor goes into a slightly smaller compressor, and so on, in order to compress to considerable amounts. And, it has a zonolyte (?) filter, to remove the nitrogen.
Not sure you would need that, for this purpose. I don't think these oxygen concentrators use a tremendous amount of energy, so it might be practical to use. Also wondered about a wind turbine, running a compressor.

Like the idea of used 'propane' refrigerator, as they run on a little pilot light, which is on, 24/7. If your not going to compress the gas, you want to use it as it is being produced, because storing it takes a lot of space, and DOES have certain dangers. Wonder if such a refirgerator could be modified, to be an A/C unit? Should work, in which case you could use the gas to refrigerate food, and perhaps cool your house? Just didn't want people having flights of fantasy, like I did, and imagining they could get all their energy needs, from the poop and garbage they produce, is all.
Actually, could also look at a produce (plant) that would give you the most gas, with the least amount of work/land, and grow the raw material. And, animals are still a great bet; rabbits would be good, as the waste would be very easy to collect.Unfortunately, according to Rick, if you try to sell them, as pets or as meat, the FDA will shut you down Fuggin go'ment. They would also probably find you in violation of something, if they found out you were producing more than a farts worth of methane.Jim
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:58 AM
wings wings is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtweth View Post
Guys here is a small genset running off methane, forget the non working GEET
Tiny Biogas Generator - YouTube

another
First test of our biogas converted electric generator. - YouTube

20Kw
20 KVA Genrator Runing on Biogas - YouTube
A Small-Scale Bio Dig Ester Designed and Built in the Philippines by Gerry Baron

sazzad
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:47 AM
Savvypro Savvypro is offline
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The real 'killer' is that methane gas is a 'greenhouse' gas; I saw one 'study' that said that the cattle raised in the US put out far more greenhouse gas every year, than all the auto's put together. Coarse, cattle manure isn't putting out particulates, etc. this was JUST talking about 'greenhouse gases', Jim
Because of that cattle study, there is a group in New Zealand who are trying to develop a bacteria "supplement" to give to live stock, so that they would produce less methane. But here is kicker, a lot of the cattle in the study were feed on corn - food the cattle are not able to digest properly, thus the methane production. If the cattle are feed on what their biology evolved on, then they would produce less methane and the corn could be used for alcohol production. Actually it's better to make alcohol from the corn then feed the processed corn + yeast waste to the cattle than the corn. But that's a different story altogether. The morel of the story is that people are wasting time and energy to develop a complex solution, when the actual solution is to stop being incompetent and stupid (feeding cattle food they can't process) and feed them what they evolved on.


On a different note; Here in the UK there is a buffalo farm which uses all the rear end waste of the buffalo to create methane to use as a fuel source to run the farm. They also sell the solid waste once it's been digested as garden compost/fertiliser. They use a large digester setup and have about 50 to 100 buffalos.

I also saw a horse stable use the rear end waste in a low tech way. They have a pit/trench which they just dump the crap in. With in the pit they have water pipes which zig zag the pit. As the crap decomposes, it heats the water in the pipes. I believe they also sell the decomposed crap as compost/fertiliser but they only extract the heat.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:36 AM
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Thanks Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
Not trying to be negative, just realistic/practical. I got REAL excited, back in the 60's-70's when I first read about this. I imagined running my house off the methane gas from my families waste; sewer and garbage scraps, maybe some rabbit droppings? Feeding it to a genset, and telling the UTE co. to stick it, while running all sorts of electrical appliances, etc. off it.
Never actually DID it, but I did research it, and FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, your NOT going to run the 'typical' house; that is power it totally or primarily off of methane.We just use too much power, and our 'waste' doesn't produce enough gas.
Now, if you eschew the 'standard' lifestyle, which is very energy gobbling, and use methane as 1 of several different alternative sources, and don't figure its going to supply ALL your needs, then yeah, its definetly do-able.
In fact, its the lowest tech of the 'alternative' energy sources out there.

It could be used in conjuction with jetsys "Plastic into Diesel", for instance.Because even tho the system he is working on produces a fuel like diesel, and a fuel like gasoline, it ALSO produces a gaseous fuel, like methane/butane. No reason why that gas couldn't be stored with the methane from the digester. And, he has to heat the plastic up, in order to do the conversion process, but I'm not sure the gaseous fuel produced is enough to operate the system, by itself.Methane could 'fill' the gap, perhaps?

And, something I've been thinking of for that project, to store it more practically; I see used oxygen concentrators on craigslist all the time, going fairly cheap; $100-$300 ea.) Saw the inside of one, once; its a series of graduated size compressors; so the output from the first comprseeor goes into a slightly smaller compressor, and so on, in order to compress to considerable amounts. And, it has a zonolyte (?) filter, to remove the nitrogen.
Not sure you would need that, for this purpose. I don't think these oxygen concentrators use a tremendous amount of energy, so it might be practical to use. Also wondered about a wind turbine, running a compressor.

Like the idea of used 'propane' refrigerator, as they run on a little pilot light, which is on, 24/7. If your not going to compress the gas, you want to use it as it is being produced, because storing it takes a lot of space, and DOES have certain dangers. Wonder if such a refirgerator could be modified, to be an A/C unit? Should work, in which case you could use the gas to refrigerate food, and perhaps cool your house? Just didn't want people having flights of fantasy, like I did, and imagining they could get all their energy needs, from the poop and garbage they produce, is all.
Actually, could also look at a produce (plant) that would give you the most gas, with the least amount of work/land, and grow the raw material. And, animals are still a great bet; rabbits would be good, as the waste would be very easy to collect.Unfortunately, according to Rick, if you try to sell them, as pets or as meat, the FDA will shut you down Fuggin go'ment. They would also probably find you in violation of something, if they found out you were producing more than a farts worth of methane.Jim
Thanks Jim, the urban environment would be a challenge especially with those regulations etc, i still like the idea of a back up power unit with that drum idea, however check out how small they can be done for emergency heat.

Homemade Biogas Generator - YouTube
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:35 PM
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wonder what the MATH, is on that with what waste and how much gas it needs to at least HALF your power bill,

you could at least half or lower power bill CHEAP with a simple kitchen scrap model, or use it to power a genset charge your batteries,
irregardless its SAFE and CHEAP back up power(or saving)
Hi Ash,

Not sure about that setup, but here is a video which shows a 650 watt generator will run for about 3 minutes on around 100 liters of biogas. It all depends upon what one's electric power needs are, but just for example my September usage was 300 kilowatt hours. Now let us assume that if a 650 watt generator runs 3 minutes on 100 liters biogas then a 1,000 watt generator would consume 154 liters of biogas in the same amount of time, since (1,000/650) x 100 = 154. To run for one hour, and produce 1 kilowatt hour of electric power, would thus require 20 times that amount of biogas, or 3,080 liters. Therefore, if I wanted to produce 300 kilowatt hours and eliminate my monthly electric utility bill using biogas, it would require 300 times that amount, or 3,080 x 300 = 924,000 liters, which equates to a daily biogas volume requirement of 30,800 liters. Since there are roughly 30 24-hour days, or 720 hours, available each month, my required daily average run time to produce 300 kilowatt hours would be 10 hours (300/720) x 24 = 10 hours. There is no question that many a household could meet its electric supply needs using this example of a 1kw generator running 10 hours a day if power usage is planned wisely. The question becomes whether or not it is feasible to produce and maintain an output of 30,800 liters of biogas during a 10 hour period, and of course that depends upon the size and efficiency of operation of the digester unit being employed. Remember that 3,080 liters per hour equates to 51.3 liters per minute, or nearly 1 liter per second, and that is a considerable amount of biogas. It is said that 1 pound of cow manure at 28C degrees can potentially produce about 1 cubic meter of biogas. Whether or not that amount of gas could be produced in just one day remains to be seen, and of course would depend upon the efficiency of the digester. If such an amount could be produced in one day, it would therefore require 2.4 pounds of manure to produce 1 cubic meter (1,000 liters) of biogas within a 10 hour period, or about 74 pounds to produce 30,800 liters during the same amount of time. Now supposing that it might possibly take 5 days to produce that amount of gas from 74 pounds of manure, it stands to reason that it would require about 888 pounds of manure to produce the desired amount of gas (30,800 liters) in 10 hours. In the 5 day example, that 888 pounds of manure would equate to around 111 gallons of slurry, so this should help give you some idea of the digester size that might be required if 5 days were the case. Remember that if the 5 day example were to hold true then you would actually be producing biogas at the rate of 73,920 liters per 24 hour day (3,080 x 24), and would require a digester capacity not only to hold the 111 gallons of slurry, but to also have adequate headroom for the volume of gas being produced. If you are continuously using about the same amount that is being produced then you won't require much headroom, but if you were to run a 1kw generator only 10 hours a day then you would want to utilize as much of the excess volume of production as possible for cooking gas and heating hot water, etc., and you would still want to provide for adequate expansion of any excess gas not being fully utilized. Remember that 3,080 liters of biogas per hour equates to over 50 liters per minute, so the rate of expansion is quite rapid.

As another example, gas engines require about 1/2 a cubic meter of methane per horsepower per hour to maintain idle speed, so if you are thinking about running a 5 horsepower generator engine on biogas, your requirement would be 2.5 cubic meters per hour, or around 2,500 liters (42 liters per minute) to run at idle speed. At high enough rpm to obtain the rated output of the generator head, you are going to consume considerably more biogas.

Incidentally, the YouTube channel which I linked to at the beginning of this post has several excellent videos about biogas production and enhancements, including the use of brickage weights to obtain the desired output pressure, and a solar heating apparatus used to raise the internal temperature of the biogas digester.

Last edited by rickoff : 10-20-2011 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:17 PM
gene gene gene gene is offline
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Do not use 2 stroke engine

Hi all,
Thanks Rick, for doing the math.
IMHO the 2 stroke engine used in the video posted by Rick, will not last long. In a 2 stroke all bottom end (crank shaft & rod bearings) are lubricated by the oil & gas mix which is drawn into the crankcase before entering the combustion chamber. The lubrication must be introduced with the gas.
Fortunately most larger gen sets have 4 stroke engines and this is not a problem.
Gene
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:50 AM
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Shadesz Shadesz is offline
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Hi all,
Thanks Rick, for doing the math.
IMHO the 2 stroke engine used in the video posted by Rick, will not last long. In a 2 stroke all bottom end (crank shaft & rod bearings) are lubricated by the oil & gas mix which is drawn into the crankcase before entering the combustion chamber. The lubrication must be introduced with the gas.
Fortunately most larger gen sets have 4 stroke engines and this is not a problem.
Gene
I wonder if bubbling the gas through a pneumatic lubricator would do the trick? In the end though, 4 stroke is better.

Rick,
To my knowledge it takes up to a full month to fully digest material anaerobically, in optimal conditions....
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:50 AM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Nice,

I am glad he got the funding to continue this experiment.

Here are the helpful links I found from my time with Jean pain ( you can see the thread I created for this on this board )


But here are some good links on this issue..


Good compost ->

composting part 1-Paul Taylor - YouTube


PANDSCORP — Maximizing Resources . . . Making Life Better



Hot Water and Methane, plus Compost, from Wood Chips? | Green-Trust.Org



http://mariposagardens.org/Handouts/...l_Displays.pdf



Another Kind of Energy



Heat free (nearly) with a compost furnace Energymd – Practical Alternative Energy
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:01 AM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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hurrumph

Yes, thanks Rick, for providing the #'s to support what I was trying to say; it takes a lot of s*it, or whatever, and a big unit to supply all your emergy needs, even if you only use electricity 10hrs. a day.

On the its being used in China, etc. In my research years ago, don't know the source, I saw something which said in a part of the world where this is more common (China, India?) a calculation is made, when hiring an employee, as to whether he lives too far away from the workplace to go home at lunchtime; if so he is a more desirable employee, because he's more likely to,....contribute some raw material to the digester, to the employers benefit.

Does seem to me like evergreen trees produce a lot of needles, and they do it year round.Wonder how good a 'raw' material that is. If you had enough acreage, and an efficient way to collect the tree droppings, might be a start.Especially if you had a couple hundred cows/goats as well.

Wonder what you could do with breeding plants or animals which would produce ideal 'raw' material, and/or selecting for qualities that would make collection as efficient as possible.I should think goats would be better than cows, and rabbits would be ideal; just have a sloping trough onderneath the row of cages, and let gravity do most of the work! Jim

Oh, and I totally agree as to the insanity of feeding cows corn, and then giving them hormones and anti-biotics, to deal with the natural result of feeding them corn, when the evolved to eat grass! What an insanity.
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:27 PM
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rickoff rickoff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gene gene View Post
Hi all,
Thanks Rick, for doing the math.
IMHO the 2 stroke engine used in the video posted by Rick, will not last long. In a 2 stroke all bottom end (crank shaft & rod bearings) are lubricated by the oil & gas mix which is drawn into the crankcase before entering the combustion chamber. The lubrication must be introduced with the gas.
Fortunately most larger gen sets have 4 stroke engines and this is not a problem.
Gene
You are welcome, Gene, and you are also correct in your assumptions concerning the use of 2 stroke engines with methane gas. Methane gas is a very dry gas, and even when used in 4 stroke engines this poses a problem in that the top piston rings have inadequate lubication. Thus, the upper ring or rings will wear prematurely and also cause scuffing of the upper cylinder walls, leading to loss of compression. To get around this problem, an oil injection system must be employed to add a small but adequate amount of lubrication with each intake stroke. The oil used for this purpose should be of a very light grade. One that comes to mind that would be quite suitable is Marvel Mystery Oil, and there are others.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:41 AM
gene gene gene gene is offline
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Hi Rick, I totally agree with you on the importance of top cylinder lubrication. As an after thought I realized that I did not address this in my previous post, and am glad to see that you covered this, for I believe that valves & valve guides, as well as the rings & cylinder, would all suffer without proper lubrication.
Do you think methane gas is dryer than LP gas? I think you can buy generator sets that are set up to run on LP gas.
Regards, Gene
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:14 AM
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Gene , dutch, mart, Shadesz, Rick
you guys remind me why you guys are our future.

@Savvypro sending you some Bio fuel resources in next 2 days,
Thank you ALL and yes i do love you all.
gonna test this , this year and next BTW

Thanks Rick

Ash
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